Guile in Super Street Fighter IV (arcade version)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
561

I pick U1 almost all the time now because of the comeback factor. If I’m losing then land a focus crumple, U1’s damage will put me back in the game where as U2 barely does anything. U1 also has the benefit of helping you get out of the corner if you’re knocked down and they try to cross you up on wakeup. In the corner, Anti-crossup Super -> turn-around U1 can be really useful as well if they’re crossup happy.

“The changes were nerfs”… yea his damage was lowered slightly, SB meter gain is lower and SH comes out a touch slower, but none of these things really change guile to the point where “His traditional zoning game doesn’t really work in AE”. His normals have the same hitbox properties (plus an improved UDK hitbox), Sonic Boom has the same speed and recovery, and LK Flash Kick invincibility is improved over Vanilla… so if these are the core properties of his zoning ability then really nothing has changed.

With the exception of Sonic Boom meter gain, Guile is arguably improved overall compared to Vanilla. The LK Flash Kick invincibility hits shotos cleanly out of c.mk xx fireball, Guile High Kick juggle is great for simple high damage punishes, Forward Sobat kick goes over low tiger shots nicely, etc. Remember strength is relative… Ryu can’t punch you out of a flash kick so easily now and Sagat doesn’t have a billion damage ultra juggle that’ll kill you from 50%…

Sonic Hurricane can still punish fireballs reasonably well, you just need to close enough so that it doesn’t have to travel forward before making contact. Clearly they meant for SH to be a long-range/fireball punisher while Flash Explosion was meant as a close-range punisher. The problem was that SH was so fast that it was better at close range punishing than Flash Explosion so they’re trying to make their individual roles more defined. While I don’t think the speed change is too brutal since we were probably a little spoiled in Super, I don’t agree with them changing the speed AND the damage. One or the other, but not both. SH damage is truly sad now especially after FADC and the chip damage is halved (i think?). Maybe they thought meaty Sonic Hurricane chip to finish matches was lame :frowning:

About Yun though, yea I hate him but I think I prefer fighting him over Akuma. It takes time to learn the matchup after all. At first I thought his dive kicks were super bull-crap but then I realized how fat his hittable box is during dive-kick and how good crouching medium punch is at anti-airing it then suddenly he wasn’t so ridiculous. Vanilla Sagat matchup feels easier because we are familiar with it after all this time and we’re more conscious of Sagat’s options at any given time.

Anyway, I went to a small local tournament yesterday full of skilled players and there were 2 Guiles eating people for breakfast lunch and dinner. I think he’s still usable :stuck_out_tongue:

562

You know what I think would be cool for Guile? A move where you hold down a button and then release it. Like rog’s turn around punch, cody’s zonk knuckle or elf’s qusadilla bomb. Maybe make it a different variation on Guile’s flash kick, one with different trajectories. I’d love a flash kick that just rises UP with a hit box that mostly just covers the top of him. You can’t hit the person when they’re grounded but it works as a much stronger anti-air move. Hold down two buttons for EX that rises faster and recovers faster. Lower body invincible for lk and ex but all are considered airborne when they start.

563

Akuma and Seth’s Dragon Punches lost invincibility so Guile can now FINALLY EX Somersault Kick them if they go for dumb 50 50’s that made them such a bad match for Guile especially Seth.

I have gotten the privilege of playing Arturo’s Dhalsim in AE. The match is definitely different as compared to Super in a better sense. Getting in is not hard like Super because Dhalsim deals less damage so you’re opted to take more risks to get in. Focusing is important in that match also. From mid range you can tap Level 1 focus in hopes that Dhalsim will press any limb and get a lucky crumple that deals into good damage into knockdown if you’re smart.

To be honest, I’ve always thought that the problem with the Dhalsim match is that when you finally find the edge to out shoot him with sonic booms and you get him to jump and opt to pursue him because you think that he is vulnerable in the air he has multiple options of attacking and defending at awkward ranges. It’s the part of the match that supposed to get you in but he has several methods of keeping you out at the same time e.g. multiple drill trajectories, safe mummy drill, j. forward (long downward kick), j.strong if you try to jump, Sniper or he can teleport anywhere and proceed to do any of those things anyway. This is where it becomes the reaction game that could make or break your ability to play close range on Dhalsim where Guile excels at in this match in AE. Dhalsim can choose what he wants to do, but Guile has answers for all of those options at the same time.

