Guile General Discussion: Go home and be a family man

[Yari]

If Guile is good, it’s not going to be from a jump-in + V-trigger + CA combo, no matter how much damage it deals (and btw, 500 damage is nothing spectacular for so many resources spent).
Most of the characters (especially the top tiers) draw their strenght from converting medium attacks into big damage from a decent distance and a safe confirm, and Guile is absolute ass at that.

Wut?

whatever SB> cr.HK/backhand/straight punch/Super
max ranged cr.MK/Backhand/Straight punch/st.HK (VTC)> Super
max ranged cr.MP> HP SB (VTC)> dash st.HP stuff> Super
LPs> HP SB (VTC)> dash st.HP stuff> Super
more or less max ranged backhand (VTC)> HP SB> MP Break xN> dash dash dash cr.HK (easy corner carry)

All these examples either do high damage or stun or corner carry, and they’re all midscreen combos.
So yea… he’s not “absolute ass at that”.

[Azurean]

whatever SB> cr.HK/backhand/straight punch/Super

As I said, almost no special-cancellable normals, in fact the only medium is cr.MP. So yeah, you can do cr.MP>SB>cr.HK… Except you wont have the charge unless you’ve been camping and the opponent walked into your cr.MP.

max ranged cr.MK/Backhand/Straight punch/st.HK (VTC)> Super
max ranged cr.MP> HP SB (VTC)> dash st.HP stuff> Super
LPs> HP SB (VTC)> dash st.HP stuff> Super
more or less max ranged backhand (VTC)> HP SB> MP Break xN> dash dash dash cr.HK (easy corner carry)

All these require V-trigger to go beyond 100 damage. If that’s not a proof he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals, I don’t know what you need.

[Whizard]

Ive just come to the conclusion that he is pretty terrible.

His FK’s don’t hit shit and have the range of my tongue, his normals are slow and just seem to pass through everyone’s models like they are ghosts and there are so many anti zoning tools in this game it renders him useless. Once gief has V trigger it’s game over, you can’t throw booms or you instantly die. It’s pathetic and it’s not fun loosing to a had acted than can jab you 3 times and then still command grab you.

What a joke.

Bring on Balrog, unless they also make him underpowered in which case, shieeeet

The issue here is a skill gap, not Guile.

So when I beat him with Ryu after where did the skill gap go my friend?

Guile is trash, he was good because he had great normals in 4 but now they are so sluggish and they suck.

They make these new characters worse than the OG cast because otherwise there would be an uproar about “pay to win”. It will be the same wth every DLC character.

This is excluding fang of course.

Maybe you’re less shitty with ryu than you are with guile? You sound salty as fuck. Bronze suspicion is growing.

I was salty AF yeah, this game is annoying 40% of the time. And I would probably go down to bronze if I used Guile in ranked.

Also, someone has to agree his flash kick is utter shite I mean… It doesn’t even punish a blocked sweep haha! Its range is so short it might as well just go straight up

[Iduno]

Urgh liking Guile so far but fucking Dhalsim feels horrible for Guile, he just gets to straight up ignore his zoning and his slides go under Guile’s best pokes, not got a clue what I’m meant to do here.

[Yari]

As I said, almost no special-cancellable normals, in fact the only medium is cr.MP. So yeah, you can do cr.MP>SB>cr.HK… Except you wont have the charge unless you’ve been camping and the opponent walked into your cr.MP.

Well, cr.MP happens to be one of his best normals that always combos into SB (that goes into the loop) even at max range.

All these require V-trigger to go beyond 100 damage. If that’s not a proof he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals, I don’t know what you need.

So you want him to be able to convert at max range into something big easily without resources? I’m sorry, this is just not sensible and you dont understand where his other strengths are if you think that “he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals”, because there are characters who can’t even do that with resources, so in general I think Guile is fine on this department?

You would be right if you had said “he cant convert at max ranges without resources or counters”, but even then that wont make him any less capable than most characters.

[Whizard]

As I said, almost no special-cancellable normals, in fact the only medium is cr.MP. So yeah, you can do cr.MP>SB>cr.HK… Except you wont have the charge unless you’ve been camping and the opponent walked into your cr.MP.

Well, cr.MP happens to be one of his best normals that always combos into SB (that goes into the loop) even at max range.

All these require V-trigger to go beyond 100 damage. If that’s not a proof he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals, I don’t know what you need.

So you want him to be able to convert at max range into something big easily without resources? I’m sorry, this is just not sensible and you dont understand where his other strengths are if you think that “he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals”, because there are characters who can’t even do that with resources, so in general I think Guile is fine on this department?

You would be right if you had said “he cant convert at max ranges without resources or counters”, but even then that wont make him any less weaker than most.

