Warchicken put up his proof-of-concept video for a straight hard tag to Strange over in the video thread.
Now I’m curious: who would be the best third for a Firebrand/Strange team?
I have been wondering that too. In my opinion I think the best overall firebrand/strange team would be firebrand strange ammy. But I also like brand strange skrull since bolts is so ridicules for skrull and you can hard tag strange even if they take the hit from tenderizer.
After seeing this I’m giving the edge to Skrull. Unblockables with Tenderizer. Bolts is a fantastic assist for both characters. And FoF raw tags for both characters.
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT.
Got my new team guys. Screw Doom, I got a new Doctor in the house.
Are you playing Firebrand/Skrull/Strange or Firebrand/Strange/Ammy?
Skrull. I’m trying to learn Ammy, as well, but I’m not nearly good enough with her yet.
@UnSaxon51.Firebrand/Skrull/Strange makes a lot of sense.
I’ve been sitting down and watching so many Firebrand matches from Zak, Apologyman, Kresent and Angelic. I formed a few opinions about Firebrand.
The Firebrand/Dormammu shell is beyond good. If Zak used Dormammu’s current infinite now and learnt the raw tag combo I made with Dormammu. I reckon he would still be wrecking people. He used Dormammu so well and never over extended himself. Kresent has a godlike zoning Dormammu and Angelic has the best hit confirms with him. Dormammu allows for your team to truly approach matchups for different angles.
Firebrand needs a lockdown assist way more than a dedicated neutral assist. The beams rarely ever come into play because Firebrand players never bother to cover it and are normally at jump/super jump height anyway. Those neutral assists are better for assisting the second character than Firebrand in my opinion. Firebrand normally uses then to abuse Demon Missile M and mag round Bon Voyages.
Rapid Wall Cling fireballs need to be abused more. They’re broken. I’m seriously considering getting a Hitbox to see if I can exploit it. Also, Kresent is right. Zoning with Firebrand is great.
So today was the first day that I played Marvel since Final Round. I got a nasty blister on my thumb during Final Round because I used a new controller without breaking it in, and I kind of needed a break after playing so much.
I want to say that anyone who hasn’t used Molecular Shield with Firebrand should check it out. While I haven’t gotten to try it out in match yet, I’ve already noticed its uses. Being a slower start up assist, I recommend having something that starts up fast on your team. But this slow start up actually works out in conjunction with Firebrand’s moves. At full screen, calling it at the same time as shooting a fireball makes it really easy to follow behind the rocks. A well placed fireball at this time can force them to block the rocks and allow for a 50/50. It’s also really good in protecting Firebrand from heavy rushdown, like Wolverine.
It’s really good for incoming mix-ups. The delayed start up allows you to jump and Bon Voyage on incoming. If they take the hit, rocks won’t ruin the confirm. If they block it, they fall into the rocks and you can mix them up. You can also change the timing of your Bon Voyage to cause a cross up instead. Devil’s Claw can be used similarly.
This brings me to my thoughts about Doom and his different assists with Firebrand
Spoiler
Plasma Beam
I think this one is the “go to” assist. In any match-up that neither Molecular Shield or Hidden Missiles excel in, Plasma Beam is the default choice. It gives him extra durability and ground control when he takes to the skies. It makes ground cross-ups safer and is the best for assist sniping. It is also the shorter duration assist and leaves no hitbox after he leaves the screen, so it is the assist that allows the most hard tags into Doom.
Match-ups to use Plasma Beam: vs Hidden Missiles, vs Drones, vs Plasma Beam (you duck it, they probably don’t) vs Jam Session, vs “assist sniping” characters (Akuma, Dormammu, Hawkeye, Dr. Strange, etc), vs ground based zoners (Chris, Hawkeye, Nova, C. Viper, Wesker)
Hidden Missiles
Hidden Missiles is the longest lasting of the three, so it means you get to hard tag the least with this one. It can also mess up confirms, but Firebrand’s easy conversions nullify this with experience. This assist allows for Firebrand to zone the best, flying around and avoiding the fight. It is also very useful for Firebrand because it lets him go for riskier stuff, since it can save him. His ground control is very weak with this assist but it’s not too hard to call Doom. However, because it stays out so long, this assist is the easiest to snipe and provides you no “immediate” assist. It is also the least useful for incoming mix-ups out of the three.
Match-ups to use Hidden Missiles: vs aerial based “zoners” (Magneto, MODOK, Doom, Morrigan, Zero, Storm, Thor, V. Joe, Trish), vs slow/big characters (Hulk, Nemesis, Sentinel, Haggar), vs Vajra, vs most low tiers or characters with poor mobility and no sniping capabilities, vs Super Skrull
Molecular Shield
Molecular Shield is kind of a combination of the two. It stays out for a bit longer than Plasma Beam but provides the slow moving projectile similar to Hidden Missiles. It can save you, the traveling rocks have a lot of blockstun, and it provides for the best incoming mix-ups. It’s not particularly amazing at full or close screen, but it’s still very useful at both. I haven’t gotten a lot of experience with this assist yet, but I’m already realizing the potential of it combined with a very patient and defensive play style.
