x/Frank/Ammy is better than x/Frank/Dante when the point dies in my opinion. The main reason being that the THC shuts down the whole screen, with Dante, people can call assist and immediately superjump or fly and you’re screwed, with Frank/Ammy they pretty much can’t call an assist at all.
I spend 90% of my time with lv.1 Frank/Ammy just playing lame and watching the assist indicators, oh it went dark? Time to die.
Honestly in my experience, Frank + Ammy THC isn’t all good unless you’re in/near the corner. Frank’s Hyper pushes them far away from Shuffle’s Ice portion and that sometimes leads to Lightning missing completely. If they’re cornered, it’s good though
It doesn’t miss all that often for me, but honestly even if it does, i’m happy to blow the two meters to get some assist damage and get a free mixup on the point character, that’s more than you can guarantee against good players with Lv.1 Frank most of the time.
The thing is since Ice and Lightning whiff, there’s a chance Frank’s Hyper will go right past them and they’ll actually recover before you so they’ll punish you. I need to go back to testing this to explain it better.
Who would you lead off a team with for Frank/Ammy?
I personally like Firebrand…
Nova is a very good bet. I’d like to say Dante but then you’d have pretty low damage aside from Frank himself. Dante would seriously get like 300k damage pre-hyper from cart or cold star confirms. Honestly I’d almost prefer Ammy/Frank/Dante because Ammy gets to do work with jam and cart and you have ways to level up anyway. I wouldn’t be that far off by trying to argue that Ammy works better with Jam session than Dante does with Cold Star.
I’m gonna put Joe up front. I really like Joe with Cold Star, and I was partly inspired by the recent ft30 with Kusoru vs KBR. My primary way of leveling Frank will be through TAC, but Joe gets a nice set up off of it. Joe BNB > TAC to Frank > 3x paddle > Knee Drop > Camera > whiff Survival Techniques > DHC Slow. It gets Frank to level 3 and Joe gets a 50/50 off Slow with shopping cart. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like I can extend the combo further with cold star (like Kusoru does with log trap), but Ammy’s assist will give me a lot of utility in other areas.
You’re going to low damage with just about anybody who has bad minimum scaling with that pair. You’re also going to have the fundamental problem of having two assists that serve very similar purposes.
Yeah, it’s not really a pair that fleshes out many point characters unfortunately, i could see Magneto or Doom on point maybe.
So for people who use Nova/Frank…what Frank blockstring do you usually use to defend/set up an un-/hard-to-blockable with Cent Rush assist in neutral?
I’m trying to find one that minimizes the opponent’s pushblock opportunities. So like s.M(+Nova)f.H (dash) cr.H can be pretty safe at the right distance (except vs. supers if your opponent has reallyyy good reactions, but then you can Survival Tools), but a pushblock on the object throw destroys the mixup and possibly kills Nova. s.M(+Nova) L Zombie Toss times well and is safe vs. throws at any distance (the Zombie toss makes you take a step back), but isn’t safe vs. a few characters’ jabs (Vergil obviously lol). In my experience Frank’s chip normals mean that any j.M string has a high chance of being pushblocked.
What do you guys do to give the setup the best chance of connecting?
The short answer is “none”. Given Franks multi hitting normals being pushblock fodder, any setup is happy birthday potentially, using nova in combos denies you damage at the end of a combo, you may consume your ground bounce in the setup; and most importantly Frank doesn’t need to do left/right hi/low mixups to beat his opponents…I don’t put much effort into doing so beyond incoming mixups. And even then I’d rather guardbreak if possible
Frank is first and foremost a footsie/space denial character. Always look at him through that lens first.
This is late but not just no. Nova is a true top tier character with very few, if any, serious flaws. He also has some of the best non sword normals in the game because of their absurd priority. On the other hand Skrulls normals are borderline trash. He has no reliable way to get out of pressure. The other great thing about Nova is that he has stunningly few bad match ups. Skrull does add a lot more to the incoming mixups but as a character there’s simply no comparison.
As far as Apologyman is concerned you could say the same thing about someone like LLND and Hsien Ko or Fanatiq and Storm. But those characters still aren’t strong.
