Group Photo Ops- The Frank West Team Building Thread

Classic Fighting Games Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3
1061

Hi everyone! I always come to frank thread and now I want to share my results with nova/frank/dante

well…Nova/Frank works great! I dont have problems with them, the only uncomfortable thing I have is Dante, Anchor Dante is really good but I cant play with him, and I dont feel good playing with him, I know that jam session is really good with frank lvl4/5 a and you have a lot of mixups, incoming and etc with that assist, but I dont know if is viable to run nova/frank/doom, I play doom anchor and I love that bastard and I feel comfortable with him, I expect your answers and advices as always :smiley:

see ya!!!

1062

YOU ARE…DEFEATED! Btw I watched that whole Az vs. team Hitbox from your Barfights night yesterday, and sickkk work! That’s what I’m talkin about with making that optimized stuff visible!

Yeah I feel your pain there. I used a lot of anchors for Nova/Frank before I decided to buckle down and learn anchor Dante…and it was rough for a little while. Hmmmm…I mean Dante is very good for Frank, but he’s not your only anchor option. I would personally avoid Doom though, so focusing on why:

  1. Leveling tech…It just doesn’t work out that well if Nova dies. Yes, if Nova gets the level you’re in solid shape. If he doesn’t…Frank/Doom is just not that great. I know Apologyman has made it work in tournaments, and his Doom is very good, but from what I remember, his games generally broke down into three categories: a) Skrull levels Frank and Frank stomps everyone b) Doom scrapes out a comeback because Frank couldn’t level well c) he lost. It’s just hard to justify running Frank over someone else when your team isn’t streamlined for him.

  2. Assists…what assist do you run here? It’s really gotta be Plasma Beam, right? Level 1 Frank with Missiles just isn’t good IMO, but I realize not everyone agrees with me there. But think about this…Frank doesn’t always win when he levels. If he levels and dies, and you’re stuck with Nova/Missiles…man that sounds awful lol–a worse version of Nova/Jam Session that I was talking about a few posts ago. Nova/Plasma is totally legit, and you really need to go that route IMO to keep your team from being disfunctionally front-heavy. So you run Plasma Beam…and Frank levels and now you have Cent Rush (could use for incoming and combos) and Plasma Beam…which is amazing for Frank’s ground/jump-height game…where he already excels. Losing air control keeps even level 5 Frank from being at his best.

So, if you really like Doom and you’re strong with him, why don’t you think about running him on point? He has DHC whiff levels similar to Nova’s, and you could stop binding yourself to Cent Rush assist and open up your options. Missiles/Frank/Cold Star wouldn’t be that bad…It’s not optimal for a point Doom team because it doesn’t have Jam Session (again :P), but even so, it’s probably got some potential. Post-level, you have Doom/Ammy in the back for follow-my-leads, and you could run Missiles/Cold Star to support Frank and at least have some horizontal/vertical coverage. Again, I really just don’t like Missiles for Frank, but if you’re not going to run Jam Session, it’ll do in a pinch.

If you mess with that and it doesn’t work…you’re going to have similar assist problems with most of the anchors that pair well with Nova/Frank, but you could try Rocket Raccoon (Log Trap). It’s decent, and I know Zansam gets (got? do you [ @Zansam ] still play that team?) mileage out of them. I like RR a little better as a Frank point character because you get immediate access to Mad Hopper DHC/incoming setups when Frank levels (as opposed to limiting them to when Nova dies and Frank levels via RR). Also his level tech is veryyyy good.

1063

Personally when I look at the difference between the two in that shell the first question I’m asking myself is “who gets more utility out of Jam session?” and the answer IMO is easily Magneto. He can universally convert off it which solid combos (whereas Nova may be forced to use Air S in some situations, killing his scaling, combo potential and meter gain even worse after an already shitty jam session convert), he doesn’t have to use bounces in the process, and he scales better than Nova.

