lol bison usually eats hibiki.
Your saying that its not worth picking a counter character when it is assuming you know how to play the character
No one ever said you cant just stick to your team and work it out but the thread is about counter picking and it clearly is worth it and my example earlier in the thread shows you an example of a perfect situation where someone should/would switch
All those players you named dont even win I bet if they counter picked their bad match ups they would win alot more
Counter picking is generally in my opinion a viable option.
For instance, if you play a p-groove team (like say team makoto or whatever) That team is really, really, really, good at playing to basically all of p-grooves strengths (and if your not into the whole kyo thing always switch in sagat and that team is still beastly)
Now if you come up dead even, and I mean you and the person your playing are the exact same skill level, and they play some cheezy a-groove team, like A-rolento, or vega (for meter), Sak, R2 Blanka, the matches will generally be close but I bet 7 outta 10 times you’ll probably end up losing causing you took were forced to block a custom that eventually guard crushed you and you lost some life, and then they run away and p-groove (basically the least mobile groove) can’t really do much to stop it, then they get meter again and hey same situation you get chipped and crushed and comboed blah blah blah. Now lets say you just happen to learn the dynamics of that same team, maybe switch it around a bit say C- Vega, Cammy R2Sagat and now the match is pretty dead even I’d say, it could definetly go either way as long as your smart about it. And then against everyone else you can rock them with your hot p-groove skills. Or whatever. So basically Flash is right, counters exist if you are good enough to play your character in P, with a little adjusting you could play in C and win those bad matchups so on and so forth.
Of course countering also isn’t for everyone, people like to think it’s dirty or unfair or some other such bullshit… But hey if it gets you wins that do it, just make sure you don’t get counter countered or some bs cause if you lost the first, won the second, you might just get fucked in the third cause your counter team (ala some of viscant crazy counter teams) Might just get countered hard.
Guess I interpreted that wrong, lemme restate it, what counters Bison?
What counters Hibiki?
Thanks in advance.
Bison doesn’t have too many counters. I think Blanka usually does well against him. But Bison’s a-groove comeback factor puts him on even ground with everybody in the game so nobody has a big advantage over him.
Hibiki loses to Vega, Sakura, Bison, Cammy, Rock…
On counter matches:
For Vega, I’ve had good success using Nakoruru against him. A/N/K grooves all work out. I suspect that N/K grooves are best for her (great short jump, great run speed) but since I choke the super combo almost every single time I try it, my best Nako is A groove. Once you make him block the bird you can get in easily with either dash or run. From there you have decent close pokes (stand jab, low strong) you can combo off of easily and a crossup he has trouble with. It’s not a perfect match, but it gets the job done more often than not.
For Hibiki, the only matches I ever don’t want to play are against K/P Sagat and Bison. Other groove Sagats I think Hibiki is strongly favored in. I’ve been told that she has problems with Vega but since I only play Hibiki in K groove, it’s not so much of a problem for me personally.
For Bison I’ve always had best success with Chun or Cammy and I don’t even play either of them very well. It’s hard to say who counters Bison because he’s two different characters. Any of about 15-20 characters will do fine on him without meter. Bison with meter probably doesn’t have any counters. Ideally you want someone with a fast walk speed so you can throw his spacing off and force him to whiff a poke or make a mistake trying for 1 hit scissors and then kill him from there, so that’s why I’ve always felt best about Cammy.
Personally though, I believe that Bison doesn’t really have a lot of counter characters.
Counter charactering is more difficult in CvS2 than in other games because most people only play 1 groove (or only feel tournament capable with 1 groove). So even if you find a good matchup that you think is strongly in your favor, you might not ever be able to take advantage of it. Say you like N-Iori against Honda (a match I actually like a lot and is fairly easy to break down). It doesn’t matter as strongly in CvS2 as it would in any other game because nobody plays N groove in tournament. So instead of straight countering, you just go with 3 strong characters that don’t really have bad matches. It’s another of those built in features of CvS2 that make you pick Sagat whether you wanted to or not.
–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com
Japanese tournament rules require one team throughout, and they are all single-elimination. You are allowed to switch order and ratio, but not your characters.
And here, Rugal, Chang, and hell, even Haohmaru (at least in casuals) are still in the game… :lovin:
that’s a pretty good rule. makes me want to play in japan even more now. thanks for the info.
Bane of my existence. I now play Sagat because I “have to”, not because I actually like playing him.
viscant, did u invented the 50/50 super with yamazaki after a knockdown
Very interesting subject.