Apology man tends to win more from getting just ONE hit with Skrull that leads to 2 bars–allowing him to get to level 5 Frank for the win. If you pay attention he wins more because of Frank (or when he plays him, Firebrand) not because Skrull is a great character.
In who’s world is Nova top tier?
Best Normals? Jump H? And what else? His non-chainable, non low cr.L? His st.L that is not nearly as good an anti-air as many others? his st.H with no horizontal hitbox? His slow, unsafe launcher? His strings that are pretty much all pushblock whiff punishable?
No serious flaws? Ok, well he has next to zero flight mobility, his confirms from super jump height are either incredibly risky or lead to poor damage, his minimum scaling is incredibly low meaning he gets no damage off throws, he struggles to combat pushblock more than real tridashers like Magneto, he has no fast low, he has no great assists, poor projectile output, no invincible startup moves and below average life. What reliable way to get out of pressure does Nova have that Skrull doesn’t by the way?
Bad match ups? Well for starters Nova loses to Dante, Wolverine, Zero, Vergil and Spencer, so that’s most of the common point characters covered.
LLND does not compete with top level players over a period of time where they can actually learn the matchup, Fanatiq is (was) a great player, but still hasn’t done anything recently since people started to play cheaper stuff, and is now switching to Morridoom. Neither of those people play the characters in question on point either.
Yes, most of the work in AMans Frank team is done by Frank. That’s a Frank team for you. The point is the work is done by Frank + Lockdown Assist + Beam, a composition which is impossible with Nova, that’s my entire point, you don’t seem to disagree with it.
Again, Nova, better character, not by much. Skrull/Frank in my opinion, stronger pairing.
Does anybody have an idea how I can use Joe’s bomb assist to extend a Frank combo in the corner? I’m trying to figure out if I should use Voomerang assist or Bomb with Joe. Once I kill the point character and get Frank to lvl 4-5, I plan to keep him in and run Jam session mixups on the last 2 characters, just not sure if I should use Voom for neutral purposes or Bomb for combo extensions…
Considering with Jam session you should be able to get a level 4 combo off nearly any confirm, just run Voomerang for neutral. Its slow and takes up good space, making it very annoying and useful for Frank.
I agree with most of what you said, but not really with this. I think Apology man’s a great player, but I really think that the Frank + Lockdown + Beam composition not possible with Nova actually demonstrates why Skrull teams are inferior. First, beam + shopping cart isn’t totally redundant for your point character, but it’s not ideal/versatile. Second, Tenderizer is the worst good lockdown commonly assist commonly paired with Frank (comparing it to Jam Session and Cold Star) for various reasons. Doing roll + lockdown mixups with Frank might not be safe, but the only reason a player like Bee can get away with it is because Jam Session comes out so fast. Cold Star may have the same startup as Tenderizer, but at least it’s more useful vs. non-incoming characters. What does Tenderizer do in the neutral game? Tenderizer is also the worst of the 3 for combos because of the way it interacts with hit stun. More importantly, IMO Cent Rush M really performs as well as Tenderizer vs. incoming (and that is Tenderizer’s main function outside of combos). I mean think of how much damage Apologyman loses out on if he goes for j.S + Tenderizer and he catches an opponent swinging. There’s no backup gameplan there, he’s genuinely (much) better off if the the opponent pushblocks so he can FFC. If you do j.S + Cent Rush and you catch an opponent, you just buffer Tools L as you land (or s.H Tools L vs. Sentinel), go into grounded loops, and Nova automatically resets the ground bounce as you do your normal combo.
Equally importantly, characters that anchor well with Frank (and I personally put Ammy and Dante as my top 2 for that spot, but I realize that’s biased) often have good lockdown assists. Skrull/Frank/Ammy for example would…be problematic. (I should add that I think Doom /w Beam is a pretty miserable anchor for Frank, but I do think Apologyman’s Doom is *absurdly * good alone, so I see why he uses him.) With Dante you could use Weasel shot, but you’d still be stacking the hell out of horizontal control (as if Frank needs a beam assist anyway).
