Here’s the thing…you don’t have to. Granted treating people with respect should be common sense and I’d hope this logic also applies to women in their conduct towards men, but ultimately as stated before the onus of acting as a enforcer is not on men’s shoulders.
Secondly the majority of men don’t normally associate with guys like this because these dudes are likely to embody other shitty qualities. Therefore in reality we are talking about a subset of scummy dudes most everyone avoids already. Lastly your suggestion doesn’t awnser the question of why women can’t just speak up for themselves or why other women can’t speak up for them…why is this responsibility on men?
Interestingly enough I don’t see a similar advocation towards men…like when you see 2 guys fighting at a bar or 1 dude agitating another dude do guys normally butt in to defend 1 of them. I mean you hear bros talking about having each other’s back but this is rarely if ever mentioned in relation to men you don’t know. If women are equal to men they should be held to the same standards and be expected to handle themselves…this concept of yours sounds extremely regressive and is supposedly what modern women are suppose to be fighting againt.
Women are either strong and independent or damsels…there is no grey area here only a hyprocritical one.
You would be surprised how many men think what I listed is appropriate behavior, and therefore think it’s okay, even IF they may not be a generally shitty person already. In regards to women speaking up for themselves or other women doing it, you don’t think that happens already? And when it does, how often do you think it gets discredited? I mean, (and I hate to bring this up again since we’ve come full circle again), the defensive reactions from even the reasonable #YesAllMen tweets is pretty evident of this. “Yes all women have been harassed by cat calling.” “Let me discredit your experience by saying not all men are like that.” The responsibility is not on men. It’s on all of us. The problem here is that a lot of people are ignorant to the matter. I mean, I’m not going discredit someone’s shitty life experience like that because I wasn’t there, I’m not them, and I can’t possibly and truly understand what they may be going through. The best I can do is try to understand and listen, regardless of whatever social issue it may be. Trying to be a better and more compassionate person is never a bad thing.
(Hunh. I hadn’t realized I actually started a page when I posted that.)
@Serpent - No, I wasn’t talking about you with regards to the “he needed to get laid” commentary. Not everything is about you; shocking I know. I know you’ve said such things before, but I wasn’t talking about the past outside of making known my amusement about your apparently still harbored feelings regarding the first Prince of Masturbation thing.
You and I basically agree that nothing really would have “fixed” this guy, much less something as constantly overrated and over-hyped as sex. (Preemptive explanation: No, I’m not saying sex is “bad” when I say “overrated” or “over-hyped”. It’s just not the panacea that too many people claim it is with regards to fixing problems.)
I can’t really accept that answer, for a variety of reasons, though I suppose I should at least thank you for trying to answer (for someone else).
If nothing else, though, then I’ll have to ask you this: You realize this kinda sends a bad message to say that you “should” stand up for women, but only women, right? Just checking here.
I mean, that’s part of the reason that I was asking Lord_Raptor to respond in the first place with what “should” be done and who it “should” be done for, since I didn’t want to assume that he was trying to say something that was literally that sexist.
With white knights like you and a feminist media pumping them full of this garbage at all times, no, nobody is ignorant of any of this.
And you still won’t ever have sex, virgin boy.
No woman wants a white knight beta male. She will marry one to provide for her, but she will resent him. That is why there are so many divorces and marital issues in this country, the male population is mostly emasculated pussies. Women complain about this all the time themselves.
Women do not want to listen to you babble about their problems. They already do that themselves. They don’t even want to listen to it. They want you to roll your eyes at it and then put them in their place. That doesn’t mean being a “jerk” it just means being assertive and taking control, something beta males like you are absolutely incapable of. Women don’t need a pussy because they have one themselves already.
Whenever any of this happens there is already a swarm of white knights ready to descend like a pack of starved dogs. Do you think women want that? It’s like trying to get rid of a rodent problem by creating a mongoose problem, the remedy is likely worse than the initial problem. You have all these white knights trying to sex these women up by being “understanding” and “nice guys.” What a load of shit, and women are not fooled, hence why they want nothing to do with you.
