Has the success of SF4 and MVC3 made it better or worse for other games? This question is also towards the other Capcom games such as ST and VSAV.
Has Capcom helped the genre? Or just helped itself and damaged everyone else in the process?
Personally I think that leap of having 10X popularity is something the rest of the genre could not handle, but it still changed everyone’s expectations accordingly, towards a non-realistic level. So at this point the true value of everything else, when overshadowed by the big 2 games, looks diminished.
So now it’s harder to get events for other games going and get noticed. Now no one will give a shit about you if you can’t bring 10X bigger numbers than 3 years ago. (An unrealistic request for most of the scenes.)
It may be similar to the years when Smash (Melee) was the most popular game in the US by far. Did Smash’s competitive success really help in the long run? (I really don’t see how.)
Have Smash players become permanent, active members of the community? (An extremely small % compared to the people who went as they came.)
I have heard people in the SRK staff talking about SF4,MVC3 etc. as “gateway” games to the genre, in that they’ll lure new people in and the new people will eventually stay for the main course which are the more hardcore, niche games.
My question is- So far, does this seem to get the result you hoped for or does it not?
DISCLAIMER: I don’t compete but I love watching tourney streams and the like.
Tough question. I’m inclined to say attention towards fighters, even SF4, is hardly a bad thing, and motivated other developers to make their own offerings. Ed Boon even said as much, saying SF4 is the whole reason a new 2D Mortal Kombat was made.
Obviously, Capcom/Namco/Netherrealm having money means being able to sponsor Evo and the like, and get their games spotlighted. It’d be nice if whatever “residuals” (PROTIP: I have no idea what they are) could be used to include worthwhile side tournies (i.e., Skullgirls).
Honestly FGs as a competitive genre is still a niche, people tends to just play SFIV, UMVC3 and MK9 just because they are made by big AAA companies and had advertising everywhere. Average SFIV/MK9 players do not look to other games because they don’t care about the genre itself, they care about SF/MK and that’s it. A lot of people still thinks that after Capcom vs. SNK 2 there were no fighting games in the industry until SFIV with the exception of Soul Calibur and Tekken (and Smash, if you want to count it), also a lot of people just play SF/MK because they are “oldschool” games of his SNES/Genesis era… what the hell, i remember cleary tons of people asking “wait, Capcom made Street Fighter III?” when IV was announced.
So watching other games, at least to me, is just when you just love the genre and SEARCH for more. I don’t think SFIV “hurt” other games, they just doesn’t exist… and don’t let me start talking about the “lol animu gaems” shit, that is one of the biggest drama.
SF4 didn’t ‘revive the genre’ so much as bring focus to what little the mainstream already knew (SF, SoulCal & Mortal Kombat).
The better, yet less ingrained series’ (SNK games) still struggle. Capcom is making their games popular, but have no responsibilities to help their direct competition garner a community.
I believe people do eventually spread out into other games after entering the genre. I was one of them, I started with SF4 but then branched out fairly quickly to BB, Super Turbo, and the like.
The problem is that the number of people that do branch out isn’t very large. A significant majority of SF4 players only play SF4, is the impression I get from talking and playing with people. I encountered a similar thing with Starcraft, where people that started with SC were reluctant or even hostile to trying any other RTS game. People tend to want to stick to the comfortable and familiar.
Like you said, very few people do that. Mainly because these entry level games are incredibly braindead and easy, and moving over to other games is like completely re learning how to play FGs
Agreed. Marvel vs Capcom 3 got me to try out MvC2, but most people who play Marvel 3 that I know have no desire to play Marvel 2.
I don’t think it’s just that. I think graphics plays a large role in stopping people from trying out older fighting games. It’s like, “Why would I want to play a fighting game with ugly sprites (MvC2) when I can play one with cool-looking 3d models?” Never mind the huge gameplay differences between the two.
“SFIV revived the genre” is the most common myth in the FG community, is a great game but it only revived the interest in the franchise, in some cases depending of the mentality of some players they will show some interest in other FG but this is someway complicated because now is a common trend to reward players with a false sense of achievment in every gaming genre (FPS, RPG, MMO, etc).
At least in my local community the things are different (we are 26 players), a lot of people plays KOF XIII instead of UMVC3, the ammount of bullshit in the marvel makes KOF XIII a heaven for a lot of gamers and some of them started with SFIV.
I don’t see those games as “gateway” games at all. It’s just too easy to go back to the easy games, there’s no reason to move to the higher level games at all:
-they aren’t played by everyone
-they aren’t new
-and most importantly, THEY ARENT STREAMED D=
In the MvC2 PSN thread, there will always be the occasional guy who comes in and goes “I want to learn this game, MvC3 is too easy mode!” and then never posts again because he gets stomped in the old game and instead of driving to get better, the response is more “fuck this old game, no one plays it at majors anyway ill go back to 3”.
