Guy Ultra SF4 Changes

[Blooddrunk]

If Ninja Sickle is 7 frames, Guy may have some more damage and combo potential at his currently.

Currently, Ninja sickle will reach after a CH Cr.HP, this will now be standard as a 2 frame link in Ultra, That gives Guy corner punish at the maximum he can achieve with Ultra or Super. As well as his frame trap ability into the normal will be higher, and CH on Cr.HP turns into a 4 frame link. As well as from his other frametraps it will give him a soft knockdown at a reasonable distance.

But what I really wonder is can Ninja sickle be linked after st.hp. I would assume it’s character specific most likely but Guy might have the ability to do Cl.HK St.HP Ninja Sickle. That would be a devastating combo nonetheless and if it works on everyone…

[nebbiez]

They may have secretly buffed the hitstun who knows, they did buff Deejays kneeshot which may have been for the fact Hugo was added? I know at the peak of hitting like Seth at his head on block is -2.

Yeah if Hugo gets a free SPD punish off elbow drop and/or bushin flip elbow on block (or worse, on hit!), that matchup is going to be an absolute nightmare. Considering his ridiculous poke footsie game, backbreaker antiair, 2 hit armour EX clothesline, faster than normal focus attack…I already think the Hugo match is gonna be a nightmare for Guy and other non-projectile/zoning characters.

Time will tell…

True that. The unfortunate thing about Guy not being a popular character choice is that people who have the tools to break down frame data don’t have the interest/notion to check things like the best and worst frame advantage for elbow drop.

I’m most concerned about what happens on hit and counter hit with the elbow drops. Guy should never be negative on hit with either move. I did some testing. It’s possible for Ryu and Ken to punish a standing elbow drop with super after it has hit. You can’t hit elbow deep since you use it to cut into the arc of Guy’s floaty jump, meaning you’ll be dropping down from above in most rational situations, where the box of the elbow will be active well before it overlaps the hurtbox of the opponent. They stand, and you’re hitting them at the earliest possible time of your descent (maximum frame disadvantage right?) Seeing as in order to hit elbow “deep” where by the first active frame the hitbox is comfortably lower down in the hurtbox of your opponent you need to make a jump in which the likes of air mk, hk or hp would have likely hit anyway, elbow on hit should never put you negative.

In either of those situations you mentioned, it’s a really bad idea doing elbow drop on Ryu or Ken like that. Wide jump arc will be DP’d and shallow jump arc will be cr. MK low profiled. Use it as more of a baiting or jump spacing tool against shotos, rather than such a risky attack.

On an unrelated topic, you mentioned recently that you never see TK air throw being used effectively. I played a FT20 with a top Adon player the other night and must have caught him with at least 50 of them throughout that set. It deals with jaguar kicks and Adon’s annoying jump arc really effectively!

[Amelificent]

Ya’ll ready to be playing a top tier character in a couple of weeks =)

[Blooddrunk]

So am I done being the tech head until Ultra release

[Guerilla_Tech]

In either of those situations you mentioned, it’s a really bad idea doing elbow drop on Ryu or Ken like that. Wide jump arc will be DP’d and shallow jump arc will be cr. MK low profiled. Use it as more of a baiting or jump spacing tool against shotos, rather than such a risky attack.

On an unrelated topic, you mentioned recently that you never see TK air throw being used effectively. I played a FT20 with a top Adon player the other night and must have caught him with at least 50 of them throughout that set. It deals with jaguar kicks and Adon’s annoying jump arc really effectively!

I agree that elbow drop is not something you spam against Shotos… at the same time hit is a hit.

Why am I being punished because I hit you.

And also TK KIO - I’m always interested to see match tape of this move in action.

[Blooddrunk]

I’ve never been negative after a hit on elbow drop…

[jebop]

As fast as Bison?

Isn’t he the fsstest in the game along with akuma ac chun. I would have been happy with a sak/adon walk speed. But Damn bison?

I guess that means he’s much faster than in the mod.

Haha, well I saw the match. Not as fast but it’s noticeable. According to Kim 1234 Guy is broken, along with Juri, Guile and Elena lol. I don’t think he was talking about the 2F reversal on the Arcade version either. I think he mentioned something about getting the life lead and just prolonging the match until you get fed up.

Definitely picking up Guy/Makoto/Viper if Decapre is bad or I don’t like her. Those are 3 characters I’ve always liked and never played serious. This is also the first SF4 I’ve never mained Ryu/Akuma/Ken cause online makes it boring.