That said, obviously one or the other could be a superior choice depending on the match. Going up against say, Wolverine, Nova’s going to be better off whereas Mangeto may fare better against say, Spencer. Another consideration is reliability. On paper Mags/Frank/Dante can put up the damage/meter gain/chainsaw snapshots comparable to the braindead “Power of the FRANK”, but the reality may not be the same,

Here’s a good example: a fairly decent local player used to have a respectable Zero and did pretty well with him. He dropped him and started playing point Wesker. I asked him why, and he told me “I don’t trust myself to reliably do lightning loops in tournament.” It’s unfortunate, but I respected his decision; assessing what you can and can’t do reliably and building teams on any limitations is important, even if it makes a bit of a downgrade. I myself know most of Frank’s optimal combos and rarely do them because I don’t trust myself to hit them reliably in the critical situations.

TL:DR, pick what works best for you.

I could write a whole paper on the Nova/Frank shell and how to try to fill the anchor slot. Hell, I probably did at some point. The long and short of Nova/Frank/RR is as follows.

1 You’ve already brought an inherent risk into your time by having Frank. If you get chainsaws, you’ll win above 50%. If you don’t, you’ll easily lose above 50%.
2 Raccoon offers strong neutral, great synergy and multiple ways to level Frank in exchange for having a terrible anchor. Don’t expect comebacks against experienced players. Lots of characters beat him for free. This frontloads the team, which is good for chainsaw odds but bad for general marvel play.
3 Your neutral does little to help your bad matchups. Bionic arm and Vergil’s Standing H don’t care about Log trap or shopping cart. They do however help your ok matchups (Dante/Morrigan/Zero).
4 The team can win locals. It can probably win regionals. It will not win majors. It has a ceiling.

1064

Agreed 100%, but I remember you saying something like “if you can do those combos” when T37 Rampage posted his original videos, so I do want to add something about practicality.

Hard tagging Frank from Magneto is not the same as hard tagging, say, Doom. In Doom’s case you really do want to use the real EMP loop tag and sj.H add.S because you’re following up with a combo that 1) doesn’t want the extra scaling and 2) needs HSD to be as low as possible to make the tag worth the effort. When people say “yeah just EMP into Frank,” they’re not thinking practicality.

In Frank’s case, you should always be tagging with sj.MH add.S (or addf.S outside the corner), and this is bafflingly easy. Your goal is, first and foremost, to build meter, and then second to do as much damage as possible with Magneto (assuming your opponent has decent health) because Frank’s follow-up has a fixed damage output. Therefore, all Magneto combos should be full combos, damage scaling should be pretty much maxed, and there is literally no con to using sj.MH instead of sj.H. When you add the medium, the timing becomes as undroppable as anything we do. Yeah, my fingers can seize up and I can miss an input. Hell, I’ve missed a “Power of the FRANK” because I was mashing too hard and screwed up the motion. I’ve let Nova’s hyper rock too long because I was DHC’ing early for a follow-up and wanted to make sure I got 50 hits. Everything is droppable of course. My goal is just to emphasize that Magneto’s hard to is, execution-wise, probably the easiest part of his combo if you’re doing an intermediate BnB (say the FChamp combo).

HSD is a non-factor for the tag. The rule is: if you can do one more Hypergrav loop do it and you’ll still be able to tag. If one more Hypergrav loop is going to cause a flip-out, tag now and you’re good. (Edit: More than “good” actually, because when you reach the “one more will cause a flip-out point” you can still do sjuf add.S s.H, launch and hit the tag. I did that in my video, but for consistency’s sake, I wouldn’t in real play.)

Also, because Frank’s follow-up after the THC doesn’t vary, it’s actually surprisingly easy to replicate. By the time I’d finished that video I was able to consistently do his full follow-up in both on and offline play, and you can always do T37 Rampage’s version, eliminate the L Zombie, and simplify the whole thing. Hell, you can just THC, Knee Drop, Tools H, Roundhouse M, (Jam Session), Snapshot, Roundhouse M, Roundhouse H, and you’ll kill most characters without even having to think about it. I know Fizzykups defaults to a variation on the optimized version in tournament play, and I’m pretty sure he’s never once dropped it on stream (the streams I’ve watched anyway).