In a more general sense, I really just think Cent Rush is amazing for Frank even if it’s an unusual assist. It just really works well with him. If Frank teams are ideally about controlling the neutral game and ToD’ing meter positive off confirms, I just can’t envision the second half of that sentence being a reality as consistently without Nova. I mean, with a second assist, Nova lets Frank break 900k off an airthrow for 1 bar from any position on the screen, lol! (It also guarantees a corner press for an FFC reset if you want it.) Frank just has too many good ground bounce confirms to dismiss that IMO.
But I have to admit that I’m reallyyyy biased toward Frank with Cent Rush + a Lockdown assist (although I think something like Zansam’s log trap is cool too), so I could be putting that a little strongly lol 
Cheers.
And Shopping Cart (lockdown asisst) + Lockdown Assist is ideal and versatile? No of course it isn’t. You’re advocating Dante and Ammy as the lockdown assists of choice for Frank (which i completely agree with), but what does that leave you with? You either have to play Dante or Ammy on point, which is a decent idea in Dante’s case and a pretty suspect one in Ammy’s. Or you’re left with picking a point character to supplement Frank/Ammy or Frank/Dante, who is that point character? Taking Nova, since that’s the only argument i’m concerned with, Nova/Frank/Ammy and Nova/Frank/Dante are both lacking, Nova wants a beam or other strong, fast startup horizontal assist. Cold Star is not it, Jam Session is not it, Weasel Shot is a great assist, but not so much for Frank.
So, you’re left with a choice, unoptimised Nova, or unoptimised Frank.
Yes it’s the worst good lockdown assist (by which i assume you mean 3rd best :p) What does Tenderizer do in the Neutral Game? More than Centurion Rush does. Most of this paragraph is referring to Tenderizer vs Cold Star & Session, which is not my point. I don’t dispute those assists are better. My entire argument is Nova/Frank vs Skrull/Frank. The latter gives you more options to create a well rounded team. You get 3rd best lockdown assist + Whatever you want vs Centurion Rush + One Magic assist that doesn’t exist to fill out both Nova & Frank.
Cent Rush as good on incoming? Don’t buy it. So far Zansam has given me one setup that loses to upback, which is not a good setup IMO. If you have more then by all means let me know. But i’m going to take a lot of convincing to believe that an assist that locks down long enough to let you get two high lows into another high/low/frametrap/throw on the exit is not better than Cent Rush. Even if they block it in the air, you have one left right, followed by an eternity to look at things like whether they’re pushblocking to adapt what your exit mixup is. I’m not overly concerned about how much damage the hit leads to, just getting the hit in the first place. Frank can quite happily X-Factor a character if need be and stack meter for the next.
Oh and the confirm Apology Man does off Tenederizer incoming where he used the bounce straight away? He doesn’t need that, you can do Tools L carry down to the ground, launch, air series, knockdown, Tools + Doom to save bounce, Launch, Air S, falling Tools H, Tools M x 2 for the damage and oh so precious FFC reset.
I’ve already adressed most of this above. Nova/Frank/Ammy is problematic as well, i know the problems well, it’s my team :). Putting a Frank Anchor to be your lockdown assist doubles up on lockdown on Nova and pretty much freezes you out of a lot of matchups.
Frank can definitely benefit from a Beam, many zoning teams when played competently can keep even fully levelled Frank out, let alone Lv.1, where as all it takes is one Beam assist knockdown or assist take out and there’s time for Frank to dash to a range and start his game. Not to mention Beams save groundbounce.
I don’t disagree with this, Nova is amazing for maximising Frank’s damage. But so is X-Factor. How many times have you played a match where you just pop X-Factor in the last combo to get the game over with even if you didn’t need it? Or just not used it at all? As i said earlier this is something that can remedy the damage loss by dropping Nova as are TACs, there’s not a lot that can remedy having weaker assists.
Like i keep saying, i really think a lot of people are thinking i’m saying Skrull/Frank is some perfect combination or that Skrull/Frank alone is better than Nova/Frank alone (which i can understand with some of my wording) or as good as Frank/Ammy or Frank/Dante alone (which…no way). I guess the right way of saying it is Skrull/Frank/X > Nova/Frank/X where X is an assist that compliments both characters.
