Guy vs Honda matchup

[Mr.BottledChi]

Discuss Guy’s match up against E. Honda in Arcade Edition here.

Here is the currently available frame data for E. Honda in AE. Note: There may be some errors.

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In this first post, you’ll find general notes about the match up and links to noteworthy posts.

[RIGHT](Toggle Spoiler)[/RIGHT]
SPOILER WARNING: General Notes
2012 Changes

Here are Capcom’s final documented changes for E. Honda in AE 2012:

For undocumented changes and discussion, please check out this thread in the E. Honda forums:

Honda 2012 Change Discussion

I’m aware that there’s a “What you want” thread already up, but with the Dev notes already flooding in I figure this would work as a clean slate to discuss the proposed changes Capcom’s making to Honda. So far: E. Honda Jab headbutt gets its upper body invincibility back. Strong headbutt loses it, so it works the same as Jab Headbutt did in AE (Lowe body invincibility to avoid stuff with). [H. Hundred Hand Slap]: Hit box towards the end has been increased, allowing for easier full combo hit…

[INDENT=1]Pokes:[/INDENT]

[LIST]
[]cr.LP, cr.MP, st.MK, and cr.MK should all stop E. Honda’s Headbutts.
[]cr.MP should always beat Honda’s st.HK at the correct range.
[*]Elbow Drop (down + MP in air) can beat Honda’s Headbutts and Butt Slams due to its hitbox.
[/LIST]
[INDENT=1]Anti-Airs:[/INDENT]

[LIST]
[]cr.MP is probably a better anti-air against Honda now in Arcade Edition than it was in Super (thanks to the nerf of Honda’s j.MP hitbox).
[]st.HK seems to be the best option at the correct ranges. If Guy is using st.HK as an anti-air in this matchup, this usually means that Guy is paying special attention to his spacing.
[*]cr.MK to beat E. Honda’s cross up attempts.
[/LIST]
[INDENT=1]Punishment:[/INDENT]

[LIST]
[]MP Headbutt is only punishable by EX Hozanto. HP Headbutt is punishable by both EX Hozanto and Run > Shadow Kick (Slide).
[]U2 can punish all of Honda’s Butt Slams on block, assuming that Guy is in range to grab.
[/LIST]
[INDENT=1]Shenanigans and Setups:[/INDENT]

[LIST]
[]Because of the startup throw invincibility of EX Bushin Flip, Guy can escape Honda’s Oichio Throw and deal 180 damage.
[]Cancelling an early cr.MP (against E. Honda’s Headbutts) into MP Bushin Flip gives Guy a grab setup. However, according to This_Is_K1, the timing is strict.
[*]xIROCx’s setups: After landing Run > Slide, back dash and perform MP Hozanto. MP Hozanto beats all non-EX Headbutts, all Hundred Hand Slaps, and avoids all Butt Slams (LK and MK will catch Guy on the way down). After landing Run > Slide, forward dash and perform LP or EX Bushin Flip. LP Bushin Flips beats all non-LP Headbutts. EX Bushin Flip will grab LP Headbutt.

Did some fun in training mode to find out this little bit of fun.
Record Guy doing this:

TC xx Run Slide, NJ HP OS Cr.mk. (Since you can still combo after HP since Honda cant do anything, do st hk. st.mp Runslide.

Now for the fun
This gets beaten if Honda has meter…

-LP Headbutt, will get beaten by the cr.mk for a HKD
-EX HB beats you clean

-ALL Buttslams will cause the OS to come out
-LP ButtSlam - but if you input the HK at the right time (aka autopilot), it’ll cause the slam portion to whiff and Guy will do -st.mp Runslde
-MP Buttslam - HK will beat the slam portion.
-HP ButtSlam- OS will come out, sthk will whiff but you punish with st.mp and runslide will comeout
-EX buttslam - will beat this as HK will trade.
[/LIST]
[RIGHT](Toggle Spoiler)[/RIGHT]
SPOILER WARNING: Noteworthy Posts

[LIST]
[]2010-08-02: MADma3str0 - General spacing tips with cr.MP.
[]2010-11-03: Losha - Alternate ways of dealing with Honda’s Headbutts, anti-air options.
[/LIST]

[de_BLOO]

Auto correct butt splashes can ruin your day as well, you need to time your jump-ins perfectly.

[Yun_the_new_king]

I think that you should play mind games because it is in honda’s favorite and punish butt slams with throws

[str_e_ak]

So wake up ex headbutt stops pretty much all of guys wake up shenanigans… -_- i DO know that a specifically placed elbow after f.throw can stop it, looks like a safe jump against him. You do f.throw hold upforward for first jump and on the second jump do elbow drop but not like when you do the j.mk/elbow drop crossup mixup thingie, earlier than that. I either get a counter hit or block ex headbutt and jump in on his recover for more pressure. Any tricks against Honda you guy players would like to share???

