Healthcare: The Tipping Point

Ah, yes. Attack not the ideas, but the person.

This is a real problem. However, the solution is to change what is said, not who says it. See the responses that state there is need for reform that still oppose this bill.

More of the personal attacks, I see.

As far as the illegals go, the only thing they should be given is a single-use parachute and an impromptu skydiving lesson over the Mexico-Guatemala border. Why do they only get 50 an hour? It’s because the people that hire them know they can get away with it and won’t hear complaints.

Your Aetna card can’t be used as an official ID. And of course non-payment for services rendered is actionable. It’s a little something called theft. Further, coverage for major emergencies only (something termed ‘catastrophic coverage’, oddly enough) is something that insurance companies would love to be able to offer, but are barred from offering by the federal government.

You’d be surprised at what kinds of people choose to be uninsured. Whose business is it to tell the person in his late-20s/early 30s who doesn’t smoke, doesn’t thrillseek, and just doesn’t get sick that he Must Have Insurance??

I’m going to guess you mean ‘plagairized rant’ (because I didn’t rant on plagiarism), but sure, I’ll link where I got the quoted sections from again, since I did that in the OP: Library of Congress’s THOMAS site: Full Text of HR3200. Somehow, though, I doubt using publically-available works is plagiarism as much as it is research.

You mean “set standards” right? Afterall, I KNOW you’re not trying to word it into a scare tactic. You’re much more of a civilized human being than that. A “bureau” will be set up just like there is one setting standards for the minimum an employer can pay his/her employees, the type of pesticides that folks are allowed to use, etc. It’s a default to have. Has the private insurance industry done a good job without checks? Dropping people after they develop serious conditions through loopholes they find from when a person fist applied? How about denying you coverage because of a pre-existing condition?

You want to talk about bureaucracy? How about my mother had an odd skin discoloration and makes an appointment with a skin doctor (Dr. Olmstead in Twin Falls, ID Woot!). They tell her on the DAY she has her appointment after scheduling it 2 weeks in advance that her insurance company called and that she needs to get a referral. However, because of this case they make her go to a doctor an HOUR of traveling time away instead of her local doctor who lives a 2 minute drive away from our house. After scheduling that appointment and getting the referral (literally walking in and out in 3 minutes), then she has to call the insurance company to tell them, and THEN she has to reschedule with the dermatologist. Yeah, THAT wasn’t done to discourage her from getting treatment.

So fucking what? Should illegals not get the same fire fighting or police benefits either?

This is one of two things:

  1. A bold-faced, malicious lie.
  2. You willingly saying “fuck it” to actually checking how these possible changes would change the Social Security and Old Americans Acts.

Want to prove me wrong? Pull up those two bills and input the changes these sections would do, and then post it for everyone here to see.

So if you choose the public option instead of your own private health insurer, you:

A. Get a quote of cost much like a car, life, or health insurance provider would give you (The government will monitor your finances)

B. Get an ID card that you can show for your plan, much like Medicare recipients use their cards (create a de facto national ID card)

C. Get to choose to have your healthcare costs be paid out of your bank account for your convenience, if you so choose to take this choice (as well as have access to your bank accounts to pay for your healthcare)

Oh, you mean you get to look at different health care plans the government will offer, such as a basic, enchanced, premium, and premium-plus plan? Yeah, I agree with you: FUCK being able to see how care is rationed under the different offered plans.

Yeah, fuck the government from trying to make it so that young adults who spend all their money and stupid shit have to have health insurance so that when they get sick, something can cover it. Afterall, they should be allowed to spend ALL their money on stupid shit and then when they get sick, tax-payers can pay for their costs because they don’t have the money. Makes perfect sense, my friend.

I honestly can’t even see how you, or whoever fed you this twisted that. Please show me this “essence” of how this added to section 1833 of the Social Security act means cancer is a death sentence, because I really don’t see how your mind is working here.

the problem isn’t that people are going to the hospital, the problem is that it that it costs $600 for a doc to conduct a 5-10 minute exam and prescribe medicine that costs $3.

lots of non-doctors graduate with tens or hundreds of thousand dollars of student loan debt that they willingly took on, what makes doctors special?

polls that show the average american is ambivalent towards the new healthcare bill are irrelevant, obama won the election saying that he was gonna pretty much do exactly what he’s trying to do now also it’s not as if the opposition (eg republicans) have proposed an actual alternative so they need to stfu and hope the masterplan works out.

You CAN’T compare tens or hundreds of dollars to 300K. Unless you mean thousand.

And doctors ARE special. Have you ever thought of the stuff they must have to deal with? The training it takes to become a doctor? Learning new things all the time when in the profession? Possible law suits for frivolous shit? The job itself, looking after peoples’ health? There’s a lot of stuff I’m forgetting, but doctors deal with and pay a whole lot to get where they are. Not trying to flame; I’m just saying. Medical costs are a bitch with diamond fangs, but doctors deserve to get paid. Assuming they’re doing their job.

