In an interview awhile back with Quesada at marvel they asked what character would he like to use from DC, and he said like he always does Batman, they asked him how would his take be different and he said that he’d make Bruce Wayne more of a fleshed out character.
So I agree with him and you that there is a lot of wasted potential for the Bruce Wayne part of Batman.
So much truth. The reason I don’t read any Superman comics is because of how bland they write him. He’s a potentially great character, but nobody’s even come close to taking him to some kinda interesting level.
Okay, nerd ramble alert. You have been warned.
Every time I read an interview by a writer who’s worked on a monthly Superman title, they always bitch about the same thing: we can’t write good fights for him, because he’s stronger than almost any villain in the DC rogue’s gallery.
My question to them is, who the fuck said the only stories you can write about Superman are battle stories?
Here’s a clue: you have a character who is one of the few survivors of a disaster that destroyed an entire planet. He is the last remaining ambassador of his people and culture alive in the universe. He arrived here as a child and chose to hide his gifts from the world to avoid persecution. Eventually, tired of standing idly by, he decides to do what he can to help humanity, using his special abilities.
I’ll just brainstorm some conflicts, which would be well-suited specifically for Superman:
Having infinite power means having infinite responsibility to use it right. And, as we all know, there are plenty of problems in the world that so very complex. If Superman were to use his power to beat all of the world’s problems into submission, he would end up subjugating the entire human race. Problem: how far can he go? Where is the line between being a hero and being a dictator? This gives rise to another problem: Superman is so civic minded that he’ll feel the urge to help solve those problems that his powers alone cannot fix. So how does he do it? There is so much room for exploration here, especially given our modern day problems–Iraq, for example, is the perfect analog for an entity with tons of physical power, but still no real means for a definitive solution.
In a way, the limited scope of Batman’s abilities also constrict his stories to a more limited scope–Batman is fine with duking it out in the streets of Gotham, but has he ever so much as taken a jab at the complex issues that plague the entire world? Nope… that is a job for Superman.
Here’s another. Superman, as many have noted, is the ultimate immigrant. He is not human, but from an advanced species that is essentially humanity on a far higher wrung of the evolutionary ladder. Ergo, he feels the same human needs as everyone else–the need for stability, for friends and family, for a comparatively normal life, and so forth. But the lifestyle of a superhero conflicts with all those desires, yet it’s a responsibility he can’t give up.
As an immigrant, his ultimate desire would be to strike a balance between assimilating with the human race, and sharing his special heritage with the world. He can do that after a fashion, by disguising himself as a human, but that’s just it–it’s a disguise. There is still a wall between him and humanity that can never fully be breached, yet he’s dedicated himself to protecting humanity. That’s a hell of a heavy thing, to spend your life protecting people who can never really know you.
And holy shit, his planet exploded. His parents are dead. Every single one of his people is dead. He can’t go back home, because there is nothing to go back to. Tell me you can’t do some cool shit with that.
None of these conflicts involve Superman fist-fighting with Darkseid, or grappling with Bizarro above the streets of Metropolis. All of them are far more fertile ground for exploration than just pitting him against the latest alien menace and having a big fuck-off super brawl. Yet I would say conflicts of this sort make up a pitifully small percentage of Superman stories, when they arguably would utilize the unique traits of the character far better than the same formulaic “Superman vs. Villain X” stories. Superman is so interesting, but how are people supposed to find out? They never will, not so long as he keeps getting shoehorned into a type of story that is inherently the least interesting for him, due to his character design.
It’s kind of like Superman himself, and his own dilemma of power. Ultimately, writers have a hard time with him because he presents them with a complex problem, to which they insist on applying simple solutions. They’re forcing a square peg into a round hole. Maybe Superman really just needs super-writers: guys who can take a look at the bigger picture, and realize that fist-fighting alone can’t solve all the problems in the world and that there are so many more, better, interesting Superman stories to tell. Enter Grant Morrison.
That’s sort of the point of Batman, though. Bruce Wayne isn’t a real person. Bruce Wayne is just a tool Batman uses to do his thing. How many times does Jeph Loeb need to hit you over the head with the fact that Bruce died the same night his parents were murdered? How many times do you have to read a killer crossover like Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive before you realize that Batman doesn’t give a shit about his civilian identity? You can chalk that up to crappy writing if you wanna, but it’s ALL SKILL, BABY.