If you keep getting hit by wake up EX Headbutt, which hits on the 8th frame, start going for safe jumps with OS EX Bushin Senpukyaku. If the Honda players chooses to do EX Headbutt, your safe jump attack will whiff, but the EX BSK will come out and beat the EX Headbutt. If I’m not mistaken, Forward Throw > Dash Forward x 2 > Jump Attack should be a safe jump.

Here’s HeaTBlazn’s setup on Honda’s wake up:
[media=youtube]Xed0yO3hANc[/media]

Also, please tell me you’ll be willing to keep the first post of this thread updated.

I think that you should play mind games because it is in honda’s favorite and punish butt slams with throws

AE is a brand new game, and honestly, I don’t think this match up is in Honda’s favor anymore.

[Mr.BottledChi]

ak;5547628]If you keep getting hit by wake up EX Headbutt, which hits on the 8th frame, start going for safe jumps with OS EX Bushin Senpukyaku. If the Honda players chooses to do EX Headbutt, your safe jump attack will whiff, but the EX BSK will come out and beat the EX Headbutt. If I’m not mistaken, Forward Throw > Dash Forward x 2 > Jump Attack should be a safe jump.

Here’s HeaTBlazn’s setup on Honda’s wake up:
[media=youtube]Xed0yO3hANc[/media]

Also, please tell me you’ll be willing to keep the first post of this thread updated.

I will try to keep first post updated, ive never done it before XD but I will do my best, thanks for the advice, but do you any any other safe jumps? i only know the throw one and the one after run slide

[str_e_ak]

I will try to keep first post updated, ive never done it before XD but I will do my best, thanks for the advice, but do you any any other safe jumps? i only know the throw one and the one after run slide

You can look at the match up threads for Oni and Fei Long as a guide for updating the first post. You can look at The Super Guy Match-Up Thread as well.

After any untechable knockdown, Guy gets a safe jump against characters without fast reversal attacks. Here is a list of the ones I use:
[LIST]
[]Forward Throw > Dash Forward x 2 > Safe Jump Attack
[]Back Throw > Back Dash > Jump Forward Safe Jump Attack
[]Run - Slide > (hold up) Neutral Jump Safe Jump Attack
[]Bushin Flip Grab > Jump Forward Safe Jump Attack
[/LIST]

[obey562]

ex.tatsu seems to be the go-to OS here. but if he backdashes on wakeup, youre fucked lol.

punish MP or HP headbutt’s with either run>slide or ex.hozanto

[xIROCx]

*Ex Headbutt Bait into Ultra1 or 2:

RunSlide then quickly perform a Low Hozanto, then do an Empty Back Jump into Ultra 1 or 2. If done correctly you should cacth Honda in the recovery of his Headbutt. A clever way to land Ultra or any Punish you like.

*Ex Headbutt Punish on Wake:

RunSlide then Forward Dash once, then perform Guy’s Low Bushin Flip. Honda’s Ex Headbutt will actually Auto Correct but the Low Bushin Flip will grab him out of it.

*RunSlide Follow Up:

RunSlide then Back Dash once, then Quickly input Low Hozanto. Beats all Normal Headbutt, beats Command Grab, beats Honda Slaps and Whiffs against all Sumo Smash.

*Neck Flip Punish (running overhead):

Land crMk, Empty Back Jump, then Quickly input Neck Flip. This can beat Honda’s Ex Headbutt on wake. Risky, but Rewarding.

*Ex Headbutt frame trap:

Perform crHp (on block), then Quickly input Ninja Sickle.

[str_e_ak]

With the creation of this thread, I guess I’ll transfer the previous information about the Honda match up next.

[str_e_ak]

Mr.BottledChi, please check your PMs. Thanks. :tup:

Don’t forget to add obey562’s Honda match up video:
[media=youtube]umeKuhFaJAs[/media]

[xIROCx]

crMk Set Up;

crMk, Forward Jump with an Attack then upon landing input crMk again.

As far as I know it beats all of Honda’s Ex and Normal Speicals on his wake. It whiff against Honda’s Sumo Smash. The Low Sumo Smash is the only one that can hit you but you do have an opportunity to block, counter with a speical or dash out the way. After the second crMk, if you wait just a second or two, you can Forward Jump again and Cross-up Honda with Mk. You can rinse and repeat as long as you like just to play mind games with him to potentially set up bigger combos.

[Panesthesia]

I’m a Honda player and I must say, I’ve always found this match to be really really fun. Whilst the advantage is certainly with Honda in Super this match feels a lot fairer in AE. Hondas damage nerfs gives Guy more time for mix ups, it makes for a really interesting and fun match. Far better than waiting out full screen Boxers.

Shout outs to the recent wave of UK Guy players. All come out of nowhere damnit! Good shit Guys (…), Look forward to playing some of you!

[str_e_ak]

Mr.BottledChi, if you could copy the information below the line and paste it into the first post, that’d be great. :tup:

---

Here are Capcom’s final documented changes for E. Honda in AE 2012:

For undocumented changes and discussion, please check out this thread in the E. Honda forums:

Honda 2012 Change Discussion

I’m aware that there’s a “What you want” thread already up, but with the Dev notes already flooding in I figure this would work as a clean slate to discuss the proposed changes Capcom’s making to Honda. So far: E. Honda Jab headbutt gets its upper body invincibility back. Strong headbutt loses it, so it works the same as Jab Headbutt did in AE (Lowe body invincibility to avoid stuff with). [H. Hundred Hand Slap]: Hit box towards the end has been increased, allowing for easier full combo hit…

[Mr.BottledChi]

Done!

