This thread is meant to people who have just started using Guy, or people who have being playing him but still got some bad habits on execution.
Some could say that this thread should be at Newbie Saikyo Dojo, but it is kinda complicated to find especific things there, and this is especifically about Guy.
I see that a lot of American players (through videos in youtube) in begginer or intermediate level have the habit of always finish the target combo (MP > HP) with lp hozanto (qcb + LP), on hit or when the opponent is blocking. This is a really bad habit and I think it is the first wall you have to break in order to grow with Guy. Believe me, your whole game changes when you stop with that.
Of course, MP > HP > LP Hozanto is not a bad move on hit at all. It pushes your opponent back to the corner (which is where Guy shines the most), and specially when you are in the corner (or near it) you can follow up with HK BSK (qcb + HK) or FADC Ultra 1. Understand that what I am saying that is a bad habit here is doing MP >HP> LP Hozanto ALWAYS. Because Guy is more than that, and has more offensive options which normally people do not realize, or even realizing cannot pull off (for lacking hand skills to do so).
So I would like to state here how I did to break this wall and improve my gameplay, while giving some advices on how to practice Guy`s pressure game and mechanics (hit confirm, button input, etc.) the way it helped me.
First of all my friends, after a target combo landed, unless you are in the corner or wanting to push your opponent there, you should perform a shadow kick (qcf + any kick > mk). Altough I think most of you know the reasons for that, I´ll state them anyway:
1- The damage is higher
2- You will be positioned for a perfect neutral safe jump and will be able to imply further pressure, since lp hozanto pushes the opponent away and the shadow kick does not.
This safe jump is one of Guy´s main weapons of pressure, and you can keep attacking, attempt for a throw, frame trap him/her (pretend to throw and hit him while he is in his move animation first frames with cr HP, for instance) etc.
For the safe jump, you can use MK (buffered with a different option select depending on the character you are facing), or a LP, LK, or even a HK. The best one is the MK, but it is kinda hard to get the timing. The safest and easiest to land is LP, but the option select input after it is hard to get (strict timing). I like to mix LP, MK and LK, so the adversary never knows what to expect. I know the outcome is going to be the same (they are going to have to defend on waking up, or attempt for a reversal, which is what we want, since we can simply guard and punish them), but the simple fact of using different normals changes the animation and that makes your opponent think you are doing something different, which prevents him from knowing you, from reading you.
One more thing about this neutral safe jump after a landed shadow kick. You can PRETEND to attack high, and hit low with 2 cr LK, baiting them into a Gokusa combo (the one with LP, MP, HP, HK I don´t know the name in English).
Remember also that you can´t safe jump 3 frame reversals characters (ryu, ken, akuma, etc). Which means you are going to get dragon punched in the face. One option to deal with that, is to delay the neutral jump and get them with EX kaiten izuna (qcf + PP in the air), so you induce them to stop mashing DP on wake up. Another one would be empty jump them, so you would have time to land and block the reversal (you will get hit if you press a button, in other words make a move, in the air).
Now,
If your target combo is defended by the adversary, then you have much better options than a low hozanto. It is not that it is unsafe, much on the contrary, it is a good move when your adversary is defending. But Guy´s game is all about pressuring your opponent into mistakes, and if you do it all the time he WILL know that the hozanto is coming after those two punches, it gets easy to defend your attacks right?
I used to do that too a lot, when I started playing (even before the arcades, on ps network). I know, again, that most of you know this too, but your hands just go for it automatically, believe me I´ve been there. But you HAVE to go to pratice mode and train your hands to exhaustion. In a fight, one more combo you land can bring you the victory, and one single combo mistaken can get you defeated. So it is of EXTREME importance (especially with Guy, such a technical character) to be able to perform different moves ON REACTION after Guy’s target combo.
But before discussing the execution part, I`d like to answer one obvious question here.
What should you be doing after the MP > HP target combo when the opponent is blocking?
The three main options are run stop and its variations, the izuna drop, and the hozanto you have been doing.
I am going through these 3 separatedly.
- Run stop and its variations
First of all, you can simply run and stop, trying to bait some reversal. That is the first pattern (used to exhaustion by my friend Kiryu Tsukimiya). What does he do? he runs +stop, waits (one second, if much) to se if a reversal is coming out, and if not he keeps his pressure eitheir with low kicks or low punches, or with far MP + low hozanto (which btw is a great way to use LP Hozanto, the best no doubt), baiting a counter attack. Go to his videos and confirm it by yourself, that is great part of his game. Run + stop + wait is in fact the best (or should I say safest) Guy pressure atempt move, but it has one big flaw. Your opponent can learn how to deal with it faster than you would like. He just needs to wait a little longer to kick the shit out of you with that shoryuken. In other cases, (specially when it comes to characters that have fast jabs or low kicks, like boxer or chun li), you can get kicked or punched and then be forced into a block string if they are mashing cr LK or cr LP.
