If I do U1 and you jump after the flash you won’t get hit.
I misstyped. I was referring to U2.
You can still jump out of the flash with U2 as well, It should remain 0+1. A 0 frame ultra with a character of this mobility is asking for S tier.
Um,
A) Vega’s ult has been hittable before the superflash and it takes the ultra bar, which is what guy’s should do.
B) Drop the U2 damage obviously
C) If it doesn’t have invul, 5f is a BIG deal. It is WAY different than the giefer with his 1f throw. But if that is too good, pull it back even further a bit. The point is, instead of being a limiting ultra, which often slows game down and is what it is currently, it becomes an extra offensive option which makes his offense become dramatically scarier in a hopefully interesting way.
I don’t think there should be ANY post flash frame grab ults in the game, it should be tweaked via damage and startup time. Because that would make those characters more FUN.
It would make him broken, do you have any idea how quickly he could make a comeback if he gains momentum after taking a few hits? Be realistic. It would give Guy too many options even if they were to tone down the damage. Guy’s Ultra 2 has invincibility and has enough invincibility to avoid U1 from Gief (You grab him), THawk (You Grab him) and Hakan (Both whiff you can punish him) So his invincibility lasts for 3 frames not a lot. It would take the fun away from him quickly. It should remain 0+1, Stop asking for that 1 to become 0. We’ve already gained so much from the current USF4 build, if you asks for more buffs that are absolutely unnecessary we’re going to lose something we don’t deserve to lose.
0 frame grapple on Guy? Wouldnt he then simply EX run or run slide/EX hozan FADC forward into Ultra? Sounds very broken. If the damage would be nerfed to make up for it, thats even worse, Id rather have the pure 500 damage on a genuine punish Ultra.
If anything, its the range that deserves a buff. Ibuki has an equally damaging 0+1 grab Ultra, with range beyond Roses throw, and even has a secondary attack if it whiffs. No need for the secondary attack, but at least range can be improved so we dont occasionally miss against blocked jaguar kicks.
Sure I don’t mind “nerfing” U2 to 5 frames and without invisibility…IF THEY REMOVE THE ULTRA FLASH ANIMATION.
The official list of changes looking worrying actually. If it’s only the down + MP elbow that got the fix (yes i said fix not buff) then that would really not make sense…we need the flips to freaking hit.
Also, I dunno if the run overhead will break focus with 2 hits on characters like Ryu who push themselves back…judging by the change “Neck Flip first hit slightly expanded downward”
However, the suction effect mentioned for ex tatsu…I hope it’s similar to Akuma’s…meaning we can perhaps OS with it and even catch their backdash mid-screen? " easier to suck in opponent; start-up increased from 4F to 6F" That would make for a killer OS!
Hello people, I am sorry I didn’t post earlier, I went to the location test here I. Tokyo on all 3 days and played something around 60-70 matches total with guy.
I wanted to post earlier here about Guy’s changes but Kim1234 had my cell-phone most of the time for posting general info, and at night I’d come home and sleep. Too tired to do anything.
Anyways, I didn’t forget you guys, and here we go with my impressions about what supposedly guy would be with these changes.
First of all, as I read this thread, I saw a huge discussion about Ultra2.
Please just stop it, you want a instant grab ultra? Play Zangief.
Now to the actual changes, the hottest topic seems to be undoubtedly cr mp not being an AA anymore.
It really sucks now, I got it to work twice or thrice (when I would press it automatically out of muscle memory)…it basically hits now when the spacing is perfect, I mean when the opponents hurtbox is in the tip of your hand, so I guess it’s hitbox upwards got nerfed but not forwardly.
Also, I got it to hit on a couple cross ups, but mainly I would be hit by the air attack.
So, HK is now 5 frames active and has it’s hitbox largely increased forwardly and upwardly. We have to be honest that the move was kinda of useless before unless you were AAing an empty jump from let’s say Zangief.
It’s a slow move, 8 frames start up compared to 6 frames that we had on cr mp, which means we have to react faster against jump ins, but the 5 frames durability of the move means that we can press it early and leave it there so the opponent steps into it.
As far as functionality goes, from far and medium distances this move is now GODILKE. It took me a while to get used to the faster timing, cause before with cr mp we had to kinda like wait a little and when they started coming down we would press the button, but now it’s gotta be like real fast or else the move might not come out in time and you can get counter hit.
My only concern is, through these 60-70 matches I found out that it still trades a lot against certain jump ins like sakura’s roundhouse or ryus fierce. In those cases, you have to input real early to win clean.
But trust me I might be making it sound bad, but it works much better than the current version’s roundhouse. Maybe we just need to adept. Also, it can be used on footsies more now because of the larger forward hit box, I played a Zangief 5 times (same guy) and hit would get hit a lot by it trying to walk forward, funny thing is my foot wasn’t even actually hitting him. So I guess that’s good.