So what other characters are you referring to that can’t confirm into big damage from long ranges? Don’t forget Guile is charge so he can’t just get a hit and confirm it into whatever he likes.

In SFIV it was much easier to get in with charge but in this game it’s not. In this game you can take 60% for getting one normal blocked.

Guile cannot convert anything into big damage unless you get a perfect jump in which doesn’t happen in V because it’s so easy to anti air.

[Whizard]

I spose I can’t be that mad when even daigo is loosing to silvers with guile >.>

[Naeras]

So what other characters are you referring to that can’t confirm into big damage from long ranges? Don’t forget Guile is charge so he can’t just get a hit and confirm it into whatever he likes.

Nash.

In SFIV it was much easier to get in with charge but in this game it’s not. In this game you can take 60% for getting one normal blocked.

That’s true for most characters, but not for Guile. The vast majority of his moves are completely safe on block.

Guile cannot convert anything into big damage unless you get a perfect jump in which doesn’t happen in V because it’s so easy to anti air.

Sure. I just don’t think he needs it with how good he is at controlling the neutral.
Also, do you honestly think it’s easier to AA in this game, compared to other SF-games? Because I completely disagree with that notion (SF4 divekicks notwithstanding), though that’s partially because I’m still not used to the input lag in the game.

[LiangHuBBB]

came back from work running some games online, while guile has some of the most flashy combos in this game, my first overall impression is
SF4 vanilla guile is back
sry I had to say that, but anyway it’s way too early to tell how strong guile rly is
give me and anyone else 2-3 weeks and I will report back

[Azurean]

As I said, almost no special-cancellable normals, in fact the only medium is cr.MP. So yeah, you can do cr.MP>SB>cr.HK… Except you wont have the charge unless you’ve been camping and the opponent walked into your cr.MP.

Well, cr.MP happens to be one of his best normals that always combos into SB (that goes into the loop) even at max range.

For the third time, I’m talking about his openers. I don’t care if you can put four cr.MP>SB in a combo, what openers does he have to start combos ? Spam his slow-ass Backhand Fist while crossing fingers for a CH ? Jump-in and hope your opponent misses his anti-air instead of just blocking ?

So you want him to be able to convert at max range into something big easily without resources? I’m sorry, this is just not sensible and you dont understand where his other strengths are if you think that “he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals”, because there are characters who can’t even do that with resources, so in general I think Guile is fine on this department?

You would be right if you had said “he cant convert at max ranges without resources or counters”, but even then that wont make him any less capable than most characters.

“Confirming damage from ranged normals” =/= “confirming at max range”. I said “ranged normals” because I felt you could be hypocrital enough to show me his big combos from a st.HP - because you’re totally going to use a short-range, 7f start-up, -4 on block normal as a combo starter.
For the sake of discussion, I’ll define “confirm a mid-range normal” at the maximum distance where Ryu can do 2 st.MP in a row followed by a HP Shoryu. It deals 220 damage. At this distance, Ryu, Ken, Karin, Cammy, Chun-Li, Mika, Bison, Nash, Necalli, Vega can deal 200 damage or more. Birdie, Dhalsim, Laura,Rashid, deal slightly less (about 180). F.A.N.G and Zangief do a lot less, which is one of the factors that makes them bottom-tier. Right now, Guile’s confirm from a mid-range normal is F.A.N.G/Zangief’s level of awfulness.

I’ll repeat again, I’m not saying that Guile is good or bad. Just that this huge weakness should be taken in account when judging him - which feels a lot more important than “omg so much dmg from a corner jump-in + v-trigger + CA so godlike”.

[Whizard]

So what other characters are you referring to that can’t confirm into big damage from long ranges? Don’t forget Guile is charge so he can’t just get a hit and confirm it into whatever he likes.

Nash.

In SFIV it was much easier to get in with charge but in this game it’s not. In this game you can take 60% for getting one normal blocked.

That’s true for most characters, but not for Guile. The vast majority of his moves are completely safe on block.

Guile cannot convert anything into big damage unless you get a perfect jump in which doesn’t happen in V because it’s so easy to anti air.

Sure. I just don’t think he needs it with how good he is at controlling the neutral.
Also, do you honestly think it’s easier to AA in this game, compared to other SF-games? Because I completely disagree with that notion (SF4 divekicks notwithstanding), though that’s partially because I’m still not used to the input lag in the game.

Nash is a good point, but I think he has a bigger plethora of tools to allow him to get in and due to him being a motion character he doesn’t have to worry about charge while getting in close to set up nasty combos.

I need to check that frame data list again then.