I have never in my life seen a woman being abused and nobody willing to help her. That type of thing just does not exist in the US. It’s laughable to claim it’s some sort of common occurrence and huge social issue.
It. Does. Not. Happen.
The women who are in those abusive relationships are in those situations because that is what they seek out and encourage. They will continue to search out those types of males. And if you get involved with those crazies, it will cause you problems. But white knights are stupid, so many a white knight catches a rape charge or a beating from trying to “help” these women when everybody else starts to steer clear. Then the media just vilifies the male that tried to help and hails these psycho women as victims and heroes. If you have an ounce of sense you won’t give it much thought.
The accounts commonly posited about these situations indicate it doesn’t happen. It quite frankly seems like most women feel reporting these events on social media is the more appropriate measure then actually addressing the incidents when they occur. If it is happening and the guys are still persisting…well we have law enforcement for that.
The hashtag has mainly comprised of prejudicial profiling and out right misandric remarks…the defensive reactions are probably the result from men being compared to poison and sharks I would imagine. Secondly and the most important point you neglect to mention is that all these experiences are all ultimately anecdotal so there isn’t any real reason to accept them as a infallible reflections of fact. Moreover women don’t get a free pass when it comes to sexism and bigotry. You don’t get to say"I’m taking a risk anytime I’m alone with a man"or post memes about how men are the most dangerous risk to a woman’s life and expect not get called out on it. There isn’t such a thing as reasonable sexism so naturally this hashtag rightfully got called out on its sexism.
The problem here is that this wasn’t presented as a legitimate discussion with varrying opinions and perspectives. From day 1 this was all about a storm of women saying “were victims and your all responsible and if you don’t accept our thoughts and feelings and object to us in anyway your just as bad as the rapist and abusers out there.” There’s a different between people airing grievances and trying to learn from these experiences and between people indiscriminately proposing that half of the population are either criminals or complicit to criminal behaviour. Whenever a "conversation"requires a member of the discussion to either remain silent or never interject with a opposinng view it just becomes a 1 person monologue. If men’s only place in this type of rtherotic is to exist essentially as a echo chamber to whatever sentiments and remarks women make…then quite simply fuck that noise.
I could go on about it but I’d rather just leave it off with these 2 vids.
If you’re trying to assert your viewpoint, name calling isn’t really going to get you anywhere. Spirit Juice is just saying that yes, some men are assholes, and that empathy isn’t a bad trait to have. Just because I can acknowledge that it’s fucked up that my girlfriend comes home feeling like shit sometimes because she gets accosted on the subway on the way to work doesn’t mean that I’m a pussy, or that other men that can see the issue are pussies.
I don’t think that’s what he was trying to say at all.
From his statements it sounded like he was attempting to justify the logic of that hashtag and brought up a point about empathy while completely ignoring the base argument we were all making. No one said people shouldn’t be empathetic instead we just said men shouldn’t be expected to "shield"women and act as their personal bodyguards.
This is of course assuming most of the stories being told about the "issues"women face aren’t made up or exaggerated for dramatic effect on social media.
(Honestly, why do people keep taking everything Serpent says deadly seriously when he isn’t all that serious most of the time?)
I’m tempted to close the thread just because people refuse to fucking learn that despite the fact that he’s been on SRK for over a decade. Seriously, @Cryoh, you are among the many people who should know this too. Stop getting baited.
Still, like I said, I’ll give this another page or so before possibly “needing” to close it for having amasssed a religious thread’s amount of stupidity.
For the record, I can see where Spirit Juice is coming from, it’s just that I don’t agree with the majority of what he’s saying since he seems to be ignoring the fact that what’s he’s arguing is largely still sexist, just towards men instead of women. Yes, people shouldn’t be friends with “shitty people”, much less people that they know abuse those they’re with; thanks for stating the obvious. Similarly, while people “should” do something to help others if being abused, I’m still waiting for a) the acknowledgement trying to help isn’t nearly as straight-forward as it’s being made to sound to be in many cases and b) useful advice what I actually can do without getting potentially beaten, stabbed, shot, sued or otherwise injured for my “help”. I mean, it’s not like those being abused have never sided with the people who were abusing them, especially in the face of some random stranger; humanity is fucked up like that after all.
