Group Photo Ops- The Frank West Team Building Thread

Nova/Frank/Ammy is pretty fly for incoming mixups, cold star’s nothing to laugh at, and Nova can better abuse Frank’s assist to get the hit, and usually whatever neutral assist you’d have on back (unless it’s bolts/missiles/drones, skrull kills with those).

Tenderizer is probly one of the best incomings Frank gets other than Jam Session, but it doesn’t do anything for Frank outside of that incoming situation.

In reality, Nova’s stronger for Frank in bad scenarios, but Skrull, once he does get the hit, gets unbelievable momentum. It’s personal choice, how you play the game.

Let’s start with Nova/Skrull. Admittedly, part of this is going to be my personal opinion, which you’re welcome to agree or disagree with. Part of it is fact though.

I consider Nova to be a more well-rounded character. He can handle more situations and has more tools. Not to mention he loves shopping cart. More importantly, Skrull is a risk/reward character; with a 26 frame startup, 1 active frame command throw, you have to make a good read to hit people with it. Meteor smashing usually relies on a good read as well (especially since you’ll struggle to make a stable Frank team that can still afford an assist to make skrull safe). You’re already taking an inherient risk by playing Frank; compounding it with Skrull is ill-advised. I find Nova to be more safe/stable.

As for factual things, there’s several. Centurion M is a fantastic assist; you can use it for incoming (setup hard to blockables and/or left rights with an overhead) comparably to Skrull assist. More importantly, it’s a great extender that allows how to tack on Tools M and the like at the end of pretty much any combo since it always ground bounces. You can even use it to obtain another ground bounce in some situations. (I have a rather fun combo that does that, but unfortunately I rarely get to use it :()

The synergy is another noteworthy aspect. Gravimetric blaster works better for shopping cart THC outside of the corner. Nova can do TAC infinites which can be an option both with Frank on point (or, if you can have a bit of starting meter you can even do after leveling Frank with the right team, but it’s tricky). More importantly, the juice of a pairing like Nova/Frank or Skrull/Frank is that you can get follow up damage after the Nova Force/Inferno DHC with chainsaws. Hitstun decay is based on both air/ground hits but also the speed of a combo. Nova Force/Inferno are a lot of fast hits, so it allows for follow ups. Problem is, this needs to be done quickly. Skrull’s only option to meet the time demands to get much more than Frank OTG S Air HS is to do 1 ground series and 1 air series. That’s not a lot of meter; half a bar at best. Nova can do a ground series, an air series, flight, another air series + special, and still give Frank enough time to do a full air series post launcher + whatever you can do with fixed states/bounces at max decay. I do this pretty regularly with Nova since he’s building a good 2/3rds of a bar at that point; I wouldn’t be doing it with Skrull. Frank needs to be adding damage if you’re going to kill on a touch with this kind of team, and Nova makes that more available than Skrull in terms of meter. That said, if you have the 2 bars oh boy does Tenderizer make for a good combo. Snapshot + tenderizer, Standing MHS 1 air series Tools H OTG Tools M x2 is a crapton of damage and meter gain. Problem is you need a lot more initial meter to make that happen. Seems small, but it makes a difference.

As for Vergil/Frank, it’s a combination of two things mostly. One, I don’t see the need for Frank on a Vergil team; they serve very similar roles and playstyles so I don’t feel Frank contributes to it especially since he doesn’t come busted out of the box. Two, since they serve similar purposes it also means similar strengths and weaknesses. Reminds me of playing WoW 2v2 against a 2 Rogue team; they either wrecked or got wrecked, no in between. Again, Frank’s inheriently unstable; your goal in playing a Frank team is to minimize that as much as possible. Beyond that, I don’t think Rapid slash is a great assist for Frank as a whole which puts more pressure on the anchor (and already challenging aspect for Frank teams) and Swords DHC usually only matters for safety for Frank, not damage. Shopping cart’s good for Vergil though admittedly.