Yeah but he barely takes any damage at neutral. Every game I’ve played where it’s been mostly neutral has finished below 10 seconds, the days of street fighter IV Rush down guile have passed it seems. Maybe I just don’t get on with playing him as an actual zoner.

Also I do think it’s a little easier to react to the jumps in this game, to me they seem a little more floaty. Unless you’re bringing rose, chun li or dhalsim into the equation lol.

[kylebr]

If you want a “medium, medium xx special” kind of character, then don’t pick Guile. Yes, it’s not straight forward to convert into damage with him, but he does tools to offset that. He got an excellent set of normals (ppl saying his normals are slow apparently are still playing SFIV), great walkspeed, a meterless two-hit fireball that not only helps him to build V-Gauge but also juggles for more damage (who else has that?) and an amazing V-Trigger that enhances his zoning and CA and allows more setups and combo options.

So yeah, Ryu does more damage (practical damage at least), but Guile has a way better neutral imo (better normals, fireball and walkspeed). I am gonna just stick with Guile and sub Chun for a while.

[Azurean]

If you want a “medium, medium xx special” kind of character, then don’t pick Guile. Yes, it’s not straight forward to convert into damage with him, but he does tools to offset that.

Than you for defending this opinion in an polite way. It’s really refreshing after all the passive-aggresiveness in this page

He got an** excellent set of normals** (ppl saying his normals are slow apparently are still playing SFIV)

I’ll rephrase my last post : Ken’s cr.MP is 5f start-up, +1 on block, deals 250 damage, builds a lot of meter and brings the opponent in the corner. Does Guile have any normals that are remotely as good ? Because I haven’t found any.

great walkspeed, a meterless two-hit fireball that not only helps him to build V-Gauge but also juggles for more damage (who else has that?) and an amazing V-Trigger that enhances his zoning and CA and allows more setups and combo options.

If that’s all he has, he’ll have a hard time with all the projectile-invincible attacks in this game. Again, I hope I’ll be proven wrong.

[kylebr]

So what Ken’s cr.MP is better than Guile’s? In fact, the cr.MP in itself is not even that better, Guile’s is just a frame slower. It doesn’t lead to big damage because that is not what Guile was designed for.

I meant the whole set of normals, and they are fine for what Guile was designed to do, keep the opponent away. In terms of range, start-up and frame advantage they are fine.

There aren’t many projectile invincible moves in SFV to begin with. And most of anti-projectile moves in SFV are beaten by two-hit projectiles. Guile has a meterless one.

[Whizard]

If you want a “medium, medium xx special” kind of character, then don’t pick Guile. Yes, it’s not straight forward to convert into damage with him, but he does tools to offset that.

Than you for defending this opinion in an polite way. It’s really refreshing after all the passive-aggresiveness in this page

He got an** excellent set of normals** (ppl saying his normals are slow apparently are still playing SFIV)

I’ll rephrase my last post : Ken’s cr.MP is 5f start-up, +1 on block, deals 250 damage, builds a lot of meter and brings the opponent in the corner. Does Guile have any normals that are remotely as good ? Because I haven’t found any.

great walkspeed, a meterless two-hit fireball that not only helps him to build V-Gauge but also juggles for more damage (who else has that?) and an amazing V-Trigger that enhances his zoning and CA and allows more setups and combo options.

If that’s all he has, he’ll have a hard time with all the projectile-invincible attacks in this game. Again, I hope I’ll be proven wrong.

I agree, I’m sticking with him for the time being still.

He has no good source damage output in mid range. Or anywhere really. You can’t just get a jump in 35 hit combo mid match unless you stun them.

He has no options off of his normals and you can’t generate any damage with his charge because of the types of combos in this game when you eventually make it in close.

[Whizard]

So what Ken’s cr.MP is better than Guile’s? In fact, the cr.MP in itself is not even that better, Guile’s is just a frame slower. It doesn’t lead to big damage because that is not what Guile was designed for.

I meant the whole set of normals, and they are fine for what Guile was designed to do, keep the opponent away. In terms of range, start-up and frame advantage they are fine.

There aren’t many projectile invincible moves in SFV to begin with. And most of anti-projectile moves in SFV are beaten by two-hit projectiles. Guile has a meterless one.

But zoning isn’t really a thing in SFV… It’s not effective. Every character has a tool to blow the use of fireballs up completely

[Yari]

For the third time, I’m talking about his openers. I don’t care if you can put four cr.MP>SB in a combo, what openers does he have to start combos ? Spam his slow-ass Backhand Fist while crossing fingers for a CH ? Jump-in and hope your opponent misses his anti-air instead of just blocking ?

Openers? How do you open up people in this game (in general)? Do you know at least the basic concepts of how offense works in this game? If you do not, then it’s pointless continuing this discussion.