For some reason it feels much easier to hit or trade Dhalsim out of his limbs. I think Capcom fiddled with the hittable boxes on most if not all of him limbs. Last night we found some stuff out with M.Bison vs Dhalsim and seriously Dhalsim CANNOT spam limbs on Bison because Bison’s cr.roundhouse trades with all of his limbs and he scores an easy knockdown on Dhalsim and we all know the last thing that Sim players want is to get knocked down. So I tried the same thing with Guile and voila…it’s just as good with Guile as it is with Bison minus the Bison slide.

Cr.strong, cr. forward and even better cr. roundhouse beats clean or trades easier with Dhalsim’s st.firece and because that move got nerfed in damage in particular, it does the same damage for the trade off. So it’s not in Dhalsim’s best interest to SPAM limbs, now they have to actually play smart against Guile to keep him out. I’m sure it wouldn’t be anything too hard for Dhalsim players to adapt to though :wgrin:

In the Dhalsim match up, focus dashing plays a big role and you need to know when exactly is the right time to use it. The best time to use it is to close the distance go back to defending. Never try to attack Dhalsim right after focus dashing his limbs because he can still use his b.short like always and you will lose the life that you need to regain for the remainder of the match. Just go back to defending and you will find that the Dhalsim player will 1) spam on b.short which shows that they are nervous 2) do b.short and cancel to a backwards teleport which is in you favor because he backs himself into the corner easier 3) Hold his ground and be patient which also works out better for us because were in range to deal some serious damage.

If choice 1) happens, let him spam on b.short while you hold down back. If you gutsy and have good reactions, the most Dhalsim can do is press 2 buttons before he respect the fact that you have a Flashkick and that you’re not afraid to use it, 2 stocks or not. If you manage to hit him with a Flashkick like this, I almost guarantee the Dhalsim player will NEVER use this method on you again and will go to option 2) or 3). If 2) happens it’s the best option for us. He backs himself in the corner yes, but in order to take advantage of this option, it’s all up to you to react to the teleport with a forward dash and keep the distance closed as much as possible. From that range you can form a game plan that benefits Guile and whatever you choose to do. As for 3) You find Dhalsim cr. teching as they will try to hold ground while at the same time trying to prevent themselves from getting thrown. Rolling Sobat and Reverse Spin Kick works wonders in this situation.

Rolling Sobat closes the distance even more and avoids lows so you score small damage while keeping the distance close. It’s the best less risky option. The more risky option in the Reverse Spin Kick or UDK. You risk getting thrown if Dhalsim decides to stand tech and that’s not good. If you reading your opponent properly and knows their habits, that’s when you’ll know when to use this move because it hits Sim out of his back dash and beats his cr.tech.

Always keep in mind that being as close as possible to Sim is the goal, so try to use different strategies to close the distance more and more. If your finding your self constantly blocking st.fierce over and over and getting pushed back remember that his limbs can be hit out of easier now. In AE it feels like played properly Guile can actually own Dhalsim. If you’re familiar with the match it definitely won’t feel like 7-3 anymore more like 5.5 to 4.5 Sim. I’ll do an advanced tactics guide for Guile very soon. It’s time that we as Guile players use every tool that we have to win.

564

oni and evil ryu arent bad

oni - has alot of mixup / vortex possibilities with cross up, slash cross up lands into easy ultra setup…he feels like he can keep up with guile in projectile wars …air dash looks very convincing for AA bait, so beware of whiffing, he can also do a mid air RD and ultra FB…oni feels almost like guile because of his keepaway and godly AA stand fierce…also has a move that has the purpose of chun li’s hazashou…decent stamina

evil ryu has no akuma vortex, but shoots FB’s really fast and recovers quicker…has a shitty low forward and roundhouse…has a cool axe kick move that you can use to pressure with and what looks like a hop kick (looks more like Dan’s gale kick from A3)…ambiguous knockdown options with that move…shitty stamina

should be some interesting matches for Guile

565

wow, the dhalsim post gave some hope in the match-up

566

I am afraid that Air raging demon would greatly discourage air throwing in Oni match up. On top of that he has air dash (WTF!??!?!?) that can cause confusion and hesitation on anti airing, giving him the mental edge when going air borne vs Guile.