Another concrete example, now about its AA usage, I was testing stuff with Dashio’s Seth, I asked him to jump in with Seth’s dive kick and roundhouse beats him clean EVERYTIME on counter hit. Which was godlike, I hated that dive kick so so so so much.
So, my only concern is, as people have already posted here, jump ins from close distance. I know Bloodrunk said cl st roundhouse is a very good AA for opponents jumping in right above your head, but honestly I couldn’t manage to make it hit so well…I was honestly getting counter hit A LOT. I really might just be because I suck, but it did feel like it doesn’t have that much priority.
So I was thinking, capcom was obviously thinking of buffering guy when they changed his AA normal, because roundhouse does much more damage than cr mp (30 damage difference is a big deal, not to talk about stun), but, again it might be just me, I think they shoulda have done te same hitbox buff on cl st roundhouse then. Or leave cr. mp the way it was, PLUS the new far st. Roundhouse, which I think would be the best option an not overpower at all. Just strong.
Anyways, if you guys have other ideas or options for meterless one button normal AA from close distances/cross ups, please enlighten me. Is cr mk supposed to work on all cross ups? I know it gets dee jay, bison, shotos but I don’t know about the rest. I mean, what should I do against boxer, whose jump in is really deep and his arc real low and close? I could only trad with him with far st roundhouse and would get hit on counter hit every time when cl st roundhouse would come out.
About cross ups, I thought maybe sliding away with cr roundhouse is a viable option, like Cody or dhalsim do, but guy players don’t, cause we had the godlike cr mp.
So, any ideas?
On this AA topic, I also tested far st LK a lot, I actually got a Rufus player and a yun player to spend a whole round jumping in at me with dive kicks and I would try to stop them with it. DIDNT WORK AT ALL. Seems to me the hitbox was not that expanded and the move still sucks. My opinion, make it a little better or don’t even bother.
About the elbows lower hit box, good news, the buff is for both command normal and elbow after bushin flip. Bad news, the buff is still useless. LOL
I got oni and ryu to cr mk while I tried to hit them with it, with different timings.
Didn’t hit. NOT EVEN ONCE.
Ok I’m lying the only time it hit was when I timed it reaaaaaaaally late and got them on the recovery of their moves, but you know what, we can do that already. Point is, still whiffs a lot, buff is not enough.
Walk speed, got clearly faster, it’s noticeable. Could be a little faster, like omg yang is so fast now it’s stupid. We got just a little faster. But hey it’s better than having a buffed thing that’s not actually buffed like the 2 above.
So it is actually easier to play footsies now and whiff punish, but not so much, we’re far from being any Akuma.
While we are at the whiff punishing section, target combos hitbox enlargement. Everybody’s favorite, mine too. Thing is, as someone posted uryos twitter there on a previous comment, doesn’t feel THAT different.
Off course it is different and has increased, but from that ken video they showed at EVO I was expecting more.
Good news is it does hit Sakura and ibuki Cody ryu now from a decent distance, bad news is it still whiffs if you are a little far…and it doesn’t need to be that far. Another thing is people were hype about new combo possibilities with the new reach but I am not so sure about it, I tried cr hp - target combo on ryu and it does not work, which means that cammy specific combo cl st HK - cr mp - target combo is likely not working either. Again, here I would like a little bit more buff. But I guess being harder to whiff is already something. Another thing about this is that the hitbox was increased downwards, so it is easier to hit crouching opponents…so, I guess a crouching Sakura is supposed to be easier to hit than a standing one…maybe? Couldn’t verify that.
-1 recovery on run stup. YES SIR YES YES YES the only real buff (along HK if they fix the close version or if someone tells me what to do with close range jump ins).
Man guy is neat now. Run stop pressure all day. It’s clearly faster, I could frame trap boxers and chunlis crouching shorts…just yummy as hell.
That combined with the target combo range and faster walk speed is what guy needed for his ground game, but I’m only fully satisfied with this one.
Little question btw (blood maybe you can help me here), what’s the frame data for cl st fierce on CH run stop? +3 or +4? Cause that follow up with cr short just got easier to pull off. Which is a BIG thing for guy’s frame trapping game. Since cl st HP is so much faster than the crouching version, but had the disadvantage of being harder to follow up to, whereas you could easily far st strong. and run slide after cr Fierce.
So I wanna know the possibilities now, also for cl st mp on CH.
Kamaitachi or ninja sickle. I have always used that move against characters that don’t have a 3 frame spammable jab/short. And it works wonders for me in the corner. Guile, dhalsim, rose, dee jay, blanka, Zangief, hawk, Hakan etc know what I’m talking about.