Match-ups to use Molecular Shield: vs ground based rush down (Wolverine, She Hulk, Spencer, Firebrand, Spiderman)
I’m working on Firebrand/Doom/Akuma right now. I’ve really wanted to use this team because Tatsu is really good for Firebrand, but I’ve been struggling with what assist to use on Doom. Plasma Beam’s short duration made it hard to decide between it or Tatsu, and Hidden Missiles stayed out so long that I didn’t use it very often so that I could use Tatsu… I’m hoping that Molecular Shield will give me that middle ground so that I have Tatsu for close range battles and Molecular Shield for mid/far range battles. Both of them are useful for incoming mix-ups and resets. I don’t have very many unblockable set ups but I can do the Sphere Flame one with Molecular Shield, and I plan to TAC infinite often.
While I don’t think Akuma is comparable to Vergil, Phoenix, or some others, I think he has become an underrated anchor. I was sad to remove him from my main team for Doom, so I am really looking for a reason to run him. It’ll be one of my side/counterpick teams though.
Can I get some opinions on Firebrand/Dr. Doom/Akuma?
I do believe that Firebrand/Doctor Doom/Akuma is a decent team. It allows for Firebrand to be next to you all the time until you get opened up almost like an even more rabid version of Justin Wong’s team.
However, I don’t think that Doom/Akuma is particularly good, because it doesn’t allow him to do much more than he does already.
Firebrand/Dormammu/Doctor Doom is better while using Molecular Shield assist. Dormammu can actually take advantage of Molecular Shield assist really well, because it fills gaps in his zoning/flowcharts, but more importantly it staves off the rushdown a bit better.
In a lot of ways I think your original team of Firebrand/Dormammu/Akuma is better than both. Let’s face it Doom is a necessary component when it comes to raw tags for Firebrand. However, there are going to become more and more avenues to get raw tags without him and still get good damage.
Oh, and I agree with you. Akuma has become an extremely underrated anchor, but he’s also still a very useful anchor. Depending on the characters in front of him he still provides an good/reliable assist for a lot of the upper tier characters and deals with the late game in a match well.
It’s a misconception that Molecular Shield is a slow assist but it’s actually ridiculously fast.
Plasma Beam M assist is 46f startup.
Molecular Shield M assist is 34f startup.
Double Lariat is 32f startup.
I’m glad I dropped Shuma-Gorath and merged my Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath and Vergil/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath teams together. I did enough research through all the good Firebrand players to see what he did and didn’t need and instead chose the better anchor (best, lol).
I can still raw tag from Firebrand off reliable confirms without Doom. Either by tagging in Dormammu waiting and calling Rapid Slash in corner, doing a Flame Carpet and then dash jumping into a jump loop. Or by calling Demon Missile and doing a Flame Carpet, dashing then pressing St.M into Launch.
I kinda wish I used Akuma myself, I could prolly get better midscreen stuff.
Thanks for the write up, Kresent. Let’s keep this thread active.
So I have been thinking a lot about Firebrand/Strange/Dante and I think this could be top three firebrand teams. You get a lockdown assist with jam and a beam with bolts, Brand and Dante both can tag into flame loops and you can get the death loop. I would love some feedback on this.
It automatically sounds awesome. Jam Session is amongst Strange’s best assist and I’m very sure it’s an excellent choice for Firebrand as it provides FB with an unblockable option.
Please try and take this team all the way. I reckon it will be devastating.
Hmmm. I really have to disagree here. I ran Firebrand/Dormammu/Akuma for a long time and its problem isn’t in its damage, but its meter build. Unless you are going to TAC, you won’t build enough meter off of most first hits to be able to kill. Even if you do, you normally won’t have any meter for the second character. You could hard tag into Dormammu, but he really didn’t affect meter build that much. TAC or DHCing into Firebrand from this point will be less effective than if you just kept Firebrand on point.
This team also has problem with handling zoning and characters that control full screen very well.
On the other hand, it was very good vs ground based characters like Viper and Wolverine.
What I meant by slow assist is that it takes time before the assist travels. It starts up super fast but you don’t have any moving projectiles until after they have spun around him for a bit. It’s not a bad thing, though.
I think you really underrate the ACCESSIBILITY of Doom’s hard tag. There are a lot of characters you can hard tag into from Firebrand, but Doom is one of the only ones who can convert both midscreen and full screen. If you’re in the corner, you can use XF to tag and kill.