I can deposit my thoughts on this matter…

Regarding my thoughts on Skrull vs Nova, Skrull does get those really easy resets using Frank’s assist, and I think Skrull uses Frank’s assist fairly well. Nova also uses Shopping Cart really well, and both do basic combos into dumb supers into Level 5 Frank. However, when you have Frank on point, there are quite a few factors to consider. Skrull does, by far, have better assists for Frank. Tenderizer is good incoming, Stone Smite gets you the double snap, and Orbital Grudge… looks cool.
In comparison, you get unblockables with Nova’s assist. He only has that one assist. We don’t talk about his other ASSists. Personally, I’m more of an unblockable type of guy, but some might prefer the shenanigans you can do with Tenderizer. The only real problem I have with Tenderizer is that, in case things are going terribly wrong, I personally find it inconsistent for getting Frank to Level 4 if for whatever reason he’s on point. With Centurion Rush, it’s also inconsistent because you have to do quite the variation on your level 1 Frank bnb to get to Level 4 in your combo, but it is more consistent because of that Forced Ground Bounce. I haven’t labbed it, but I can imagine a bnb off of cr.H that will net you 51 PP using Nova’s assist, and that doesn’t risk the opponent falling out of the assist.
Of course, this point is invalid if you’re using Stone Smite for Skrull, but I think most players favour Tenderizer.

Anyway, I digress too much. Messing with Skrull, I have noticed that making him go meter positive is a lot less easier than with Nova, so there is that. And… well, this is completely my, probably biased opinion, but I just really don’t like Skrull. I feel like he is a weak character, and he does not really stand out except for “Hey this guy actually won with Skrull”. I feel like Nova is a better character in almost every way, and if Nova had a command throw he would be better in every single way. An 8-way airdash, projectiles, a floating hitbox in the form of GRAVIMETRIC SHIELD, and flight. The odds of actually getting a hit with Nova are much higher than getting a hit with Skrull, at least against a good player.

I personally play Spencer/Frank/Dormammu, and I’ve tried a couple different point characters but have chosen Spencer for mainly one reason: It is a lot easier, and a lot more likely, that you’ll get a hit with Spencer than with many of the other characters you can play with Frank. Spencer’s just really good, has a standing overhead, a not too shabby cr.L, good anti-airs, command grabs that can hit standing or jumping foes, a 1 bar punish that is amazingly fast AND can DHC into Level 4 Frank combos with the right assists, raw tag combos for Frank, and amazingly easy conversions off of almost any hit. So in my eyes, it is better to play the character who has the easier time getting in and getting that hit.

Now, my thoughts on Vergil/Frank… It’s an amazing combination, combo wise, because any clean hit gets to Level 5 and sometimes a dead character, but you need a good air assist, imo, to play the team well. Shopping Cart is great for Vergil, but I feel like it lacks something to hit the likes of Zero and Firebrand out of their air assaults. Also, as Zansam said, Vergil and super Frank play very similarly, so it’s something of a moot point to have them both on the same team. I tried the combination before but dropped it because I felt it was just lacking.

Final thoughts: I will always and forever condone Frank/Dormammu. Snapshot + Dark Hole zoning is a thing, and when you kill a character with Super Frank + Stalking Flare, Flame Carpet and raw tag in, you have your choice of anti-air super or unblockables with air chainsaws + Flame Carpet, or even roll behind Flame Carpet. If they choose to get hit with the Flare, lolairS into full combos. Chaotic Flame also does a ridiculous amount of damage on top of Frank’s usually 900,000~1,000,000 combos (dunno exact numbers off the top of my head), meaning every hit is gonna kill, no matter the confirm, unless your opponent is playing a heavy, who all have trouble against chainsaws anyway. Dark Hole can be a weak neutral assist for your point character, but I just find it the best for incoming set-ups, especially with a character like Spencer who has a standing anti-air command grab.

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Zansam, care to share your Cent M incoming setups? Because i don’t have any really juicy stuff besides Jump H + Nova S, cr.H for unblockable, but its a free pushblock escape. I feel like Frank needs an assist that hits frame one incoming to get the really juicy stuff or else pushblock just blows him up.

I’m surprised to see you say that you don’t find an opportunity for the ground bounce restore, i use it after every aerial confirm, whatever confirm into S, call Nova, st.MH relaunch, get your bounce back.