[Darryl215]

Guy’s far st.HK is so good bison can’t jump in on him.His walk speed is faster now with high mobility.His target combo goes into red focus, U1 and U2 work well regardless of what character you fight.1less frame on run/stop recovery mean after far St.mp sagat seth and 5frame reversals can’t punish guy free meter build(not much). His super is good,a 3 frame short, ninja sickle is speed-ed up be a threat against grabs and better uses in a corner you can lose half life with gief if this hits+super.

Guy is not broken just a more solid character.(sorry if any of my info is outdated/wrong)

[Blooddrunk]

jepop he was talking arcade version, as in the console release Elena, Juri and Guile were toned done to be fair. Guy had his EX tatsu reverted to 4 frames, being 2 it was pretty good at punishing things characters used as an approach or chip, currently he’s a stronger character with buffs to help his overall game out.

Just wait for dialupsucky to possibly make an Ultra combo video for Guy, I likely won’t cause it won’t come to PC during that time and I’ll have to mock-make a video if I get a 360 before the 3rd.

[Silhouette]

I’m most concerned about what happens on hit and counter hit with the elbow drops. Guy should never be negative on hit with either move. I did some testing. It’s possible for Ryu and Ken to punish a standing elbow drop with super after it has hit. You can’t hit elbow deep since you use it to cut into the arc of Guy’s floaty jump, meaning you’ll be dropping down from above in most rational situations, where the box of the elbow will be active well before it overlaps the hurtbox of the opponent. They stand, and you’re hitting them at the earliest possible time of your descent (maximum frame disadvantage right?) Seeing as in order to hit elbow “deep” where by the first active frame the hitbox is comfortably lower down in the hurtbox of your opponent you need to make a jump in which the likes of air mk, hk or hp would have likely hit anyway, elbow on hit should never put you negative.

I did a bit of testing myself and found something bizarre. If Guy hits Ryu with a high elbow drop and holds back walk or crouch block, Ryu’s reversal Super will hit Guy. HOWEVER, if Guy holds neutral jump after the elbow drop hits, the Super will be dodged completely. This leads me to believe that Guy’s elbow drop has a few landing frames that leave him vulnerable for somewhere between 2 and 3 frames, and this can only be avoided if Guy cancels those frames with a normal, special, or jump.

I hit Ryu with the highest possible elbow drops and from all of them, it was possible to combo cr MP (6f startup). So we can say elbow drop on hit leaves Guy on +6 assuming you cancel the landing frames.

If you hit with a slightly far off horizontally elbow drop, or if your opponent gets hit while crouching, you’re at least +7 (I’m thinking no more than +7 but I can’t be sure) because you can also link cl MK and cr HK slide. However, I would suggest linking the easier cl HP because it does good damage, hits crouching, and is special cancellable.

[Blooddrunk]

I guess that’s a bug in the engine then probably, did you also make sure to hold block long enough?

[Guerilla_Tech]

I’m most concerned about what happens on hit and counter hit with the elbow drops. Guy should never be negative on hit with either move. I did some testing. It’s possible for Ryu and Ken to punish a standing elbow drop with super after it has hit. You can’t hit elbow deep since you use it to cut into the arc of Guy’s floaty jump, meaning you’ll be dropping down from above in most rational situations, where the box of the elbow will be active well before it overlaps the hurtbox of the opponent. They stand, and you’re hitting them at the earliest possible time of your descent (maximum frame disadvantage right?) Seeing as in order to hit elbow “deep” where by the first active frame the hitbox is comfortably lower down in the hurtbox of your opponent you need to make a jump in which the likes of air mk, hk or hp would have likely hit anyway, elbow on hit should never put you negative.

I did a bit of testing myself and found something bizarre. If Guy hits Ryu with a high elbow drop and holds back walk or crouch block, Ryu’s reversal Super will hit Guy. HOWEVER, if Guy holds neutral jump after the elbow drop hits, the Super will be dodged completely. This leads me to believe that Guy’s elbow drop has a few landing frames that leave him vulnerable for somewhere between 2 and 3 frames, and this can only be avoided if Guy cancels those frames with a normal, special, or jump.

I hit Ryu with the highest possible elbow drops and from all of them, it was possible to combo cr MP (6f startup). So we can say elbow drop on hit leaves Guy on +6 assuming you cancel the landing frames.

If you hit with a slightly far off horizontally elbow drop, or if your opponent gets hit while crouching, you’re at least +7 (I’m thinking no more than +7 but I can’t be sure) because you can also link cl MK and cr HK slide. However, I would suggest linking the easier cl HP because it does good damage, hits crouching, and is special cancellable.