Most characters can only convert when midscreen or in the corner. Most of them don’t have any way to OTG in time SOLO off of a full screen Bon Voyage. Along with that, most of them don’t have the HSD or damage/meter build to make it worth tagging most of the time.
This is why I think you are underrating Firebrand/Doom:
[details=Spoiler]>He has 100% consistent tags outside of the corner
This means that you can always tag to him outside of the corner for good damage. You can even side switch to make it work. He has both a fast c.L for when you hit them on incoming, and a fast OTG for full screen Bon Voyage pick-up.
>All three of his assists are good for Firebrand
All three of them have different uses and cover different match-ups. I know you don’t think Plasma Beam is his best assist, but you don’t focus much on what he is giving ALONGSIDE of that assist. You get a long one for zoning and protection (Missiles), a middle one for zoning and approaching/mix-ups (Rocks), and a fast one for durability, approaching/mix-ups, and ground control/assist sniping (Plasma Beam). Plasma Beam is important because even if you get a conversion at the end of Plasma Beam, you’ll have enough time to hard tag. Rocks and Missiles can mess up these hard tags, even though they are still really good for Firebrand.
>TACs and DHCs
The TAC infinite is obviously a huge benefit to anyone, but it’s particularly useful for Firebrand because of the amount of meter it builds, and because you are guaranteed to be able to Sphere Flame -> Luminous Body into the mix-up or unblockable of your choice EVERY time you get a TAC infinite. The DHCs are good too because not many characters have strong hypers that hit as high as Dark Fire leaves them. (Ground or air) Photon Array is also really good for DHCing into Luminous Body. If they block it, you can get left/rights or high/lows. If they take the hit, you can convert and then hard tag back into Doom. Sphere Flame into Luminous Body is good for mix-ups on airborne opponents or trying to force them to block your assist. OTG Photon Array into Dark Fire is also really damaging.
>Synergy
Doom synergizes with just about everyone, but (again) it is particularly useful for Firebrand. Along with all of them benefits he gets from Doom, Doom also works well with most of Firebrand’s best partners. Dormammu and Amaterasu in particular, but also with Skrull, Dante, Vergil, and others. [/details]
TL;DR: Doom makes Firebrand a more “complete” character. He gives him any form of assist he could need. He gives him all the damage and meter he needs through TACs, DHCs, and hard tags. He synergizes well all of Firebrand’s best partners, usually allowing unblockable set-ups. Firebrand backed by Doom has no problems except for those inherent to his moveset, such as not being able to go up with his air command dives.
Key reason: You can hard tag into Doom off of almost any Firebrand confirm for good damage and meter. The only characters who come close to or beat the (meterless) damage that Doom offers off of a hard tag are Shuma and Dr. Strange. However, Doom is the only one that has consistent conversions and damage at every spot on the screen. Everyone else needs an assist to pick up, or needs to be at a specific distances from the corner.
Thoughts on my main team
[details=Spoiler]
One of the idea scenarios for my main team is this: Get a hit with Firebrand, hard tag to Doom, DHC/TAC into Dormammu for the kill. This leaves me at Dormammu/Doom/Firebrand. I really like this set-up because I win with Dormammu most of the time during it because of all the excess meter and ability to TAC/DHC to Doom. But I also like this because Doom/Firebrand gives me a second chance to get Firebrand on point backed by Doom. The combination of Doom’s and Firebrnad’s hypers make it really easy to DHC into Firebrand and start offensive. But this means that my team now has access to XF2 AND my TACs/DHCs/Hard tags. This basically means that even though the team never wants to play Doom on point, I will always have accessible damage for Firebrand.
It functions similar to Doom/Vergil, but Doom has way more (unique) synergy with Firebrand than Vergil does[/details]
I do like the team, but I don’t think it’s a top 3.
As I said above, not every hard tag can convert into Flame Loops. Bolts also stays out for a while, so you might not be able to hard tag all the time. You are also more reliant on TACs because of this.
I like the Strange/Dante pairing a lot though. Really good pairing with good assists. Only problems I have are that Jam Session scales so much and Firebrand doesn’t have the left/rights to abuse the final pushback on it. And the unblockable loop is the tightest with Jam Session. It’s really hard to visual confirm and still convert without XF/LB if they decide to take the hit. I also don’t like that Bolts wouldn’t provide any real mix-up chances for Firebrand, since he wants real blockstun from his assists.
It’s definitely a really solid team that is one of the better Firebrand ones. I just don’t think it compares with Firebrand/Dormammu/Doom, Firebrand/Doom/Amaterasu, or Firebrand/Doom/Skrull.
If there was a way for Strange to convert into Flame Loops off of full screen Bon Voyages, it would be a lot scarier. But he has no quick OTG for it.