But now with its frames down to 9!!! Man that was a incredible buff. Real real good IMO. I could land it on ryus (counter hit the spammed jab) clean several times during the testings, which made me really happy. I am definitely using this move more now.
Plus, if you have 3 bars, you can do it from quarter screen, ex hozanto FADC and ultra 1…real sexy really.
Not gonna comment on HP hozanto start up buff…might be better to punish fireballs now but would still be unsafe in case you miss so…I don’t know.
Ultra1, second hit clearly goes forward more now and I think we can land ultra 1 ALMOST from midscreen now after chain combo. Not so important cause the previous buff was already good, and the second move movement forward doesn’t move so much as the first, but a buff is always a buff.
Last ex bsk, doesn’t lock on like Gouken’s as someone on the comments was wishing it to, but it FINALLY hits consistently. To be honest I was tired of this buff. This crap has been on the correction list since super and they never got it right. And to be honest it still does not lock on, which means it can still miss hits depending on the distance. It got better, it did, but Meh, you know, this should have been fixed two years ago.
As for the 6 frame start up thing, down from the previous 4, as a reversal on wake up, yes it is slower and easier to bait out, and as someone pointed out on the comments, it might be that OS shoryuken punishes it, which would definitely SUCK. But my guess here is that capcom is trying to discourage wake up reversals and set ups with all the new system changes (I really like the delayed wake up, it’s not visible but it does make set ups whiff), but they’re giving Oni a FADCable DP, guile and claw incredibly fast ultras (they’re ultras are faster than guys ex bsk, isn’t that laughable?) and honda an invincible ex command grab while they are at it. It doesn’t really make sense. So I don’t know what to think about it. As an AA 2 frames shouldn’t matter, but it would be better to have a reversal a little bit faster…if you don’t want to make it 4 make it a least 5 so we can mash it out on pressure without getting baited out by fast short moves. Otherwise people gonna be in guys face all day.
Run overhead, as Blood said, the frames start up and recovery remain the same, no nerf there, only buffs.
It’s now easier to hit two hits when people try to focus it out, which is pretty cool because it counter hits allowing a follow up combo with cr lk. But tbh this should be fixed already too. Not saying I’m not happy, I’m really glad they got it this time.
As for changes that are not there but should be, why is guys ultra 1 so slow???
It’s really hard to land it on the corner after FADC (I mean even I mistake it sometimes after playing almost everyday for almost 4 years), it’s useless as a reversal, it’s hard to punish blocked reversals case it’s SO SLOW.
I mean, it already scales real bad, it doesn’t lock on so can’t be used anywhere in the screen and can’t be used as AA either, does it also have to be ONE OF THE SLOWEST START UP ULTRAS IN THE GAME?
C’mon make it a least a little useful. At least easier to punish moves and easier to combo in the corner. That’s not too much to ask is it? What I really wanted was a lock on, I wouldn’t care about damage nerf, but since they are never giving us that, at least they should make its start up faster.
Lastly, guy’s chain combo still whiffs on Abel after even a single cr short…I seriously want to kill myself.
About the new system and new changes and characters, I don’t think W ultra is going to be much useful for Guy. I mean, not criticizing the system itself, but I think there are only so many match ups where I could use ultra 2 also. I’m thinking of Honda, Adon, Guy and dictator. Also, the w ultra damage really sucks. I landed a full ultra 1 and it was laughable. So this might be more a system that we have to deal with on our match ups rather than benefiting from it.
The delayed wake up as I said is pretty cool and we’ll benefit from it HUGELY. Especially if ex bsk keeps being 6 frames. Which, again, I don’t see why they made it that way…
The new characters hurt box is broken.
Feels like they brought them from XTekken the way the were. I mean it ridiculous.
Cr hp - far st Mp doesn’t hit Elena Poison even from point 0 distance.
Cl st HK - bushin chain doesn’t hit any of them except Hugo
Target Combo doesn’t hit Elena even from very close.
Cl st HK - target combo doesn’t hit any of them except Hugo
And the indisputable champion:
Cr lk - cr lk - far st mp - ex hozanto on hit doesn’t work on Elena, ex hozanto goes under her. LOL
I’m sure they gonna fix those characters, they’re hurt box is just stupid right now, the game seems really incomplete.
All in all this is it…
Comments?
Interesting stuff Pedro. I was thinking about the St.HK and anti-airing close jump-ins. What do you think about buffing the hitbox upwards of close st.Hp? I think this is a more viable option against jump ins that the St.HK doesn’t work against.
Totally agree about the ultra still being too slow.
***Shocked ***that the elbow still whiffs on low profile moves.
I honestly prefer having only one button for AA, so HK for all would be easier.
But I know, I am a lame brain dead zombie.
cl st Hk or cl st HP, actually any of those I don’t care, just give me an option to AA from close distance/cross ups
We’ll see how life goes, slightly annoyed that bushin chain still whiffed… but the Ultra buff made it… (that was mostly to punish max distance fireballs.