In all seriousness, though, I still don’t think Bruce Wayne is particularly important. Most writers over the past several years have taken that to the extreme, but for the most part, Bruce is just another gadget from Batman’s utility belt.
One great story that features a lot of Bruce Wayne is Batman: Tenses by Joe Casey and Cully Hamner. (It was a two part Prestige Format miniseries.) It really shows Bruce in action as a person but also shows why Batman chooses to adopt that persona. And it’s just a rip-roaring yarn from Batman’s early days, before he had to deal with resurrected Robins and Crises and getting raped by Dr. Light.
Check out the JSA: The Liberty Files TPB. Also, Batman (and the rest of the world) was granted serious superhuman powers in the climax of the Mageddon arc in Morrison’s JLA.
Morrison also showed us that Batman has a “sci-fi closet.” That’s technically not a superpower, but Morrison was on LSD so it’s close enough.
And there was also that series of Elseworlds where Batman had vampire powers. (The entire trilogy is gonna be reprinted in one volume very soon.) It wasn’t particularly good, but the art was nice.
Yeah I agree on some levels that Bruce Wayne died the night his parents died. Not on every level because to me that seems like an excuse to justify his craziness/obsession in some ways.
I still feel they could flesh him out more, or the people around him like Batman TAS or again, Batman Begins did.
As a matter of fact he wasn’t Batman for an entire year, another perfect thing DC could of explored during 52 somehow in a seperate book, yet another dropped ball…
I think that’s a big reason I like Nightwing (Dixon years were the best even though I’m enjoying Wolfman’s run for the most part) more even though he’s had to suffer through Devin Grayson and Dan Didio… He’s kind of the same person inside and outside of the costume, there’s a change but it’s not a drastic one like Batman’s is. To me, he’s more human while Batman is just beyond everything in some ways, it’s hard to relate to him at all.
Recently I enjoyed Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson’s conversation in Nightwing. It was very fatherly / son like, it flowed very well to me. See, more moments like that and less “I’M RUNNING THE OUTSIDERS NOW NIGHTWING AND MAKING SURE EVERYONE HATES ME!” 
Point is I think there should be more of a balance between Bruce and Batman. Personally, if I could relate to him as a person a tad more, I would like the character more than I already do. I suppose that’s the best way for me to explain it…
Really funny though that Tomasi who will take over Nightwing in 2008 says that he will write Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson and brothers and Alfred like a father. Because of DC’s newer timelines Batman couldn’t be more than 10 years older than Dick Grayson when he found him lol! The dynamic may change drastically, that’s gonna be interesting. Damn their relationship is all kinds of messed up!
I never read it but a friend of mine recently described Brave and The Bold #1 by Waid and Perez to me when we had a similar Batman conversation. He told me how great it was to see Bruce Wayne and Hal Jordan hanging out in Las Vegas, that it was so cool because Bruce Wayne is never really explored and it was a fun story, Bruce had a personality even! But soon enough they put the costumes back on and it was back to work and he felt like wanting to see more of Hal Jordan and Bruce Wayne chilling lol!
I am going to start keeping a tally of every time you say, “It’s all skill, baby,” or make a reference to Grant Morrison using acid. As of this post, you are 1 and 1.
So basically, you’re saying you are sick of ASSHOLE BATMAN and like it when good writers write a Batman comic. I completely agree with that.
Other than that, though, I think I do prefer it when Batman is just portrayed as a force of nature. I dig it when Casey or Brubaker or Morrison or Dini give him some empathy, but I don’t think that too much more beyond that needs to be done. One thing that sets Batman apart from Marvel superheroes is that he doesn’t really have any foibles. He has a civilian life, but it’s not a very important part of his character. Although come to think of it, there have been some nice done-in-one issues that focused on Bruce Wayne.
One of them was actually written by Devin Grayson. Her issues of Gotham Knights that I’ve read were good Batman comics. There was this one issue that was basically A Day In The Life Of Bruce Wayne. Hold on, let me check which one.