That’s some interesting data.

I’m with Blooddrunk on this one though - if you can jump, you can block, to be able to do one and not the other suggests a bug. I guess you were testing this on an Ultra build? Because I know for sure you can’t link mp elbow into standing mp at the highest point of contact in 2012.

[Blooddrunk]

Actually I’m fairly certain you can link into st.mp and cr.mp but that’s likely character specific due to everyone having different heights.

[Darryl215]

Guy doing run overhead for 2hits on ducking characters getting a link into ex bushin kick looked cheesy 15:53 http://youtu.be/XoU4KjQOJ6k?t=15m53s

[IROC]

So against certain characters in the corner, if Guy ends his combo with Medium Tatsu, he can avoid delayed wake up. Characters I found was Juri, Rose, Dhalsim, Vega, Bison, Rufus, Honda and Sakura. There are more characters but it works half as good. For example: against Cammy and Sagat you can punish with close stHk, stMp ~ Medium Tatsu, Empty Neutral Jump. But if you can press a button against there reversal you’ll get hit. Also if your opponent stays grounded you should be able to just jump again to get the same set-up.

[Guerilla_Tech]

So against certain characters in the corner, if Guy ends his combo with Medium Tatsu, he can avoid delayed wake up. Characters I found was Juri, Rose, Dhalsim, Vega, Bison, Rufus, Honda and Sakura. There are more characters but it works half as good. For example: against Cammy and Sagat you can punish with close stHk, stMp ~ Medium Tatsu, Empty Neutral Jump. But if you can press a button against there reversal you’ll get hit. Also if your opponent stays grounded you should be able to just jump again to get the same set-up.

“Ends his combo with a medium tatsu”

medium tatsu doesn’t give a hard knock down to have delayed wake up.

Do explain.

Guy doing run overhead for 2hits on ducking characters getting a link into ex bushin kick looked cheesy 15:53 http://youtu.be/XoU4KjQOJ6k?t=15m53s

At 46:35 you’ll see this dude’s cross up air.mk miss on a crouching chun who wasn’t pressing buttons. That’s still in the build. Fantastic.

At 52:15 you see bushin flip grab miss Poison during her fireball too.

[Blooddrunk]

During Chun she had just done Cr.HK which was in the recovery frame, and that move has a low profile status. SO she did in fact do a move.

Poison, too high. Especially when during that match you just saw him grab her out of a fireball.

And to answer question about the MK tatsu, Delayed wakeup applies to only Hard Knockdowns not soft knockdowns, since most of Guy’s combos in the corner end with Hozanto/Tatsus you won’t be worrying about DWU.

Only time someone will DWU, is after Runslide, Cr.mk, Cr.hk, Grabs, Ultras and Supers.

[nebbiez]

Delayed wakeup won’t effect Guy anyway. After forward throw and back throw (both mid screen and in the corner), run slide, ultra 1 (corner) and super (corner) you can react and adjust your normal setup accordingly because it displays the ‘technical’ 60 frames before they wakeup.

It’s only really characters who rely on commiting to their setups and can’t alter their jump arcs that will be affected.

[Guerilla_Tech]

During Chun she had just done Cr.HK which was in the recovery frame, and that move has a low profile status. SO she did in fact do a move.

Poison, too high. Especially when during that match you just saw him grab her out of a fireball.

And to answer question about the MK tatsu, Delayed wakeup applies to only Hard Knockdowns not soft knockdowns, since most of Guy’s combos in the corner end with Hozanto/Tatsus you won’t be worrying about DWU.

Only time someone will DWU, is after Runslide, Cr.mk, Cr.hk, Grabs, Ultras and Supers.

I misinterpreted what he meant by “avoid”, figuring he was talking about safe jumps designed for delayed wake up. Which again, wouldn’t work because mk tatsu is a soft KD.

I will say it will take a few matches of Ultra for me to clock delayed wake up by the ‘technical’ sign. Ukemis can be checked by the animation, as can reversals. I only glance for text for counter hit and combo numbers, so I am aware when I have 2 more frames to play with or if my combo actually linked properly (respectively). Naturally, on HKDs I’m not looking for technical because there’s nothing you can do right now. I can see myself missing the text, or recognising it too late because I haven’t trained my eyes to be perceptive to it.

[IROC]

Does Far stMp ~ Run Stop CH, stMp link in USF4? Also is close stMp ~ Run Stop safe against 3 frame reversals now?