Just going to answer according to the topic question…
I actually am often getting my R2 Rugal raped by blanka, but i stick to my C guile-Sagat-Rugal team because I like them.
Sometimes I feel like i really don’t have any chances of winning, and start thinking about switching for cammy, (which work quite well against blanka when i use her), but i end up feeling bored to play with her. I don’t like the character.
So i go back to my previous team and training again and again. Switching order and/or ratio is the best option i used so far.
I think it is absurd to blame people who play just for counter, strategy is part of any fighting game after all. So i don’t think it’s a bad idea at all to play counter character, but this solution wouldn’t work for ME^^ I would just feel like i gave up on my characters. Maybe a stupid kind of honor i know 
The counter character/team mentality has existed since the dawn of SF, and although the trend has been single character/team for as long as I can remember, that doesn’t mean the former is any less useful. Sticking to one team/character tends to be the predominant choice because of the following:
1. identity
Most players want (subconsciously or not) to be well known, and a huge part of that is a unique identity. Character/team/color is all part of that. It’s an ego thing IMO.
2. comfort
Most players also feel a lot more comfortable sticking to one character/team and learning all the match ups. This is just common sense. Similar to how you won’t see Cro Cop go for the take down often, you won’t see Bas going K-groove, even if he theoretically has a better chance of beating a C-groove team.
3. tradition
It’s just the normal thing to do, and has been for the past decade. Almost every top-tier player has one main team that he is known for. This isn’t going to change anytime soon. Having said that…
I believe strongly that counter characters/teams are more efficient than the traditional system. Realistically? The traditional system is better, but that’s just because there aren’t a lot of people willing to use multiple characters/teams because it’s risky in the sense that it has no real history. Who has ever used this system to win or even place well at any major tournament? If any, not many. But that doesn’t really prove that the traditional system is better, it just goes to show that popularity and tradition will always triumph over something risky/new…and I use the term new lightly, since counter characters have existed forever now, it’s just that you don’t see many people use them.
Anyway, onto the meat and potatoes. If you look at a game like CVS2, in my eyes, I see the counter system broken down like this:
C > A > K > C
Keep in mind, that IMO, the counter character (CC) mentality holds up well AS LONG AS YOU STICK TO TOP-TIER. There are plenty of examples where a lower tier character can counter a top-tier one, but that’s mainly on paper, and the inherent qualities of a top-tier character can often be too much for this supposed counter. In CVS2, I believe those qualities are: good supers/customs, a LOT of supers/customs (C/A/K all get tons of super opportunities), and good pokes.
Now, here’s what I believe:
C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat > A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega
A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega > K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat
K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat > C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat
A strategically chosen mix of any of the groove’s best (IMO) characters beats a team of the groove it counters. For example, IMO C-Honda/Sagat/Blanka2 beats A-Sak/Bison/Blanka2, mainly because C-Honda > A-Sak, and C-Sagat > A-Bison. A-Blanka beats C-Blanka IMO, but it’s pretty close, and a lot of the problems other grooves have trouble beating A is because A-Blanka pretty much has no bad matchups.
Now, note that I didn’t choose some random low-tier character to counter A, because IMO that’s just incredibly unrealistic. As I said before, the inherent strengths the top-tier have is too much for even a paper counter to deal with.
Basically, CVS2 in my eyes is broken down into that set of three (C/A/K), and the counter process first starts with groove selection, than with team dynamics.
Now, I’ve also applied this to other games, for instance, in 3S, I believe that all you really need is Chun, Ken, Makoto, and Yun, who all counter specific characters HARD, with Chun having the most counter matchups. In Alpha3, it basically breaks down to V-Akuma/Charlie/Chun/Gief/Sak and A/V-Sim. In ST, you have Sim, Vega, Rog and O. Sagat.
Essentially, it all comes down to countering with the established top-tier, but it’s the matchups of the top-tier that can create the hardest counters for any other character in the game.
Excellent, excelltn post Mihai. Couldnt agree any more
March 2007? Where have you been??? Welcome to the forums. Nice post :tup:
Overall I agree with what is said, but I want to put forward that the characters listed should not be the only ones thought about.
What is listed are some of the best characters in the game, but most of the important upper-mid tiers are missing. Honda, Guile, and Chun are great, but not necessarily more important or more played than Ken, Kyo, Iori, and Rolento.