Found it. Batman: Gotham Knights #32. Check that out from the bargain bin or someplace if you ever get the chance. That and Batman: Tenses should tide you over while this whole “The Outsiders are MY team of superpowered assholes!” ordeal blows over.
Are you gonna tally up my previous posts as well, or was I starting from scratch? By the way, my other new catchphrase is, “TRADE, BABY.” That’s what I’m gonna try to remember to say whenever I exhort people to give up on monthlies and just wait for the TRADE, BABY. Or I’ll say it when, like, the Sixers trade Steven Hunter to the Nuggets for Reggie Evans… Because that’s also what we call a TRADE, BABY.
But yeah, I am hopefully going to set the Internet on fire with all my crazy talk. You know, like a dramatic hamster or something.
Our Worlds at War isn’t a great comic.
It’s a Superman spotlight fest. Seriously, I hate the idea that Superman grows stronger every story I read.
Apparently he could also break realities with a single punch.
I am starting from scratch. It would take a team of experts to trawl all your previous posts.
By the way, that counts as three uses of TRADE, BABY.
All the discussions in this forum are based only on like six different lines we just keep throwing out.
Superman stopped being interesting when he stopped being a MAN. He’s too far beyond what he should have been. Should just change his name to Super.
its funny how the clark character has evolved over the years but the superman character hasnt changed one fucking bit since his creation
as well as batman has changed but bruce hasnt.
Clark hasn’t necessarily evolved. He’s been interpreted a few different ways, but it always comes back to the original version of the character eventually.
Superman, on the other hand, has substantially evolved since his inception. I mean, a shitload. He has arguably evolved more than Batman or Spider-Man.
matt wagner focuses a lot on bruce wayne when he writes batman
m’just saying…
Actually, it’s the other way around. That’s why I said that. Clark has always been farmboy turned reporter who wants to get the girl. Superman started out as being a really strong mortal. No flying, just high jumps. He was bulletproof, but that’s about as crazy as it got. He was still relatable as a man. As he got more and more overpowered, he lost that aspect. It’s like turning Captain America into the Silver Surfer over time. Super “man” is the only char I can think off of the top of my head that has “man” in his name and doesn’t identify with being a man.
wow did this thread ever go off course.
Superman’s relatability (or lack of) has nothing to do with his level of power. Do you think an alien who can stop bullets with his chest is anymore relatable to mankind than an alien who can stop nukes with his chest? Superman is meant to be relatable, not as a surrogate for the reader, but as a vehicle for escapist fantasy, and as a best friend/brotherly/fatherly figure.
One of the biggest fallacies of modern superhero comics is the idea that all characters should be treated like human beings with mundane problems. Fuck that. I don’t want to see Clark Kent visiting a psychiatrist. I want to see Superman diving into a blazing building and rescuing the people inside. I want to see the treasures and advanced technology he keeps in his arctic fortress. I want to see him tackling the various dangers that beset the world, in all his successes and failures. And I want to see the alien whose greatest struggle is (wait for it) relating with regular humans.
Watchmen is quite possibly the greatest comic in the history of the medium, but it really fucked up everybody’s concept of what a superhero is, can be, and should be. It left some deep scars.
In other news…Spider-Man is crazy, One More Day owns me.
In other news get Marvel characters out of this thread, this is the second time I’ve said that if you were paying attention. You know, there’s a big Marvel Sticky thread… :looney:
Thanks for Bat book recomendations, some stuff to look for at the next con…
I dunno about Superman and Batman evolving, their origins and events around them just get retconned every couple of years. Supe’s marriage and Batman having a kid are very huge deals though I think in terms of changing the characters despite both being heavily dependent on retcons… Batman having a kid moreso… course you can write Batman without Damian and you can’t write Superman without his marriage, (team stories, team ups and All Star books excluded of course) funny how that works.
The problem with Superman, is DC keeps trying to make him more human. So we could relate to him. He feigns weakness when he is Clark Kent. He feigns being a nerd when He is Clark Kent. He’s an alien that thinks that Human are that weak so he poses as one.
I would have accepted Superman if he gets treated as an alien… But DC keeps making him into the perfect human that everyone should abide to.
But it doesn’t work, which makes him fail in my eyes.