I do take most of your points, but i feel like most of it is stuff that can be addressed with that third assist slot, if you take Plasma Beam for example, you get a groundbounce saving assist, so you can get the double Tools M for damage and FFC nonsense at the end of combos solo anyway, you get a coverage/durability/anti-flood assist to help Frank get in through zoning, which can still be a problem, you get a left/right ground mixup assist you can use in conjunction with roll. Does plasma make smash safe? I feel like it probably does.

If you’ve got some sick incoming with Cent Rush then i’ll probably agree with you and happily steal them all, but if not, i still feel like Skrull is the stronger option.

It’s less juicy because you’re not using the second part of the mixup; if they pushguard early you put the servbot on their head and kill them (especially since you get your nova assist back for the FFC). If they’ve seen that and delay it then Nova will hit them before they recover but that puts you in a fine state; they’re in guard from Nova and you’re free to act. You can also do the herp-a-derp of barrel rolling, which I get far more mileage out of than i should. Apparently cross up overhead screws with people’s heads too easily.

As for regaining your ground bounce via a air MMS/MHS then calling Nova, that isn’t really necessary if you’re doing MH Tools L loops off the ground bounce. Should get more damage that way and it’ll help with your corner push. Get to call Nova at the end and tack on the Tools M x2 that way. The combo I regain it for is when I still have both my bounces on a nova force followup, but that unfortunately only happens when I’m using Spitfire instead of Log trap (which seldom happens :frowning: ).

As for using the anchor to compensate for Skrull/Frank deficits, There’s always going to be tradeoffs. Doom plugs some of the holes but opens others; he has no way to really level Frank from behind him and beyond butter gun + shopping cart he won’t get much out of being in front of Frank after you spend 2 bars to DHC him in. And if either of those characters get stuck as anchor you’re in trouble. Scaling is noteworthy too; Frank can live with hit confirming with an 8 hit beam but it’ll hurt his damage all the same. Skrull especially so since a lot of his good combos focus on single hit H/S/Special optimization.

As I’ve said before, you are -always- going to run into problems in the anchor slot for a Frank team. A team will be overall stronger though if it doesn’t need the anchor to compensate for the point character’s weaknesses though since the anchor already have their hands full with Frank.

Wait, if they pushblock the H, you can’t get free FFC can you? That’s the problem i have with it. Or is there a timing for them to hit the ground in sync with the unblockable using just S? Because that would make more sense, and certainly be sick if you got FFC off it.

Regarding the Tools L loops off the bounce, are you sure you can’t get more damage still doing that throwing Nova in there somewhere to get the bounce back? What’s your combo at the moment? I want to mess with this.

heya guys,
im in need of some help to find a good anker for my frank team. Im at the moment running Skrull(Tenderizer)/Frank (Cart)/ ?.
I have been recommended to use Dante or Doom as anker but none of those characters really fits me (Dante is a bit too execution heavy, doom is just boring)
So who would you suggest for the team?

You do S + Call Nova on incoming. If they pushblock early, servbot. If they pushblock late, Nova hits, if they don’t at all, you slide while Nova hits. Delayed pushblock and jumping as soon as you land are the most successful ways to get out of it. Air mobility can also early pushblock and potentially get out of it. That said, most people are usually going to take a while to find any of those solutions.

As for damage, I’d have to parse the numbers. But offhand given the hitstun decay I’d imagine you’d only get one air series in either scenario, so the loops on the ground are going to give you more than the MH+ Nova. Could be missing ways to maximize though. And even then, admittedly Tools L loops post groundbounce are height/weight dependent if you start with Tools L instead of MH Tools L (the former doing more damage).

I just want to say, as someone who loves Skrull and despises Nova, if you just care about winning there’s no comparison. Skrull is at best a high mid tier character. Nova is probably one of the cheapest/best/easiest to win with characters in the game. Using Skrull with frank is like gambling double time. Using Nova with Frank is like gambling in Vegas at a casino that you own. Plus I personally think that if you choose to run Skrull/Frank you have to run Sentinel anchor because Skrull practically needs that assist to function on point. He can actually be a terror with it against people who aren’t familiar with the matchup. I don’t know how Apologyman runs Doom plasma beam in the back.