He also has better stamina than Akuma, some of his vortex potential and strong projectile game (almost like Gouken) with a Shoryuken. Some videos confirms his ability to combo into his Ultra fireball, and chip damage from air ultra fireball is decent and he still maintain distance, so probably best punish would be EX sonic boom (unless he has lots of delay, Bazooka knee to Ultra 2).

Also his other Ultra cinematic scene is godly.

WTF?

567

I think having a charged up projectile for multiple hits would be too buff on guile. Buffing his flash kick so it hits above his head would make me happy. Or maybe, dare I say, a THIRD special?

568

Wouldn’t mind an “Angry Scar” type buff that costs EX meter. Well I think that’s the least Two-Move-Tradition breaking way to give him a new move. Guile grabs his dog tags and flashes for a moment. Afterwards, his next flash kick of any strength is performed Charlie-style like the second hit of Flash Explosion. It does the same damage of a regular FK depending on what strength you used, knocks your opponent far away, and the hitbox is full coverage so that it hits above and behind like the first kick of his Super so it works as an anti-cross-up attack. Could be like press 3-punches while you have a down charge to activate. It’s similar enough so that Guile basically still has 2 moves but it gives you some buffed utility to cover an obvious weakness. It’ll be called… … FLASH MEMORY. O SHI-

Not that it would ever happen but dreaming is fun…

569

I would like it if spinning knuckle did it’s 120 by itself again in AE. I understand why it’s got a damage nerf, because it’s pretty braindead to do with SB on the screen (hit or blocked), and it did great damage with a j.HP/HK>Guile High Kick>SBK=300 (same theory as to why Flashkick got nerfed as well, but it did 330 to 350)…but I feel like it should have stayed at 120 for pokes and punishes…and it’s damage gets reduced (I don’t know exactly what total knuckle damage does in AE) when a SB is on the screen or used with his GHK combo follow up.

Not really complaining about it. Just sayin’.

570

I like that Angry Scar idea. I think it would look better if he whipped out his comb though. Also if his flash kick was like in mvc2 so there’s a blue sonic boom like thingy that comes out of his foot.

571

Thank you SO much for that Dhalsim guide Dieminion. I haven’t fought any dhalsim’s in roughly a month of AE, so I can’t wait to try this noise out. I’ll also add it into the matchup thread promptly.

Still… with this new info it just seems like Dhalsim would be just plain… bad now. With guile’s poor up close game, it seems weird that this match would be in his favor, even with counter-poking limbs… since everyone can do that.

Crap, I need to stop thinking theory fighter and find a sim player to try this on.

572

I think what Dieminion discovered about counterpoking Sim’s limbs really helps when Sim gets U2 cos at least Guile doesn’t have to just sit there and take his FB dmg and at the same time, cannot do anything against his hp which he uses to push Guile in the corner fast.

The method I used to use on hp-happy Sims was to guess his hp and empty jump forward into sweep just as he does hp. But this doesn’t work against good Sims more than once.

573

My first post for a while. I never use U1 due to how unreliable it is. U2 is an auto selection and there are far more setups with this ultra. Still very good against Akuma IMO as if he does an EX or normal air fireball while jumping forward, then he is in trouble. Even in arcade edition I managed to land these a number of times, and it takes away one of his offensive setups.

Still good against fireballers too, but I found out against sagat that if you are late on using U2 on reaction to a tiger shot he will have time to block. Seriously Why the F$%^ did capcom increase the start up of this??

I still think that some of Guiles hard matches from SSF4 are even harder. Abel got nerfed considerably which explains why people in my area have switched characters.

reduced damage output really hurts guile in AE and the air throw from 3f to 4f definitely is big change, as sometimes my timing is off

574

I don’t quite think the few damage nerfs really hurt him. Aside from the damage nerfs to FlashKick, U2, Spinning Back Knuckle…that’s about it. Most of his BnBs, like cr.MK>f.MP still do 150 for example.

j.HP/HK>Guile high kick>heavy FK does 250ish. Not 300-330, anymore but it’s still pretty good. And considering most of the cast got damage nerfs (just about everyone from vanilla, with Abel, Honda, and Sim getting nerfed from Super)…Guile is even, in terms of damage, to the rest of the cast. Maybe slightly more, but even.