It’s helped the genre…SF4 and MVC are great entry level games, highly visible, recognizable titles and the popularity/larger player base is beneficial for all fighters. If players decide to get into them, try to get better, join in discussions on online communities, there’s always the chance players will branch out and at least test the waters with other games like BlazBlue, KOFXIII, SCV, Skullgirls, just to see what else is out there. I don’t see how MVC3 or SF4’s popularity would have an overall negative effect on the fighting game scene…some players might stick with them solely, and that’s fine, but if playing SF4/MVC gives players the confidence to delve into the perceived “more hardcore” games with less fear because they have some experience, it’s not really a negative. Frustration can also encourage players to try new stuff, and if nobody was playing SF4/MVC3, they wouldn’t try anything else.
I could see how SF4/MVC3 success might be detrimental to maintaining communities with older titles, and as much as ST/VSav have mechanics that people prefer, etc, newer titles in HD/widescreen with freshly done graphics for current gen systems and their bells and whistles are selling points that have to be addressed. Shallow reasoning, but people want new stuff, whether it’s flashy visuals or something new to discover…and roughly around the same time everyone else is learning it. It’s tough to get new players to latch onto games that have had things set in stone(perception again)for 10+ years.
As for it being harder for other games to get events going…older games maybe, but newer games? I don’t agree. Side Tourneys at SF4/MVC3 gatherings should become the norm since PS3/360 can cover most of the games, Shiny New Game will get crazy hype from the internet itself if it looks halfway decent. If the game sucks, nobody will play, and with as much exposure as games are going to get these days, it’ll hopefully encourage developers to strive for something unique and of respectable quality.
Look at the job ArcSys did with BB, NeverRealms with MK and what SNK has done with KOF13 compared to 12. BlazBlue got a little confusing with it’s pricey and odd structure for CS…CS2…etc, and MK got a little slaphappy with the updates, but clearly the smaller developers realize that they’re gonna have to do a pretty impressive package to gain ground on Capcom. Win fans over with sheer quality, the rest should take of itself. In a perfect world anyways.
Fighting game developers need to port their old games to XBLA and PSN.
It needs to be done right. 3SO is the perfect example of what not to do.
Good internet code is a must, be it GGPO or a propriety interpretation. No client-side prediction = you’re doing it wrong.
The popularity of SF4 has nothing to do with the inability of Japanese developers to capitalize on their classic fighting games. It’s 100% a development problem.
In the case of Skullgirls (an indepedent project based in the states) I’d feel more optimistic releasing it now than in 2008. It doesn’t really seem like old games or the anime games have gotten much trickle down benefit from SF4/MvC3 though. I’d be interested in hearing from players not from North America though. It seems like certain countries (thinking of France in particular) have been able to keep some the older games scenes’ alive better than anyone else (besides Japan ofc).
I started of playing sf4 and then went to mvc2, ex+alpha, super turbo… I mean I played them growing up but only understood them later on after learning fighting games
I think it’ll help that Mike is putting in some genuine effort in making a game that reaches out to newbies while still retaining the things the core players love. Stuff like infinite detection, unblockable protection, the smart input system (input windows are non-arbitrary, instead each direction is allotted 4 frames, plus an extra 4 for traverse between directions not beside each other plus an extra frame or two for the attack input), no jumping when doing 360s, etc.
A lot of Skullgirls mechanics are pure scrub bait in the best possible way. Of course scrubs think any time they keep getting hit they’re getting unblockabled and every combo over 10 hits is an infinite so they’re gonna be disappointed once they actually play the game, but still.
If you gather ST and HDR together, it has definitely leeched players from those. SF4 killed HDR: there is no question about it. I believe the main issue there is HDR: if the game was done right, and - more importantly - if it was not postponed so much, people would have had access to a SF2 game for enough time. For instance: it would have been the one main game at EVO, as there was no SF4 yet. Then the chances of SF4 reaping players from it “just because” would be lower. Way less players would have jumped on the SF4 bandwagon right away, cos they would play it and realize right away it was not SF. But SF4 arrived too soon, and the legions of new players could not be descrubfied.
When it comes to ST alone, then SF4 still did some damage, but not much. The number of players in GGPO did not change, for the most part. Some left to SF4, but some came from HDR, too.
The HDR idea was great. I wish Capcom would try it gain, or allow some company to try it with some more support. The graphics are ugly and simple, the animation is bad and the new music is really bland. As for the gameplay, half the characters (old versions) were removed, and many ST players used a few old characters. They could stay. As for balance, I think Jumpsuit’s idea was a bit better: keep the Ryu-Guile-DeeJay-OKen tier unchanged, and have others get near it. Oh, and having a game with no damn extra input delay. That PS3 version is unacceptable.