The way Spirit Juice has been posting in here, apparently he would be surprised that there are just as many women who don’t bat an eye or even encourage a fellow female friend for physically hitting or berating her boyfriend even though those are both forms of abuse (that society readily accepts). It would seem the problem with a lot of modern radical feminists is that they believe just mentioning that something bad that happens to women also can happen to men is meant to invalidate the fact the bad thing happens to women at all or to women more (if that is indeed the case). It isn’t and that’s why a lot of them get accused, unfortunately rather correctly, as basically wanting superiority rather than actual equality for women.
Yes, that many women do get abused by men. No is contesting that as far as I’m aware. It’s just that, similarly, also true that many men get abused by women. Just like it’s true that many women get abused by other women and that many men get abused by other men.
Is it really so difficult to get that even if many kinds of abuse are unfortunately more likely to happen to women, they can also happen to men and that they shouldn’t be condoned regardless of which sex they happen to?
I’d say I don’t understand why that is so difficult for various groups or people to parse, but both society and humanity tend to thrive on double standards, to fail at self-examination and to be incapable of taking a moderate view or approach on anything, especially if it doesn’t benefit them.
You are only viewing it like because you do not necessarily agree with me and are seeing it as confirmation bias in regards to the information I am saying. I did not say you should stand up for women and only women. To assume so is pretty ignorant because that is not even a logical conclusion. Shitty people do shitty things to other people. Women are a marginalized group in America (meaning bad shit happens to them because they are women), but many men don’t see it this way and often think their issues are over exaggerated (some aspects are), or simply don’t exist. Before anyone says (or rather they’ve already said) “But wait, this would mean we are giving them special treatment because they are women, therefore sexist!”, that makes as much sense as saying that it’s racist to try to get rid of racism because a black person was a victim of racism. I mean, I think we could all agree if some white guy said he doesn’t see racism going on and therefor black people are full of shit, we’d think that guy isn’t very bright. However, for whatever reason, most men don’t see it this way when it comes to women, get defensive, and start asking about men’s rights issues (which do exist, but are a separate issue, similar to bringing up racism against white people when racism against black people is being discussed).
What is funny to me is that less than a year ago (you could even check old threads like these if you cared enough), I used to think similarly to A LOT of people in this thread. However, within the last year I’ve grown as a person and don’t want people to be treated like because they are men, women, white, black, gay, straight, trans, etc. Thinking how I used to was horrible, not productive, and hurt people. Hell, I even hurt a friend of mine with some of the shit I used to say. I don’t identify myself as a feminist in the slightest and think some are actually full of shit or are crazy. I don’t read feminist blogs. I don’t follow any on twitter. I don’t really care what they have to say most of the time. I just don’t want people to be judged or marginalized because they are different.
However, for those that disagree with me, you should really try what I’m about to say (none of you probably will because most of you or either trolling or don’t even care). Talk to your mom (and/or sister if you have one) about sexism. Ask her if she’s ever been harassed, be it verbally or physically, and how it felt. Ask her how she feels about her chances of getting raped and how much it might scare her. Ask her if she’s ever been in an uncomfortable situation that may result in her being sexually harassed, groped, or raped and how it felt. I mean really talk to her about it, not play softball with the questions or casually talk about it. You might be surprised if she affirms anything that’s been said in the media lately. I hope you also don’t call her an evil, man hating feminist shitbag either. She’d probably disagree with you if you did.
Anyways, The Damned, you really ought to close this thread since any attempt of intelligent conversation on the matter is either going in circles, and you’re just letting trolls run rampant, fishing for reactions. Not sure why SRK GD mods don’t do anything about blatant trolls, especially those that have been around for so long. Maybe mods should actually do their jobs.
EDIT: Ironic thing to note about this discussion: in a past similar thread, tons of people in the thread (myself included I think, don’t remember) shit on the idea of feminists saying “not all feminists are like that”, but are in full support of #NotAllMen. Pretty good.