I know you are emphasizing the groove strengths, but some of the macth-up you have still don’t fly. C-Sagat doesn’t counter A-Vega, it works the other way around. Like wise you’ll almost never see a C-Honda versus A-Sakura, as few people play Honda competatively.
I appauld your principles, but what I see happening in play doesn’t match-up. Outside of A groove I see mostly CBS varients, mostly based on play style and character preference. I guess the longer I play CVS and spend time in the community, the less theory actually stands up.
Lol…I been here since 2001. This is Geese. Thx tho.
I don’t think A-Vega counters C-Sagat at all. It has to do with damage and opportunities, which are both in Sagat’s favor. While Vega can theoretically keep him out, tourney matches have shown that once any of the heavy hitters open Vega up, it’s basically game over for him, since he takes damage badly, and he can’t make comebacks. And people playing CBS is just a testament to what I said about people sticking with what works. I’m not even going to accuse people of not innovating, because I’m all for doing whatever it takes to win, but I don’t see how the stuff I posted is theory. On the contrary, I tried to be as realistic as possible. As for characters that are MIA, trust me, I thought about that, and it wasn’t without hesitation that I excluded them. I do use C-Ken, or used to at least, but I don’t think he is top-tier in C, and I KNOW tons of people will disagree with me, since he is a staple of C groove, and has been for the past few years (big thanks to Daigo/Dan/Choi for that). And I also know that there are beasts who can ravage people with Kyo (Makoto), Iori (buk), and Rolento (forget the big names), I just don’t think they can do anything better than the characters I posted. Kyo is best in P (imo), and that already is a big limitation which I think tends to be overlooked when judging some characters, Iori (as proved by buk) can be a beast in N, but while buk is a very good player (and he’s one of the players who’s vids I enjoy watching the most), I just don’t think Iori can cut it. Don’t confuse player skill with character potency. Finally, Rolento can be very annoying, and even do some damage when he’s on a hot streak (ambiguous crossups mainly), but he gets cut down quickly (like Vega) if he gets pressured/pushed into a corner, he doesn’t trade well (with his anti-air strong, for example), and it’s hard for him to make a comeback (once again, same weakness as Vega, but Vega has other things going for him that elevate him well above Rolento imo).
I hope you stated this from watching big tourney vids or casuals at big tourney vids, and not from what you have played/seen 1st hand. I think of CBS players as people who got sick of their unique team losing when they know they can win and just decided to go with the top tier heavy hitters with the least bad match-ups possible. People with unique and original teams like buk, otk, and iyo are the type of people I like to see win the most since they don’t have your team CBS and A-are varients. Then you have your people with their unique character(s): Makoto and Buk Mihai named, CrazyAssKim (C-Rolento), Leezy (K-Kim), Combo (his A-Rock days and now his K-Ken), Rai (K-Mai), Pinokio (K-Chun), Desora (K-Raiden), Bari (K-Gief and C-Chang), Shiro (K-Yama), and others who play Cammy in their team without Blanka and Sagat are also nice to watch. Its more entertaining then watching mirror matches waiting to see who gets the 1st PTF/Sho Sho and all the usual stuff from the top tiers. Its the people with the unique character(s) that make this game interesting because it shows the potential of what you can do if you just put the effort into it.
The theory works as long as you know all that is needed, frame advantage, pokes, bad/good match-ups, execution in combos, RC/Parry/JD, set ups, mix up, sticks to practice on, and time and dedication. At first of course you won’t probably win matches then you should win but thats all about experience to get better.
Mihai, I’m surprised you said K-Hibiki when shes ranked high-mid tier in A-groove. Could you give me your opinion on that?
I think A-vega > C Chun, C Guile, and C Honda.
A-sak > C Chun, C Guile, C Blanka, C Sagat
It basically comes down to two things in my mind. First off, the A-groove characters I listed do everything she does better IMO, and second, in K she is a much more solid character with run/rage/JD/low jump. I’m sorry for being so generic, but that’s just how I see it. It’s not like anything is set in stone. There are people who rep with A-Hibiki, and there are people who rep with N-Hibiki (buktooth). When it comes down to it, a man can figure out a few different ways to do something, all of them effective. The rest comes down to that man’s will, the way he applies his beliefs, his dedication, and his competition/experience. As long as your characters are fundamentally strong (meaning they stay true to what the game revolves around [in CVS2’s case, that’s the ground game and supers/customs]), there’s a good chance you can win a national with them.
I figured since I never see any A-groovers play Hibiki except during the early tourney days. I myself like playing K-Hibiki, a character well suited for me.