And Acllaim, I’d give you rep if I could.

Part of the problem is in the second part of his post you quoted. The amount of money that doctors have to spend on malpractice insurance is obscene. And it’s precisely because lawsuits against doctors have resulted in equally-obscene judgements.

People have to realize that even with all the advances in medical science, doctors are still human, and therefore they can make mistakes. A misdiagnosis or slip of the forceps is going to happen at times, and while the results will suck, that doesn’t entitle the patient or their family to several million dollars. Medical malpractice should only be actionable when there’s clear negligence or carelessness, which is where the term originates. Further, why is it doctors that get hell for ‘being greedy’, while completely discounting how much lawyers get for pursuing ‘malpractice’ claims?

It’s precisely that overhead you quoted that commands such a high price. You wouldn’t sell a custom stick for less than the cost of its parts, would you? It’s basically what you’d be asking doctors to do.

Oh Canada :angel:

lol yeah that is what i meant. if you’re not rich and went to a decent private school then you or your parents are $100,000+ in debt.

but anyway, doctors are ridiculously overpaid so the fact that they have to pay out their ass for malpractice insurance gets no sympathy from me. pharmacists are another group that are overpaid considering what they do, and i’ve been told this by pharmacists.

Single payer is the way to go. Here is why:

It’s cheaper than the excisting system because it cuts the administrating and profit costs.

Single payer is cheaper for the consumer. It’s not like paying a tax is so much worse than paying a premium. And if you loose your job, you still have to pay premiums, but under single payer if you have no job = no taxes.

It’s tried out and it works. I know you americans don’t much like france and other european countries, but you should learn from what others do right! France has cheaper and better healthcare and 100% coverage.

And cut the shit that it will be too expencive. Your country has the most exspensive healthcare in the world. If France can do it, so can you.

This is where I live:-D
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I hate to see it but France does do that correctly. I have family there and when I visited them I was pleasantly surprised at their health care system when I visited an Uncle in the Medical Hospital.

korea has universal healthcare that seems to work out pretty fine as well. i was in the hospital for 3 days/nights, had numerous x-rays and catscans and only had to drop ~300USD…would’ve been about 1,000USD if i didn’t have the national healthcare plan (that everybody who works gets)…in the states i’d probably have to pay 5-6x that.

they take 3% of everyone’s check and puts it towards the national system.

Moore’s movies are generally bullshit films meant for entertainment purposes; Sicko is no exception.

However, America IS the only country in the developed world that doesn’t have universal healthcare, and we are the country that pays the most. It’s reality that places like Canada that have single-payer, and Britain where it’s straight up socialized healthcare, have some of the best systems in the world.

idk…apparently in canada tonsil removal is no longer covered for any reason.
-according to canadian ESL teacher with chronic tonsilitis who didn’t seem to think canadian was all that great.

Socialized healthcare is such a emotianally loaded term. Americans hate the word “socialized”. Be my guest, you can be a capitalist proponent, no problem! But capitalism AND socialized entities is what you have already.

Your fire brigades, libraries and police are all socialized systems in your contry. We just socialize healthcare as well (and prisons…). And it works.

Some things are best left alone from profit incentives…

Last I checked, the satisfied/very satisfied percentage of people in Canada was over 80%, and I highly doubt that tonsil removal bit. Tonsillectomies are necessary in cases of recurring infection. Also, I think tonsillectomies are needed sometimes for sleep apnia but I’m not positive. Don’t quote me on that one. :stuck_out_tongue:

Congratulations, neighbour.
At least we have you beat in gender equality in the government, according to that! For whatever that’s worth… :rofl:

Still, it’s a bit different for US since they’ve had this system for so long… With a sudden change of the system like this, seems like the result could go either way. Impossible to predict.
But then again, I’m no good at politics.

Edit: Also, I think Iceland has you beat in the country tier list now…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Best Care Anywhere: Why VA Healthcare is Better Than Yours:wink:

Yeah how dare those who take the time to gain enough knowledge and experience to regularly ensure our good health let alone save lives be paid more then others!

I have a lot to say on the subject considering it’s been a huge area of interest for me but I’ll save that for another time for now all I have to say is the private field lobbyists better not be good at their job otherwise many people are fucked.

how dare you not understand what “overpaid” means!

I dont understand some people cant afford healthcare…that really need it…

I guess that we really do think about ourselves ove others in the end.

I love Sweden. Your country is imo better than ours in many ways. But we have so much oil, so its better to live here. Actually norwegian youth are having a hard time getting jobs in our capital because you swedes work better and for less.

Regarding Iceland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Icelandic_financial_crisis
We have a lot of Icelanders moving to Norway because of massive debt and high unemployment.

I feel sorry for those guys…

Oh, ouch. Now that you mention it, I remember hearing about Iceland being in financial trouble… Seems serious, that’s sad :xeye:

Anyway, let’s not hijack the thread with this, it’s slipping away from the topic at hand…

The scale of the US reform seems so massive, has any reform of any kind of this size been done before to a country that big?