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that, because your emphasis on practicality is really important. I thought it necessary to underscore how not “pure theory” (or even “semi-theory”) the Mag/Frank combos are.

1065

My god! great answer and info about how to get an anchor for frank, I like running Doom on point and I will have cold star for shell set up, I just have to learn again ammy but I think it wont be so dificult, its like strider. Thanks for the great advice!! Im going to the lab :slight_smile:

1066

While not 100% ideal, could anyone give me advice on Vergil/Frank/Deadpool and Spencer/Frank/Deadpool.

Deadpool needs to stay because because that is the only character my little cousin really wants to play.

I’m trying to think of the most broken team and I know that Dante seems like most obvious choice but I don’t think Deadpool/Dante/Frank can do enough damage.

1067

Well…I might see one problem with both Vergil and Spencer there…probably moreso Spencer. Essentially, you’re going to have a hard time getting 50 hits with Spencer alone and ending with 80k/tag on that team. Ideally you’d have an install hyper behind Spencer, so that you could do a full combo (no hyper), tag Frank (Spencer goes to anchor), and then Snapshot Survival Techniques xx Install Hyper, tag Frank, (preferably double picture assist) Snapshot, Roundhouse M, Tools H, and finish the combo. Spencer gives enough hits to work well in that case, but Spencer/Frank/Deadpool would essentially force you to do a Spencer combo into Bionic Maneuvers and DHC whiff with Frank so that you can use a double picture assist (I don’t think you have time after an 80k/tag). It’s not perfect, but it’d probably get you level 4.

Vergil is probably a little better for this because he can usually set up all the hits you need and Lunar Phase (is that the ground bounce move?) into a hard tag. You could also Round Trip early and tag Frank in to combo and do what he does, and you’d have install supers behind you to ensure level 4 if you’ve used assists already. I’d probably go with this one. Frank isn’t…great…with Rapid Slash, but he can definitely use it.

Whatever you do, run Quick Work instead of Katanarama. The latter’s great for combos, but you really want that high/low option that you get with Quick Work if you’re limiting your neutral assist possibilities to Rapid Slash and Grapple.

I would actually say that Deadpool/Dante/Frank has potential to be significantly better than either of those, though. Obviously the catch here is that you need a solid Dante in order to get a hit and level Frank if Deadpool dies, but it’s still pretty good. Your ideal level-up would be a short Deadpool combo into Quick Work, Teleport (forget which one), tag Frank to continue the combo, and then THC with Dante and add the follow-ups I posted for Mags (although you could also get Quick Work in there for a longer one since it’s HSD immune). You also always have the option of doing some corner carry combo with Deadpool and DHC’ing into Dante for a Skydance/hard tag Frank.

I actually haven’t messed with that team in the lab before, but I know Cape has. If the Dante setup interests you/your cousin, maybe @TheCape can share what he’s found for it. I think it’s a solid team for sure.

Otherwise you’d have to test your options with Spencer to make sure they’re ok, but I’m assuming Vergil will work better there.

1068

Are you able to do a THC with Spencer/Deadpool and do an 80k at the end of Deadpool’s Super?

1069

Bionic Arm’s shorter than Blue Light Special, right? Frank can Snapshot off of Deadpool’s THC, so I assume you can 80k. That’s a good point.

1070

This is very basic but I was thinking I’ll be able to level Frank up the same way as Bee and FizzyKups:

Oh, and Katana-Rama resets Vergil’s Ground Bounces so you can get really decent amounts of hits before raw tagging in Frank.

1071

You can. It lets you run Deadpool second if you want. Both Deadpool and Spencer have hard tags to Frank

1072

We’re gonna try Deadpool/Dante/Frank. Any tech we need to know?