[nebbiez]

Hi Guys (…see what I did there?!) I’m pretty sure this is my first time actually posting here although I regularly drop in to catch up on the latest Guy discussions. I’ve been putting in a lot of work figuring out Guy’s hardest matchups recently. For me, they are Zangief, Honda and Deejay. I’ve been saving replays against great players where I think I’ve played the matchup how it should be played to give you the best chance of success, given the odds not being in your favour. Hopefully these videos should start appearing on Youtube later this week, I will keep you posted.

The most important tool I personally find against Honda is kara cancelling the overhead into LP bushin flip on knockdown. Both the timing and spacing for it to be most effective are extremely important. The position you’re looking for will open up the following possibilities:

• He takes the bait of the ‘fake’ overhead and goes for wakeup headbutt (doesn’t matter which version). Elbow drop behind him and run-slide for untechable knockdown punish. Followup with safe jump, mixup, etc.

• He thinks “I know you want me to headbutt, so I’ll wakeup butt stomp you out of your flip!” No Honda…no you won’t! You’ll go over the top of him before his butt stomp autocorrects and you can grab him out of it on the way up. NOTE: If he does the EX version, the 1st hit will catch you but the 2nd will whiff. You can quick recover and max damage punish this (but you obviously need enough health left to take the first hit)

• He goes for wake up back dash. Grab him out of his airbourne frames.

• He goes for forward dash to try and dash under you. Wrong again! Elbow drop punish into combo.

• He just holds back or down/back. Clever Honda! This is his best option and if he starts doing it alot then you’re going to have to start mixing up. In my experience I find most Honda players will initially wait for you to elbow drop, block it, then go for a safe headbutt assuming you will still be hitting buttons (as is typically Guy’s offensive style). I find if you do a backwards jump after the elbow drop is blocked, if they go for any version of headbutt you can use your elbow drop to cancel your jump arc and punish his whiff (or use MK if he goes behind you for a kinda pseudo backwards crossup). This also avoids all versions of butt stomp so you can run-slide punish that, untechable knockdown, etc etc. you know the drill.

As I said above I have a few videos on the way real soon to help demonstrate the theory. In the meantime, please let me know what you think! I recommend giving this a go as it’s helped me beat a number of the best ranked Honda players in Europe in recent weeks.

[SupahRreem]

someone mentioned a setup to bushin flip slam honda out of ex headbutt. well that setup might work for his ultra 1 too. I happened to bushin flip slam ehonda out of u1. i knocked honda down then did a bushin flip before he got up so it was somewhat of a delayed slam while i was flipping in the air. idk if u guys knew you could do that already if not there you go lol. by the way it was a lp bushin flip slam

[xIROCx]

Set Timed version of Obey562’s Honda Set-up: Target Combo into Run Slide, FADC into Back Dash, then quickly Forward Dash Twice, then Back Jump with Medium Kick. If Honda reverse with Ex Sumo Smash, the Mk will stuff it. If Honda reverse with an immediate Ex Headbutt, you will be able to punish him when he recovers with Medium Tatsu, Ultra 1 etc. Using the same set-up, you can also do: Target Combo into Run Slide, FADC into Back Dash, Back Dash then quickly input Medium Hozanto. This can stuff an immediate Ex Headbutt on wake. Very good set-up by Obey562!

[Shaynet]

ex.tatsu seems to be the go-to OS here. but if he backdashes on wakeup, youre fucked lol.

punish MP or HP headbutt’s with either run>slide or ex.hozanto

Actually i think it hits his back dash. it hits makotos, only thing i think will be the problem is the ochio. maybe

[Darryl215]

honda u can keep a mid-long range if you can use hk tetsu to hit honda out of his headbutts timing is not hard but the space u need honda will n.jump you if to get to close range slowly but that gives you time to counter plan.Training mode is key to the the timing takes time to use but, you will gain a great weapon.

[xIROCx]

Tricks against Ex Headbutt: 1. Target Combo into Low Hozanto, Forward Jump then apon landing immediately do crMp buffered into Ex Hozanto. If Honda techs and do an immediate wake up Ex Headbutt, then it should get stuffed. But a delayed headbutt or a Low Headbutt should win. In the corner after Low Hozanto quickly do, Forward Dash, Back Dash, crMp buffered into Ex Hozanto. If you decide to do Target Combo into Low Hozanto, Ex Tatsu, you can do the same set up just don’t buffer anything because the crMp should cause a juggle. 2. Target Combo into Run Slide, quickly Forward Dash, Back Dash, crMp buffered into Ex Hozanto. This one is kind of hard but is very rewarding if you land it. I’m sure theres many more examples of the same technology, but these are the ones I found so far.