So is Nova. Just because shitty Novas can body other shitty players doesn’t mean he’s a better character than he is. You mention Apologyman, Apologyman runs Skrull on point against some of the best players in the world on a regular basis and is still competitive against them, that should tell you all you need to know about Skrull being a viable point character, you don’t have to play like a nut with him.

And my issue has never been between who is the better character between Nova and Skrull, i would agree that Nova is slightly better. My point is that i feel Skrull provides a much better shell for Frank once he’s levelled.

Skrull isn’t a bad character, he’s a risky character. He requires good reads and a high presence of mind to play effectively; trusting your reads in Marvel often begets risk, and high presence of mind isn’t exactly the game’s primary mode. Overall team risk gets compounded with Frank in there, and putting Drones behind it would make it exponentially worse because you have no level up back up plan in that instance.

Why do people keep saying that you have no level up option with Sentinel in the back? There are plenty of options there.

If people want to try using drones for double snaps or having the right spacing to THC with hyper sentinel force for snaps, they’re welcome to. I still maintain it’s a bad idea.

Hey I wanted to ask you about this too. I agree that Tools L loops are always going to get more damage than the MMS/MHS reset, but I wanted to point out that resetting your ground bounce during the Tools L loops might actually be what gets the most damage–and brings with it several benefits that you can’t find calling Nova at the end.

–I’m not 100% sure what combos you would be doing yourself, so if I’m misrepresenting, correct me. I’m giving numbers based on two confirms: 1) Knee Drop to Tools H 2) j.MS. I find Knee Drop Tools H into a s.H Tools L loop a little tricker than j.MS s.H Tools L loop, so I’m doing a comparison with s.H and without (just works for corner combos IIRC) for the Knee Drop combos. Also, I’m not using an L zombie before the Tools M’s in the reset combos. It works, but I’m not consistent enough with it yet to do all of these combos fast enough to get the info :stuck_out_tongue:
–I spent yesterday optimizing my ground bounce combos, so that’s where all this is coming from. I figured I’d share it for you Nova players in case it helps anyone.
–Finally, if you have another assist on screen when you confirm and can’t call Nova immediately, you have to do it with the s.H before the 2nd Tools L. It works just as well.
–Combos like these are why I believe Nova is absolutely critical for Frank combos.

The damage numbers are (no bar/1 bar)

Knee Drops:
Without the reset & with s.H: Knee Drop qcf.H s.H Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Nova) Roundhouse H Tools M Tools M (773k/950k)
Without the reset no s.H: Knee Drop qcf.H Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Nova) Roundhouse H Tools M Tools M (734k/910k)

With the reset & with s.H: Knee Drop qcf.H s.H+Nova Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS qcf.H Tools M Tools M (836k/1.012mil)
With the reset no s.H: Knee Drop qcf.H Tools L cr.Ms.H+Nova Tools L s.S sj.MMHS qcf.H Tools M Tools M (761k/937k)

j.MS Combos:
Without the reset: j.MS s.H Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Nova) Roundhouse H Tools M Tools M (693k/869k)
With the reset: j.MS s.H+Nova Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS qcf.H Tools M Tools M (769k/945k)

I kind of glossed above that one of the advantages of resetting during the Tools L loop is that you can finish with L Zombie 2x Tools M. That would increase the above numbers significantly. But another advantage is that, if you have a second assist that lets you OTG s.S sj.S after the loop/air series, you can use it. Hit stun’s too high to do anything but sj.S for a second air series here, so you can’t call nova and do roundhouse. You have to have a ground bounce to do the falling j.qcf H.

So I use Dante Jam Session, and here’s what you add for those 2 confirms.