Oh to The_Damned, I also don’t care about that Prince of Masturbation thing. I don’t even remember the prize if there was one, maybe a month of premium or something. I see that must be gone since the avatars are all so tiny now.
It is impossible to be serious on here even if I wanted to be anyway. There are too many stupid people that will derail any discussion, so it’s just better not to waste any effort on that.
Cryoh and Spirit Juice both just cry non-stop and just can’t handle any opposing viewpoints. Those types of people can never be reasoned with, rather than trying to increase their knowledge base or reason through issues, they just want to chill any discussion that does not fall into their own pre-concieved world viewpoint. No amount of reasoning or factual debate will change any of that, no number of setbacks to their positions will ever convince them otherwise. That is why it’s a colossal waste of time to bother. You will never beat a stupid, insular person in an argument, and it is impossible to discuss anything with them because they make everything an argument where they have to “win” or they feel like they’ve lost face.
Maybe 10 years ago I’d actually sit there and do a point by point rebuttal, but what’s the point? What would that achieve? It’s a waste of time and brainpower. Why do that when there are much easier and quicker ways to amuse oneself and others? It’s not like the target would understand why their positions are so weak, it’s not possible for them anyway. There just aren’t enough people on SRK anymore that it’s worth writing for the audience either.
That point is directed to everyone that keeps taking this stuff seriously and tries to argue seriously. I know none of you will stop, but honestly it is better for you to not bother, and to post things like Raz0r does.
Going to ignore the fact that the thread is all over the place and some people can’t discuss without acting like kindergarteners, I’m going to explain the unjustifed leaps in logic with that common mindset I quoted-
First of all people can talk about their own problems without dismissing others’ problems nor start some victimhood olympics contest.
Secondly, people can fully support solving problems that affect women while also believing that modern feminism does it wrong and harms everyone in the process. Thus, objecting feminism does not mean objecting to solving problems.
The disagreement is usually about the definitions of said problems, because:
Some complain about the most trivial things.
Some invent problems using faulty statistics or just plain misinformation.
Some present real problems but in a half-truth way that hides the real cause, in order to maintain a gender based narrative even when the problem isn’t gender based.
Actually it’s a perfectly logical conclusion given the context of the conversation and that there has been no specific reference that this applies equally to men and women. It isn’t logical to infer "men and women"when only women are repeatedly mentioned in this discussion. If you don’t like the way people are viewing your argument I would recommend to be more inclusive in your phrasing.
Here’s the problem…women are not a marginalized group and this is a bad argument that people like you need to drop. For every problem a woman has regardless of its relevancy there is literally dozens upon dozens of initiatives,committees and advocacy efforts addressing each tiny detail. To say women are marginalized in spite of the mountains of evidence that inform the very opposite is beyond daft and dishonest. Even the recent epidemic of women" fearing to walk home alone"is statistically inaccurate because men are the majority of street violent victims…yet in spite of this these conversations always reverberate back to the ways women are harmed and a big reason why is due to the false predisposition that women are by default marginalized and always have it worse. In short this thinking needs to stop because lots of people tend to make women the victims of things they aren’t even the biggest victims of such as this recent shooting.
The validity of a argument rest in its evidence so perhaps the reason men don’t see it this way when it comes to women is maybe just maybe because what women claim doesn’t accurately reflect the facts of the situation. When statistical evidence from the department of justice irrefutably states that men are the primary victims of nearly all forms of violence and that men are more likely to be mugged and brutalized on the streets this will obviously hold more weight then a bunch of women on social media (or wherever) claiming their the "true"victims all because they feel more fear throughout the day. The issue here is that lots of women are attempting to monopolize the entirely of victimhood throughout the spectrum off all crimes in the world…it’s not only deceptive but it’s also extremely dishonest to real victims. Here’s a perfect recent example of this:
The worst part is that this isn’t even a isolated sense of entitlement…lots of the women "victimizing"themselves get encouraged in this mindset because people like you justify and defend it. Therefore before you start talking about issues that men are willing to ignore ask yourself if the issue is even real to begin with.