“Confirming damage from ranged normals” =/= “confirming at max range”. I said “ranged normals” because I felt you could be hypocrital enough to show me his big combos from a st.HP

wut², how’s “Confirming damage from ranged normals” different from “confirming at max range”? I literally gave you combo examples off of his normals that had most reach, so if that’s not it, what examples do you want? Explain the difference without throwing funny remarks in your sentence or I’ll stop taking this discussion seriously.

st.HP isnt even good as a meaty or combo starter (it’s very unsafe on block), it’s only a filler that leads into the big combos off most starters, so…???

For the sake of discussion, I’ll define “confirm a mid-range normal” at the maximum distance where Ryu can do 2 st.MP in a row followed by a HP Shoryu

This is a bad example because no character has identical effective ranges nor have the same combo potential at different ranges. But ok, let’s go with that (and forget that discussing solely in terms of damage is whack for N reasons).
Yes it’s true, Ryu gets easy damage off those ranges without the limitations of a charge character, I get that and this much is obvious and that’s why he’s one of the best characters.
Guile can’t do that, yes, but calling that a huge “weakness” is wrong because that’s how he was designed. And that’s ok because he excels in so many other aspects that this “weakness” ends up making up for the rest.

Guile doesnt look like godlike because of “omg 500 from a jump-in + v-trigger + CA so godlike”, it’s because he:
-Has a very good neutral game (V-Skill> Sonic Boom is a strong tool)
-Strong defenses (solid antiairs, airthrows, good grounded normals in general, throw invul move)
-Good setups
-Huge Damage/Stun potential when he gets V-Gauge
-Even greater Damage/Stun potential when he gets meter
-Good crush counters
-Gets meter easily
-Can convert into something borderline devastating if he’s willing to spend meter
-Gets max ranged confirms into Super with meter

yadda yadda

[strizzmatik]

Guile’s CA is unsafe on hit vs. anyone with a 7f or less CA up close or in corner. They can eat the entire CA, quick rise, and counter with their own CA guaranteed during the recovery. So that sucks.

[strizzmatik]

Edit: video was taken down

[Wikum]

I spose I can’t be that mad when even daigo is loosing to silvers with guile >.>

Everyone is pretty crap with him right now because on the surface he seems like SF4 Guile but he’s not like him whatsoever.

As I said, almost no special-cancellable normals, in fact the only medium is cr.MP. So yeah, you can do cr.MP>SB>cr.HK… Except you wont have the charge unless you’ve been camping and the opponent walked into your cr.MP.

Well, cr.MP happens to be one of his best normals that always combos into SB (that goes into the loop) even at max range.

For the third time, I’m talking about his openers. I don’t care if you can put four cr.MP>SB in a combo, what openers does he have to start combos ? Spam his slow-ass Backhand Fist while crossing fingers for a CH ? Jump-in and hope your opponent misses his anti-air instead of just blocking ?

So you want him to be able to convert at max range into something big easily without resources? I’m sorry, this is just not sensible and you dont understand where his other strengths are if you think that “he’s absolute ass at confirming damage from ranged normals”, because there are characters who can’t even do that with resources, so in general I think Guile is fine on this department?

You would be right if you had said “he cant convert at max ranges without resources or counters”, but even then that wont make him any less capable than most characters.

“Confirming damage from ranged normals” =/= “confirming at max range”. I said “ranged normals” because I felt you could be hypocrital enough to show me his big combos from a st.HP - because you’re totally going to use a short-range, 7f start-up, -4 on block normal as a combo starter.
For the sake of discussion, I’ll define “confirm a mid-range normal” at the maximum distance where Ryu can do 2 st.MP in a row followed by a HP Shoryu. It deals 220 damage. At this distance, Ryu, Ken, Karin, Cammy, Chun-Li, Mika, Bison, Nash, Necalli, Vega can deal 200 damage or more. Birdie, Dhalsim, Laura,Rashid, deal slightly less (about 180). F.A.N.G and Zangief do a lot less, which is one of the factors that makes them bottom-tier. Right now, Guile’s confirm from a mid-range normal is F.A.N.G/Zangief’s level of awfulness.

I’ll repeat again, I’m not saying that Guile is good or bad. Just that this huge weakness should be taken in account when judging him - which feels a lot more important than “omg so much dmg from a corner jump-in + v-trigger + CA so godlike”.

Yea everyone has been focusing on this part too much. That combo is great and everything, but you’re only going to hit that combo on a stunned opponent (unless someone finds a good setup). If you get to the part you’ve stunned your opponent in a game, a simple bnb into CA will be enough to finish them off anyways.