And U2…I never really used it. I was so ajusted to U1 from Vanilla, well…I didn’t give it up. Hell, I had a weird preminition Capcom would nerf U2 to “even out” his U1, because let’s face it…U1 was not really worth it in Super. Now with the slight U2 nerfs, Guile players gotta a 50/50 of which Ultra will work. More like personal preference. U1 still does big damage. And yes, Y&Y players are afraid of it. If they land a wrong dive kick…there ass is grass from a charged U1.

But choice of ultra, again, is for preference. If your good enough, you’ll make either of them work out.

575

U1 should be picked when facing Fuerte now IMO

576

I really don’t think ultra slection is really a debateable point in AE against 75% on the cast. Ryu, Sagat, Akuma? U2. Yun, Yang, Cammy, Rufus, Hakan, Juri, Abel, Viper, Dictator, Zangief? U1. I think there are still some debatable matchups though.

Adon - I once said U1 is a must here, but I really liked how Dieminion used U2 on reaction to jag kicks while walking back against gamerbee. Still… the damage sucks and if you mess up your motions, you eat a jag kick whereas with U1 you can end in up-back, effectively blocking most of the time.

Cody/Ken/Gouken/Seth - Essentially, you almost need to know who your fighting here. Maybe your playing a rock happy cody or a divekick happy gouken. I think U2 is a good default if you don’t know… but then again, you always have Crumple > U1 comeback… and EVERYONE jumps eventually. (Especially Gouken).

  • Blanka/Makoto/Claw - I’m sure you could drop more characters in this category, but it’s those guys who it seems there aren’t any true ultra landing situations against them. I think I normally stick with U1 here for fear factor, random jumps, or if I even need to just scrub out… but then again… I DO flashkick FADC a lot in these matchups.

Ya… that kind of stuff. Do keep in mind though as it has been said before, Guile isn’t a character that needs an Ultra to win. When you need a comeback and you have over 50 seconds on the clock, just play your game.

I got pushed back into a corner; near perfected by a Makoto player with about 100 health left. I threw a couple booms, dashed up, back throw into the corner, and was about to jump-in when I said “Wait, I’ve perfected this guy before with just a zoning game.” I think a lot of people have this messed up idea in their with what “clutch” means. IMO playing “clutch” is not connecting with a random wakeup ultra, it’s not doing a random dash ultra, it’s not doing a safe 50/50 into ultra, it’s definately not getting a lucky jump-in (into ultra)… it’s taking your game and playing it better and safer… all while under tremendous pressure.

Why am I ranting about this…? Purely boredom. cough Anyone have any input on those characters listed though?

577

I really don’t think ultra slection is really a debateable point in AE against 75% on the cast. Ryu, Sagat, Akuma? U2. Yun, Yang, Cammy, Rufus, Hakan, Juri, Abel, Viper, Dictator, Zangief? U1. I think there are still some debatable matchups though.

Adon - I once said U1 is a must here, but I really liked how Dieminion used U2 on reaction to jag kicks while walking back against gamerbee. Still… the damage sucks and if you mess up your motions, you eat a jag kick whereas with U1 you can end in up-back, effectively blocking most of the time.

Cody/Ken/Gouken/Seth - Essentially, you almost need to know who your fighting here. Maybe your playing a rock happy cody or a divekick happy gouken. I think U2 is a good default if you don’t know… but then again, you always have Crumple > U1 comeback… and EVERYONE jumps eventually. (Especially Gouken).

  • Blanka/Makoto/Claw - I’m sure you could drop more characters in this category, but it’s those guys who it seems there aren’t any true ultra landing situations against them. I think I normally stick with U1 here for fear factor, random jumps, or if I even need to just scrub out… but then again… I DO flashkick FADC a lot in these matchups.

Ya… that kind of stuff. Do keep in mind though as it has been said before, Guile isn’t a character that needs an Ultra to win. When you need a comeback and you have over 50 seconds on the clock, just play your game.