Knee Drop Confirm: Knee Drop qcf.H s.H+Nova Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Dante) j.qcf.H s.S sj.S (falling) j.qcf.H Tools M Tools M (931k/1.108mil)

j.MS Confirm: j.MS s.H+Nova Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Dante) j.qcf.H s.S sj.S (falling) j.qcf.HTools M Tools M (845k/1.012mil)

Another advantage is that, if you aren’t in the corner, resetting your ground bounce can get you a better ender. So, as far as I can tell, far away from the corner (not reaching it) without the reset you might be doing this: j.MS s.H Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS (Call Nova) Roundhouse H (Dash) Roundhouse M (Dash) Roundhouse H (618k/795k)

With the reset you’re doing this: j.MS s.H+Nova Tools L cr.Ms.H Tools L s.S sj.MMHS qcf.H Tools M (Roll) Roundhouse H (712k/889k)

Additionally, with something like Jam Session, that combo almost corner presses via the extra relaunch, meaning you can do the 1 million damage version much more often.

For reference, though, if you have an assist like Dante’s and both assists are available, and the Tools L loop won’t corner press, a regular relaunch does more damage: j.MS s.HS sj.MMHS (Call Dante) j.qcf.H s.HS sj.MMHS (Call Nova) Tools M Tools M (757k/933k)

Anyone have thoughts? I’ve been looking at this forum so long I wanted to contribute something :stuck_out_tongue:

I did some testing on the matter after my initial statement as well. Resetting the bounce with Nova during Tools L loop does indeed do a bit more damage as you pointed out. The problem however is the spacing; Nova making contact with Centurion M pushes the opponent a bit even during Tools L, and for non-corner tools L loops that can be problematic since the loops are already a bit spacing dependent. Optimal combos are always a tradeoff of maximizing while still factoring in practicality after all; 1 mil damage is great on paper but bad if the combo gets dropped.

The possibilities with other assists is definitely there though. In my instance Log trap does little to extend to squeeze out more damage, but I can definitely see it with Jam session. Fortunately chainsaws + nova + always having a 200k minimum damage DHC in the back usually makes it so damage isn’t an issue in my case.

Yeah I agree that there’s no set-in-stone ways to do that, but I’ve been thinking about the rules involved and trying to work out a system to alter the combos on the fly. It’s a lot harder after some confirms where you can’t do a standing H before the Tools L’s. In the corner the difficulty’s always the same (at least I think) as it would be without the reset. Mid screen, it’s pretty easy after a j.MS if you do a s.H and then call Nova after the first Tools L (the push won’t matter so much). Point taken though, there are definitely situations where it can get you in trouble.

I’m actually about to post a crudely done video (no capture equipment lol) on the video thread because I’ve been messing with this a lot.

The spacing issue is pretty context-sensitive, as it’s a function of where you stand, the character size, whether your got pushed at all doing the combo, etc. Just have to keep doing it until you can eyeball it or err on the side of the caution. As for what combo to use when spacing is an issue that…also comes down to eyeballing in a different sense, lol. hitstun in this game follows specific rules but I can’t figure out for the life of me what they are beyond it being the duration of the combo at whether the hits are airborne and grounded. If you lab enough with frank combos eventually you should get to the point when trying new ideas where you have a sense of where you can/cannot squeeze anything more in. While his ability to utilize hard knockdowns, fixed hitstun moves and bounces is limited compared to say, the Dantes/Vergils/Stranges, etc of the world, he has enough versatility in that Frank should be able to get comparable damage on just about any hit confirm (assuming the scaling didn’t tank on the confirm).

Is there any way for Frank to level up on a Task/Frank/Akuma team? I nearly always get hits with point task and tatsu. Are tacs the only way to really level Frank on this team? Does Frank take advantage of tatsu assist for any type of extension/level up shenanigans? I figure it’s pretty good with his roll assuming I can level him up in the first place.

Thanks for those, though I have seen them. I don’t know, the first set up seems gimmicky since the timing is really strict and seems character-size dependent.

The second video is nice to know and all, but that assumes it’s Akuma DHCing into Frank and not the other way around which will most likely always be happening. I was more wondering if there are tricks with the tatsu assist, and for the first question if there are any reliable ways for Task to level up Frank. I’m not sure the synergy is there but just making my rounds through the cast to try to find a decent Task/X/Akuma character who not only extends and helps pressure for Task, but also takes advantage of tatsu and is a good DHC.