Now this is where the Run +stop variations get to the scene. you HAVE to mix shit up with guy, remember, the less the oppenent can read you the best it is when you main Guy. after running and stopping, you can:
1- kara throw (plink MP with LP+LK)
2- run > over head HK (don´t really remember the name in English)
3- Shadow kick into FADC + focus attack for a counter hit, or FADC> fw dash > ultra 2
4- Ultra 2
5- cr LK or cr LP
6- cr HP (frame trap)
7- close standing MK (frame trap)
8- close standing HP (frame trap)
etc…
But I am sure you know well all of these. Just be sure to mix all of that depending on what your opponent does (guys that like to crouch do the HK attack to force them to stand, throw more guys that mash cr LP and etc.).
Remember that the run > stop pressure I am talking about here is after a target combo (safe on block), not the one after a MP (not safe on block). By safe here, I mean that you will have time to defend the reversal, if your opponent is mashing one, after the animation of running and stopping. The only safe run > stop is after the target combo.
-
izuna drop
Normally, I go for the over head HK atack after running with people that have the habit to defend crouching. Then, if they are smart they will stand on the next time, waiting for the Flying HK. That´s when you use the LP bunshin flip. Well, not much to say here, I bet you know it all. If they keep crouching, you can hit them with the elbow drop for further pressure and etc.
Just two tips, using LP bunshin flip after two blocked cr jabs works better than after the target combo sometimes, specially against more experienced players, or players that know Guy mix up game. That is maybe beacause they know something is coming out of the target combo, and they don´t expect the bunshin flip after cr jabs. Specially because most Guy users have the bad habitt of always doing the target combo after cr jabs or cr LKs. What I want to say here is that you have to mix stuff when you are playing Guy in order to obtain success. If you always do the same things, over and over, Guy is a really easy character to read and punish, so try to make new stuff here and there to confuse you opponent during the match.
Anyways, back to the subject, another tip is that the MP bunshin flip, altough does not keep the pressure going on after a target combo (unless you try a very unsafe elbow drop after it, which can get you a cunter hit if you are lucky, or a full ultra right in the face if you are unlucky like me), it punishes reversals.
Most reversal DP whiffs, and you grab them from behind.
Kiryu Tsukimiya likes to do this against shotos a lot. -
LP hozanto and MP hozanto
This is a great move when you have conditioned your opponent to think you are going to run +stop throw them, or when you are dealing with someone who spams low normals, for instance a boxer with his cr jabs. The MP hozanto is a bit slower to hit, so it will get them in the animation of their cr jabs. I use and abuse of this in the corner. It has made wonders for me. And this one I have to give the credits for Mago, as he was the one who invented it with me, and I have never seen other Guy players doing it.
LP hozanto is only for chip damage or for baiting an counter attack, altough I don`t think that is going to happen very often (not after a target combo, it is more likely to happen after a far MP). Some players here in Japan like to FADC block lp hozanto into U2, but then again, if your opponent did not mash normals he can jump out of it.
In other words, FADC after lp hozanto into U2 is gambling.
In resume, what I want to say with these examples is that most Guy players I see have the habit of doing the same things over and over, getting predictable. And that is the last thing you want to get when plying Guy, because he is not a strong character in terms of spacing, frame advantage, pokes, reversals…etc.
Besides the target combo > lp hozanto habit, another one I see a lot is the cr lp > cr lp > (or cr lk> cr lk) target combo > something when the opponent is blocking. This is not good also. It looks like people need to land two shorts before going for the target combo. This, in my opinion, is also fruit of lack of confidence in execution (in other terms, in hit confirming). Remember I am not saying that this is not a good combination, I am saying that it is VERY PUNISHABLE if the opponent knows you are going to perform it. On hit, the target combo (if performed at the correct timing, which btw I advise to plink the MP) will combo with the two cr lp (or cr lk), so no problem.
The problem here is on block. The target combo is a 2 frame link after cr lk or cr lp, but Guy can get hit by invencible reversals (like Honda’s EX headbutt, most characters Ultra combos and command grabs) during the space between the two cr lk (or cr jabs) and the target combo (you will see his MP animation but he will whiff and get hit), and believe me, YOU WILL GET HIT. That is exactly why you should try different approaches as well, like only one cr lp (or cr lk) > target combo (so the opponent would be waiting for another cr short move, and would not reversal you), go straight for the target combo from the far MP, getting the spacing right (which Kiryu is a master at doing), or even hit the two, or three cr shorts, or cr jabs and guard or backdash baiting something.
When playing with Guy, keep it unpredictable. Believe me, you can get better results baiting things out of your opponent, than just going for crazy pressure with him (since he has unsafe spaces between his moves, like the example above).
A advanced player would make it seen as if he is pressing his opponent like crazy, but pay attention, he is doing it in a safe way. baiting reversals and watching his opponents reactions carefully. That combined with better execution (basically being able to land a combo properly when you need to), my friend, is what will make you a real Bushin Ryu Master.
Talking now about practicing.
Parting from my visual experience from arcades, my time in the lab, and my classes with the pro, I can suggest you the following training patterns, to fix the mechannical LP hozanto habit, and improve your hit confirm skills:
1 - On training mode, set the dummy defense to random, and try to (in the corner) see if the target combo hits or gets blocked. If it hits you use LP Hozanto, if it blocks you use MP hozanto (the QCF stick move you do while you input the target combo, and just change which button you press depending on the outcome). This is actually a hit confirm training, but it will help you with the habit as well. Its two birds with one rock.