Great post Pedro, really good to hear your thoughts on these changes.
As for anti-airing close jump attacks, particularly neutral jumps, 2 often unused choices I can think of are TK neutral jump HP air grab and early EX run-stop.
,
Check out the hit box on that bad boy!
And with the EX run-stop armour, you can absorb the attack (even 2 hits like Chun-Li) and punish their landing frames with cr. LK combo, throw or even Ultra 2 if you have it. For stupid attacks like Seth’s dive kick, Sakura and Bison’s jumping fierce, Blanka’s jumping roundhouse, etc. as well as the Balrog jump in that you mentioned, you can also go for early run-slide to get out safely, unless you know they have something prepared to OS punish that, in which case you can use just raw EX run with no cancel. Normal run will go into whiff state if opponent crosses you up, but EX run will keep on running to the other far side of the screen. I think even Seth can’t OS punish this with his Ultra 1, if you cancel the run at mid-screen and jump to avoid the ultra.
I would like if cr. MP still beats crossups like you said. Unless it’s a delayed crossup, cr. MK will whiff in the wrong direction which is punishable. The only other thing I sometimes do is whiff close st. MP or cr. HP because they move the hurt box forward, causing the crossup to whiff if you time it right. Apart from that, you can double tap cr. LK then cr. throw tech. The cr. LK animation makes most crossups whiff but leaves you at 0 or -1 I think, depending on timing.
EDIT:
While I think about it, I think EX air grab could be made much better by having different versions depending on which buttons use, and it should also be invincible until the grab connects, currently the invincibility is useless.
It should be LP + MP = LP hitbox, LP + HP = MP hitbox, and MP + HP = HP hitbox. That combined with the added invincibility frame would really help with safely dealing with tricky air moves.
Meh so basically everything I said seems to be true lol. Thankfully im pessimistic lol. Also just to add for balrog anti air its one of the few characters that guys duck hp is actually a fairly realistic anti air for him in earlier games so I assume it is still so in this newest one unless its changed.
…Well after reading Pedro insight, I’m comfortable resign myself to sucking balls at ultra, or at least where the new characters are concerned, what with BCC and TC whiffing mid-combo. Giving up cr.:mp: from muscle memory as an AA is bad enough. How do you say to a Guy player “Don’t have Bushin Chain or Target on Deck this match.” I have 2 hands. Should I tie one of those behind my back too?
Elbow buff still whiffing on low profiles? Pretty sneaky Capcom.
I do like the buff to Runstop pressure though. This buff in particular should give Guy exclusive players brief moments in-game where they are actually dominant rather than just pretending to be. Just those brief few seconds in a match that you can rattle your opponents ‘Guy specific’ pace with confidence will mean a lot.
…Maybe not as much as a useful Run-Overhead but meaningful.
On a separate note, quick noob question - is W Ultra the ability to have both Ultras available, or a new ultra altogether?
IS that grab box really that big? I kind of doubt it - just try grabbing Akuma’s divekick above you…he gets hit out of it even with EX grab.
re: EX kaiten grab’s problem can be easily solved by the addition of a well positioned hit-grab attribute.
Ex grab has the mp hitboz. It might be better to do jump back tk izuna rather than JP forward or nj depending on spacing
The target combo still whiffing is very disappointing. I think it being able to cr. HP, target combo, run slide on everyone isn’t too much to ask for (just for hitbox reference). Even more disappointing is the Bushin Chain still whiffing on Abel, how hard is it to fix that? Elbow Drop still getting low profiled, again, another disappointment.
The only two buffs from what Pedro has said that are either a REAL change and/or effective is really the Run Stop buff and Run Overhead. Ninja Sickle is arguably buffed but I think I would have to experience it for myself to see if it’s really that useful of a change. So far, this patch isn’t looking very good for Guy. The walk speed buff is nice but I don’t know how much faster he is nor do I think it’ll affect his playstyle very much.
Pedro, not sure if you have experienced this while playing or not, but do you know if they fixed the cl st. HK, Bushin Chain combo against Sagat and Seth after a whiffed DP? It was another one of those annoying oddities that I wished they fixed.
I believe it should be +4 currently since cr.LP follow up is possible. Will the run buff give this more frame advantage? i mean if pedro says it’s better then I assume it should be at least +5 in USF4 which would make CH cl.st.HP > run stop > far st.mp possible.
It is indeed +5, which just makes linking better.
Walkspeed = better footsies and grab game
There’s still time for it to get fixed so there’s hope on that. TC whiffing after a certain distance is fine for me, if it still whiffs after say cl hk on everyone then I’ll be upset (excluding new characters since their hurtboxes are fucked)