As I stated before who here has been marginalizing victims?
The only group of people anyone here has mocked has been the twitter feminist/women who have attempted to turn the Elliot tragedy into a vehicle for their agenda. The women who compare themselves to black slaves and the women who think every man is a potential rapier. At no point has anyone here ever downplayed legitimate victims…we just mock and rightfully condemn the fake ones.
To this I simply say to ask your father/brother/uncles/nephews how many times they have encountered a violent situation. How many times they have been scared, how many times they felt powerless…I think you’ll be amazed at the response assuming that they would even be willing to open up in the first place. I remember a study a long time ago about male victims of sexual abuse and I remember the study reporting that 40% of the abusers were women. The researchers had a hard time cracking this number because a large sum of the men they interviewed had a very difficult time seeing themselves as victims. That is to say that even though they were raped and abused as children by these women, they couldn’t recognize their own victimization. This to me was really depressing but not surprising and you know why…when you grow with the whole world telling you your pain is"derailing"and that your marginalizing everyone else by asking for acknowledgment and help it’s no wonder you couldn’t possibly imagine yourself ever being a victim.
Now I hate to be the one making appeals from emotion but I think what’s important to recognize is that what one feels is not always what actually is. Knowing this if I ever had this conversation with my mother or any women I know, the thing I’d tell her is that beyond anything else all these fears she is having are quite simply put all psychological and that she has nothing worry about. The most common form of rape is by someone you know. Getting raped by the scary stranger on a bad street is actually quite rare. Street violence itself is targeted largely at men as I covered above, therefore all the fears and worries she would have are in fact not even things she has to ever statistically worry about…at least no more then any other crime for the most part.
When you can curb fears with facts and logically breakdown all these deceptive myths, you actually end up empowering women because telling them the truth as opposed to fear-mongering narratives lets them know they aren’t perpetuating victims who are powerless to help themselves. Thousands of women in that hashtag remarked that they were afraid even leaving the house or exchanging a friendly glance with men walking down the street…is this really the state we want women in?
You know I could almost cut you a break and just say that your willingness to be a good guy has left you vulnerable to ignorance but I don’t think that’s a valid excuse anymore…especially when considering the circumstances of this thread and the context leading up to this conversation. The points you brought up could all literally be debunked by a simple google search and the fact that you tried to defend a movement where shit like this <img src=“https://us.v-cdn.net/5020525/uploads/FileUpload/23/5f3c269627e7568f49cabcc1dff393.jpg” /> is used a legitimate argument speaks more about your values then it does to anyone here trying to call out the BS anyone with a basic sense of smell can sniff out. If you consider it trollish to remind you that women are not the perpetuate and exclusive victims of all crimes, that their words are not all infallible statements of facts, that perhaps just maybe their so called awareness effort is in truth a clumsily veiled excuse to attack men and that a discussion shouldn’t require 1 side to always say "I agree"with no argument then fine go ahead…you did more to damn your own argument then anyone here could.
I’m going to very politely ignore this. I feel it’s for the best.
Again people: Serpent is allegedly a lawyer. Let this sink in.
Anywho, if anybody is actually stupid enough to take him seriously, go look up the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter, or do simple-ass Google searches, for easy-to-find and shocking examples of women being abused with nobody willing to help them.
EDIT - And while you’re looking for tiny holes in the above to nitpick to death, as though that will do fuck all, read this: http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/
“I’ve never seen a woman being abused and nobody willing to help her in the US.”
“Oh yeah? Well here is proof that it DOES happen!”
GIRL KILLED INSIDE PRIVATE DORM ROOM
GIRL KILLED AT OWN HOUSE VIA FIREARM
GIRL KILLED AT HER DORM ROOM VIA FIREARM
GIRL CLUBBED OVER HEAD IN DORM ROOM
PAKISTANI WOMAN STONED
Damn, if only I had been there to tell him that shooting somebody was bad. Mothers really need to sit their kids down and tell them raping and shooting women is bad, don’t you think?