Full screen bon voyage is a problem with the brand/strange shell however with dante you can do this…
From there i think you can do the acid rain into strange hard tag which gives you loops from full screen. Also the unblockable with jam session is a bit tight, but I think if you put an eye out after you kill with strange it will make it much easier to confirm.
I haven’t tested this out but in theory the flow chart is this…
Get the first hit then snap in another character. After that, call jam do unblockable if they take the hit x-factor confirm and hard tag strange. Kill with impact palm loop set eye where next character will be coming in. Tag firebrand back in and call jam session. If they take the hit from the eye, then you have those ten hits plus the hits of jam session to confirm into a combo where you would tag in strange to kill again. Do the same thing as before with their next character.
Sorry for the long post. I really would like people to point out flaws in this team that way I know what I can do to improve it.
The only problem is that the tag to Strange isn’t consistent if you come in with Impact Palm, which you would need to do if you were using jam session for your unblockable. If they get hit by jam session, the HSD is going to be so high already that if you come in with a light you won’t get enough reps of the loop, and IP is like six frames anyway.
I’ve been trying to get it consistent over the last few days, but I’m like five percent with it maybe. Firebrand/Strange/Ammy would potentially work, since you can use Veil of Mist to slow them down enough for Strange to come in with whatever he wants, but Strange/Ammy is questionable, and there’s no real unblockable there as far as I know.
You can use this video do help attach the Strange/Dante shell to Firebrand:
I saw that video, I’m definitely a fan. Unfortunately it doesn’t really solve the problem, since Firebrand doesn’t have any way to hard tag into dante without doing the side switch, which is specific to a relatively small list of characters, and none of the top tier are in there with the exception of Doom. Even if you do the side switch, after Beehive > million dollars, the HSD is too high to do the loop in most cases, or at least enough cases to make it impractical. Firebrand and Dante are both characters that crank up HSD very quickly.
It’s Marvel, so there’s probably something we’re missing which hopefully will reveal itself, but as of yet Firebrand with the Dante/Strange shell is not a complete engine.
I’m gonna make a note about this for people because it doesn’t seem to be known.
Ground Bon Voyage throws characters farther into the corner than air Bon Voyage
This means that if you do a grounded Bon Voyage near the corner, you throw them deeper into the corner than air Bon Voyage does. This also affects the range of whether your incoming character hits them or not.
This is really important to note when you’re looking at these videos. There are so many different ways Bon Voyage can hit based on your height, distance to corner, and whether it was air or ground.
As far as that Dante tag, it’s not as good as it looks. The entire second Acid Rain loop was only available because of Dark Hole assist. And the ending extension was only possible because he still had his ground bounce. Solo, it really doesn’t build that much meter and it obviously doesn’t do much damage. With Firebrand/Strange/Dante, you’d be hard tagging to Dante and then hard tagging into Strange. Both of them would lose all of their red life and that takes a lot off the timer if you’re in XF.
@UncleGary, I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. There are multiple side switch combos that work on everyone outside of the corner. You need your ground bounce on some of them though.
Also, Strange/Amaterasu is better than it looks. It abuses the THC way better than Doom does and Cold Star is pretty good for Strange’s style of chip+set up. Not saying it’s top tier, but it has its merits.
So what’s everyone’s main Firebrand team?
Apologyman - Firebrand/Doctor Doom/Super Skrull
Kresent - Firebrand/Dormammu/Doctor Doom
Angelic - Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath
Zak Bennett - Firebrand/Doctor Doom/Amaterasu
Udaterasu - Firebrand/Amaterasu/Vergil
Gamegeezer - Firebrand/Nova/Doctor Doom
Skillzdatkillz - Firebrand/Doctor Doom/Amaterasu
Tokikoo - Firebrand/Dormammu/Super Skrull
Marvisto - Firebrand/Doctor Doom/Taskmaster
warchicken - Firebrand/Super Skrull/Doctor Strange
Dr Babaganoush -Firebrand/Hulk/Sentinel
Chris G - Firebrand/Morrigan/Doctor Doom
Kimmor - Firebrand/Dante/Akuma
Tubazo - Firebrand/Hulk/Arthur
skyhighclaw - Firebrand/Ironman/Doctor Doom
Let’s try and compile all the players.
If you want to be troll-worthy you could also include
ChrisG - Firebrand/Morrigan/Doctor Doom
It’s not his real team by any stretch, but he did technically win a tournament with it.
Ironically, I think that team could be pretty mean. It’s biggest flaw is that Doom is going to be favoring one of his teammates over the other, but FB would appreciate the meter build and Morrigan does have a pretty decent TAC combo if I remember correctly. Not optimal, but certainly serviceable.