Haha yeah so I was definitely wording my reply a little strongly, but what I really mean is that the “strong, fast startup horiztonal assist” that I’m imagining working really well for Nova or Skrull here involves using characters that can’t level Frank well (say Magneto or Doom, for example)…unless you want to use Iron Man, which is legit but maybe not common (and mayyybe not a great anchor choice). I’m kind of assuming that we’re limiting our anchor options to characters that get us chainsaws fast, and that really kind of screws up shopping cart + beam’s potential, at least within the scope of my thinking. I really should have made that explicit though, lol. What that means for me is that shopping cart is already giving Nova and Skrull the best horizontal assist they’re going to get while still maximizing leveling potential. So you go with a lockdown which gives you either 1) IO Nova mixups if you’re using cold star, which we know from Moons works well or 2) vertical control with Jam Session. You’re definitely right that’s not ideal (although I would argue that Jam Session is pretty damn good here…partly since I use it), but both assists offer something, and I’m not even considering characters like Doom that make you go around your ass to get to your elbow to hit level 4.
Yeah, again, I wasn’t clear enough I agree 100% that you have more assist options with Skrull/Frank if you’re just picking a great assist composition. Again, though, I’m ruling characters like Doom who can’t level Frank well out. I think, as you said, I was misreading your claim a little bit. We totally agree on the assist composition aspect. But if we assume (which I…assume…we have to) that we’re using characters that get Frank to level 4 or higher effectively, that makes Skrull/Frank a much more limited pairing than it might initially appear. Which is why I was saying that the shell’s being conducive to lock down + beam actually demonstrated a weakness; I don’t see beam anchors leveling Frank well (again, besides Iron Man).
I definitely might be missing an option there, but I’m not seeing it right now.
EDIT: Didn’t wanna write too much because I don’t think we actually disagree as much as I made out, but with respect to Cent Rush as an incoming assist, I’m usually using that in the corner, and in the corner grounded Frank eats up-back with FFC; so if they pushblock they get FFC’d; if they don’t pushblock (or pushblock too late for you to FFC) and stay grounded you get a high/low; if they don’t pushblock and up-back you get an FFC unless they have an invincible air super, and I’ll admit, I don’t necessarily have the balls to go for a meaty j.S on an incoming Sentinel when I can do a nice safe grounded assist+roll and trap them in the corner if they don’t Hard Drive. I mean it’s not like it’s impossible to get out of, but it’s pretty strong. Tenderizer’s strong too, but it’s not impossible to get out of either. In fact up-backing breaks a Tenderizer mixup more effectively, because if you block the j.S and jump you’re jumping into Tenderizer and you can’t get FFC’d anymore. Again, that still leaves Frank in a great position, but I don’t see it being much better.
EDIT 2: Haha one more thing The Apologyman incoming that I was remembering was j.S + Skrull. Does he do j.MS or j.HS now? Because with those two, yes you can bring the opponent down with Tools L, but you’re going to have a harder time FFC’ing a pushblocker, so you weaken a once-strong option there. If you just j.S + Skrull, they’re going to bounce before Tenderizer is active and (I didn’t try this I’ll admit) the best I can think of is to Tools M s.S sj.MMHS (Doom saves the bounce) sj.MMHS Roundhouse H. That’s not a bad combo, but I doubt it kills many characters (again I didn’t try it). Probably that could be improved before the first launcher, but still, it doesn’t hold a candle to the options you get from Cent Rush M.
Just to end this arguement, I have talked to apologyman before. I run Nova/Frank, he runs Skrull/Frank.
He admitted, he think my team is overall better synergy wise, he made the skrull team day 1 and just stuck with it. So if you guys are still gonna argue, the best skrull/frank thinks Nova/Frank is better overall. Apologyman just plays his day 1 team and rely on his fundamental.
While that’s interesting, i still don’t value the opinion of one guy over real world factors, even if its someone as good as Apologyman.
But whatever, agree to disagree.