I got pushed back into a corner; near perfected by a Makoto player with about 100 health left. I threw a couple booms, dashed up, back throw into the corner, and was about to jump-in when I said “Wait, I’ve perfected this guy before with just a zoning game.” I think a lot of people have this messed up idea in their with what “clutch” means. IMO playing “clutch” is not connecting with a random wakeup ultra, it’s not doing a random dash ultra, it’s not doing a safe 50/50 into ultra, it’s definately not getting a lucky jump-in (into ultra)… it’s taking your game and playing it better and safer… all while under tremendous pressure.

Why am I ranting about this…? Purely boredom. cough Anyone have any input on those characters listed though?

578

I really don’t think ultra slection is really a debateable point in AE against 75% on the cast. Ryu, Sagat, Akuma? U2. Yun, Yang, Cammy, Rufus, Hakan, Juri, Abel, Viper, Dictator, Zangief? U1. I think there are still some debatable matchups though.

Adon - I once said U1 is a must here, but I really liked how Dieminion used U2 on reaction to jag kicks while walking back against gamerbee. Still… the damage sucks and if you mess up your motions, you eat a jag kick whereas with U1 you can end in up-back, effectively blocking most of the time.

Cody/Ken/Gouken/Seth - Essentially, you almost need to know who your fighting here. Maybe your playing a rock happy cody or a divekick happy gouken. I think U2 is a good default if you don’t know… but then again, you always have Crumple > U1 comeback… and EVERYONE jumps eventually. (Especially Gouken).

  • Blanka/Makoto/Claw - I’m sure you could drop more characters in this category, but it’s those guys who it seems there aren’t any true ultra landing situations against them. I think I normally stick with U1 here for fear factor, random jumps, or if I even need to just scrub out… but then again… I DO flashkick FADC a lot in these matchups.

Ya… that kind of stuff. Do keep in mind though as it has been said before, Guile isn’t a character that needs an Ultra to win. When you need a comeback and you have over 50 seconds on the clock, just play your game.

I got pushed back into a corner; near perfected by a Makoto player with about 100 health left. I threw a couple booms, dashed up, back throw into the corner, and was about to jump-in when I said “Wait, I’ve perfected this guy before with just a zoning game.” I think a lot of people have this messed up idea in their with what “clutch” means. IMO playing “clutch” is not connecting with a random wakeup ultra, it’s not doing a random dash ultra, it’s not doing a safe 50/50 into ultra, it’s definately not getting a lucky jump-in (into ultra)… it’s taking your game and playing it better and safer… all while under tremendous pressure.

Why am I ranting about this…? Purely boredom. cough Anyone have any input on those characters listed though?

579

Triple post FTL slinkun lol… but your point about playing clutch makes alot of sense and I’m going to keep that in mind for future tight situations. I’m very guilty of suddenly going into ‘zomg stop everything and only try to land the dash-ultra’ mode when I could’ve just played normally for a higher chance of winning.

Regarding ultra’s I still use U1 against everyone including the fireballers mostly because I’m not at all confident in my fireball reaction SH ability. Haven’t tried using U2 against air-fireball approaches though so that’s probably a good idea.

Pretty much agree with your character ultra choices though. Makoto’s I play like to use her U2 against Guile so our U1 is a nice deterrent for that. One guy tried to chip me to death from full-screen and I reversal U1ed for the win although that was risky as he could’ve faked the distance.

Seth… U1 does a billion damage to him… if he drops a lightning-legs combo or does a wall-jump and you’re ready for it, he’s toast.

Cody is an oddball. Frame traps are so annoying and they’re difficult to focus since they’re so fast. It’s not TOO difficult to see what strength of Criminal Upper he used so if he whiffs one it’s a decent U1 opportunity I think. Again, no obvious uses for U2 so I’d just go with the stronger one.

Bleh if I just had better reactions to fireballs I might see U2 in a brighter light. Right now I’m more reliant on prediction than actually seeing the fireball start to come out and then U2 because of it.

580

And while we are still on the topic so conveniently, Guile vs. Dhalsim from a recent Japanese tourney!

[media=youtube]P34K6IbbsRQ[/media]

Match starts at 3:24.