1073

I’ll see if I can get you a write up tonight. I’ve been playing around with that myself. Want to do some recording, but I haven’t had any time sadly.

1074

I don’t wanna play the team but I’m really interested in seeing what kind of tech there is.

1075

I am typing this from memory at work so lets see what I can remember:

Deadpool:
For my notations you will see this: CT is close teleport, being L or H to keep on the same side you are on, MT for medium, and FT for across the screen.
Deadpool has a few interesting setups for hard tags straight into Frank or through Dante with a DHC to Devil Trigger. The following are some examples:

cLcMsHxxQCB+HxxRSRK+FT HxxQCB+H HxxQCB+M S sjHS (dash) SRK+H~HxxRSRK+FT (dash) fM (call Dante) (jump backwards) QCF+L (land) QCB+H QCB+LxxSuper (Two meters only = Cuttin’ Time and DHC on hit 3 or 4 (depending on side) into DT, Three or more = HHT and DHC into Million Dollars to whiffed Survival Techniques).

cLcMsHxxQCB+HxxRSRK+FT (hard tag Frank) cLcMcHS sjLLMMHS (jump + call deadpool) QCF+H (dash back) cHS HS then whatever finisher you want such as THC or Dante assist + pictures)

You can also (if you keep your wall bounce) DHC to Dante from a failed Teleport to aerial HHT into DT. You call Deadpool Quick Work assist and do df+HHHH~fH (Bold Cancel) QCF+H and hard tag Frank.

Frank:
Forward throw can follow up either either assist:
FThrow (call Dante) QCF+S (dash) jMMHS jMMHS cHS LLMMHS then any finisher (you can DHC into Dante, THC, etc)
FThrow (dash back + call Deadpool Quickwork) QCF+S cLcMS sjMMxxQCF+L jMxxQCF+L MS then whatever finisher you want such as THC or Dante assist + pictures)
FThrow (dash back + call Deadpool Quickwork) QCF+S (dashing jump) jLLMMH jMMHS cHS LLMMHS then whatever finisher you want such as THC or Dante assist + pictures) This is HARD

You can also do things with both assists like cLcMsH(with assist and timing varies)xxQCB+L (dash) jMMHS jMMHS etc

You get unblockables with Deadpool assist and you get incoming FFC setups with Dante assist.

Both THCs allow you to get a picture. With Deadpool you have time to knee drop or SRK+M in the corner first.

Dante:
Deadpool’s assist allows Dante to combo off his throws as well as a nice extension at the end of a combo. When ending a combo with double volcano~beehive you can instead do this: Volcano~Beehive fH(and Deadpool) (Bold Cancel) Volcano (Deadpool hits after) (Jump cancel) QCF+H then Beehive then whatever (I usually do fH(BC)QCB+H~H).

You also have unblockable resets on Grapple Resets.

All:
You can use ALL of their crossover counters effectively. Frank can X-factor and kill a character and hit level 5 (as shown in Slippaz’s video). Dante can cancel his with X-factor or by using another meter for Devil Trigger. Deadpool can teleport cancel his into just about anything he wants.

Team has much much bs.

Now to look at MODOK, Dante, Frank. Already got some mean ideas for it…

1076

Excellent write-up Cape. I really like that team for a lot of reasons, but Deadpool just can’t get me to drop Mags haha :stuck_out_tongue: Now MODOK…that could be fun and there are a few situations in which Psionic Blast could be a little better thank Frank than Disruptor. I guess my biggest problem with that team is that I’m less confident (than with, say Deadpool), about the final order your level-up options give you…so you could DHC through Dante and tag Frank in, but you’re missing out on the damage that Spencer/Mags/even Deadpool can get by not wasting meter on an install super (and doing that 5% damage to set up Frank’s tag). Tagging Frank in means you’re running Frank/Dante/MODOK…and man that sounds kind problematic if Frank dies. I mean, Dante+Beam yeah…but still, it’s a high beam. It has massive durability, which is sick, but the height can keep you from taking advantage of it. And I think 44 frames is too slow to safely Stinger xx Teleport with it if your opponent is aware that it’s punishable. Even so, I think that team would be a lot of fun, but the synergy might not be quite as spot-on as it would be with Deadpool.