2 - Same settings, not necessarely in the corner. on hit run + shadow kick. On block run + stop kara throw
this training is the best. It is the vital chord on Guy´s pressure game. You will improve here on hit confirming, timing for the run +stop, Kara throw command input (I did not mention before but plinking is essential with guy, anything further on it mind the plinking threads).
3 - This is harder in terms of execution. Get a friend to move the dummy and ask him to defend crouching or standing ramdomly. after the target combo, If he stands you do LP bunshin flip, if he crouches you do the flying HK attack after running (this practice has a flaw since your friend can stand when you are running, it is a good point though, because you will be aware of Guy´s weak points).
4 - This is another hard one. On defense, lp bunshin flip. On hit shadow kick.
This is more like the real battle, you just changed the run stop to the bunshin flip. This one you help you to know what you are going to do with your hands after the target combo.
Understand here that I am not saying that you should do those things in a real battle. This is just for enhancing your hand skills on the mechanics of the game. Just so you get used to the motions and then, when you need to do something different in a battle, you have the hand control for making it happen.
With this practices you will be able to adjust your moves depending on the situation, almost without thinking.
Practice a lot, I used to practice at training mode something around 30 min a day. Nowadays I do 15 min sessions of training before going to real battles.
Of course, you can develop your own hit confirm training sets, parting from here!
Any questions, criticism, or anything are more than welcome!
Lets help each other, and help Guy on his way up in the tiers list!
Keep it strong!
OTinhoso
Other training patterns (for increasing hand-skill on input timing, hit confirm, plinking, command input, punishing odd moves) by Brunaleski:
1: Set dummy to random block, C.lk > CS. MP. On hit: Shadow kick > Safe jump OS EX BSK. On block: run > Stop.
The c.lk to S.MP timing is extremely important, you need to be able to hit confirm in your head that your c. lk hit and not worry “did i get the link?” when cancelling into the super unsafe shadow kick. This can be made “easier” by doing c.lk > TC run slide to give additional time to confirm, however it can handicap you when playing against characters the tc whiffs on still(vega, sakura, etc). The timing on the NJ. mk is also something you wanna get down and not have the EX BSK come out so practicing that setup with it is just bonus. If i have a player 2 to train with if he blocks i have him try to punish my run stop to make sure that’s on point.
2: Obvious practice this combo 1: J. RH > C. FP > S. MP > Ex hozanto > fadc U1, you never wanna drop this combo, EVER. sadly the part i drop the most is ultra 1 and get ex run, god i suck. =(
Practice this combo 2: focus attack > C.RH > S.FP > S. MP > Run slide It’s a ton of stun, learn it, it’s especially useful in the rog matchup when you can prediction his c. RHs from a distance.
Not so obvious combo to practice: CH C. RH > C. lk > S. MP > Run slide. I am pretty much programmed after a well distanced slide to try for this combo, at worse you get a frame trap at best you actually land the combo.
Overhead comboing: Set dummy to downback all day: Run > Overhead kick > C.lk > S.mp > shadow kick I don’t know the character specific list but i know on counter hit there’s no character that when crouching this doesn’t work on.
The i wanna show off for no reason combo: CH C. FP > Run stop > S. jab > S. MP > S. FP > C. LK > S > MP > EX hozanto > FADC Ultra 1. This is pointless, character specific, and not practically, but it certainly is one of the harder things in the game to do.
3: Thanks to a friend making me hate the honda matchup again I set honda to c. jab > FP HHS (blocked) > Sumo Splash or Headbutt. I change those last 2 around but the point of this practice is for me to be able to stuff everything with c.mp timing. being able to do this REALLY HELPS THIS MATCHUP, i can only do it half the time in a match but even then it gives honda players pause. obviously if i have a player 2 i have him do this manually and mix it up himself, on a side note make sure you learn the timing of the different distance sumo splashes(this is probably off topic and should be put in the honda m/u thread, but i do this often enough and i’m listing what i do to practice just to feel like i contributed somehow, when i really don’t ever =P)
4: Difficult or oddly timed punishes for example. 1 Blocked jab rekka(close range), oddly spaced soul spiral, Rog dash punches(i can’t throw these for the life of me, so i make sure i can punish them), messiah kick follow ups(they’re not actually hard. . . just odd). sumo splashes(with ultra 2 if at all possible!). just think about a move people usually use for chip from certain spacings, go look up the frame data if it’s 3 frames or more and they end in range, c.lk > s. mp > shadow kick that crap, put the fear of god in them and take away their options. One thing i never see but always do is blocked dee jay kicks, they get s.mp’d > shadow kicked all day by me(at least offline they do, i always try online for better or worse because i don’t wanna get the bad habit of letting them get away with it).
- and lastly, auto correct practice. i can only do this with another player reliably, so ummm, yeah. . . practice those BSKs and auto correct them, and in some cases do TK > up back > izunas if your reactions are on point enough and you know the jump arc will go behind you. that’s actually in most cases entirely too hard to do, I’ve only ever done it once in a match. =(