But yeah…so watching Fizzykups play over the weekend, I realized how hard I’ve been underestimating Spencer’s Grapple assist for Frank…oh my god that shit is good lol. Yeah, that’s always been there-ish watching Bee play, but (at least at the time of the last visible tourney) Bee doesn’t really seem to give a damn about updating his Frank stuff (gameplan, conversions, level tech). Watching that Grapple used well is just beautiful. If Magneto weren’t so much fun I’d probably be learning Spencer right now…

EMD all day though…bitches…

1077

Slippaz, you confused yourself. DHC from MODOK to Dante and tagging Frank gives you Frank, MODOK, Dante order. Would be the same if you did MODOK, Frank, Dante initially.

This gives you that Abegen set up of ground grab (MODOK) to air grab (Frank) that they cannot avoid, so that is just too sweet. Modok can also easily set up unblockables solo with either Jam Session or Shopping Cart in the corner. And can you just imagine how unfair jamming bombed people are on incoming when dealing with Frank? I think its at least worth looking at.

1078

Ahhh no I just wasn’t clear…when I said “tagging Frank in,” I meant using MODOK’s wall bounce/tag (à la Strange FoF loops) to maximize the levelup damage (THC, etc.). I was distinguishing that from the “so you could DHC through Dante and tag Frank in, but you’re missing out.” I didn’t realize that just eliminating the reference to Dante in the latter statement would leave things totally unclear lol. My fault.

So yes, my worry is only that you’re forced to waste meter on an install hyper (and possibly not even get a follow-up Survival Techniques) in order to get Frank/MODOK/Dante. If you optimize damage by tagging Frank in with no install hyper, you have Frank/Dante/MODOK, which sounds problematic.

EDIT: And no, I agree 100% it’s worth looking at! I was just pointing out the disadvantage with respect to the level-up tech. Things like Jamming Bomb mixups and the unblockable hyperxxhyper setup could be very good, and migt well balance out the lack of level-up damage. No question at all.

1079

Its in the infant stages. I’ll be digging for tech. If that hard tag setup works, I still might run MODOK, Frank, Dante, because then even if I get the worse case scenario of Lvl1 Frank I will still have some meter to combo into a Dante THC and get level 4 anyway. And if I hard tag in Frank from MODOK I can then set up those nasty throw to throw setups. The biggest loss on this team I feel is the loss of the unblockable with Deadpool assist, but I do get a DHC and self unblockable with MODOK, so it could go either way. I’ll have to explore the tech to see if its worth pursuing further.

Also, another piece of Deadpool tech I forgot about:

While you can do plenty of whiffed DHCs using the teleport explosion as stated in the large list of level up tech. You can also use the 4th or 5th hit of Cuttin Time to DHC into shopping cart and get a level up that way.

And another:
You can finish a combo with Frank by doing snapshot to OTG with the Deadpool quick work assist. Its a soft knockdown, but you can still cLxxA+S and then cancel to FFC in the corner. Good for people that have bad mobility in the air and high health (Hulk, She Hulk, Haggar). I suspect (haven’t tested) that you can call Deadpool’s assist with a camera shot off of FFC into a standard combo. I will have to look into that. Could go for some NICE damage.

1080

Hey guys I have been looking at the x/dante/frank shell for a while and after testing some different point characters I really like having raccoon on point for this team. I am new to playing rocket raccoon so I was wondering if anyone here has some point raccoon tech with frank. I already have hard tag combos as well as unblockables on incoming, just asking if anyone has some more cool tech.