Was it Metsu Shoryuken originally before gouken reappered in SFIV? or Kinjite Shoryuken is what it should be called?
That means we should treat Ultra SGS and SGS differently?both of them instantly kills there enemy and both does instantly sends enemies souls to hell.
Thanks for the more in depth SGS explanation.
I’d imagine the two different SGS’s might represent different levels of ‘giving oneself’ to the SnH…there-by creating greater risk to the user. Perhaps the 15 hit one is the one Akuma is absolutely comfortable with performing and the 27 hit one is a more…risky one? One that he actually would only use in a more desperate situation?
Ryu’s Hadouken, Shoryuken, and Tastumakisenppu, are all derived from killing techniques… intend to kill as Gouki and Gouken learned them from Goutetsu.
Gouken’s potentially lethal move (high blunt force) Shin.SRK is more powerful than his intentionally lethal move (flesh rending) Kenjit SRK. Similarly, Ryu’s potentially lethal move (Taser) Deijin.Hadou is more powerful than his intentionally lethal (???) Metsu.Hadou… currently the two SRKs are Gouken’s only close fisted strikes.
Gouken didn’t teach the less lethal Ansatsuken style he uses in SF4 (or Ryu would too) though still not SnH rooted but KnH rooted unlike Goutetsu taught Gouken/Gouki. Gouken mastered Goutetsu’s art (w/ SnH) then began teaching it w/o SnH (but KnH) not truly purified yet, as he was still mastering his own art.
The Dejin is a taser hadouken, and paralytic shocks are still not good for ones health…
I was ready to be equally opposite to the notion of SGS being a pure state of SnH but it would nicely contrast a pure state of KnH
(my :lame: coin on Kikou no hadou)
I was against it initially because I firmly believed (conjecture but) Goutetsu was aware of the SGS before Gouki used it. If it is more an extension from a state of mind this could make since. :smokin: Goutetsu could have used SGS before ever training the super-shoto-bro.s and lost himself for a time to SnH. When he finally had regained himself, is when he decided to forbid (ie Kinjit) the use of the SGS to his students. I think Gouki and Gouken (so Ken and Ryu do) knew the risk involved (loosing there humanity) because Goutetsu did so at one time.
Aware of the principles behind it, Gouken never sought to master it. Instead he chose to surpass the SGS and purify his art from it’s SnH roots. Gouken embraced Kikouhou as a means to do this and was selected as successor in part because of it. Gouken knows the 3 “shoto moves” as taught by Goutetsu but only has one move of his own which surpasses his master’s art.
Aware of the principles behind it, Gouki sought to master its power. So in isolation he chose to embrace and fully master what Goutetsu could not; he returned to his art’s pure roots of SnH. Gouki returns knowing the 3 “shoto moves” as taught by Goutetsu but now has one move of his own which though apart of his master’s art, Goutetsu is unwilling to use. In mastering of the SGS and greater use of SnH, Gouki surpasses his master.
However if Mu is greater, then a SGS derived attack that only momentarily blocks pressure points (naruto series Neji 64 palm strikes) finished with a sure “stun” move (Ippo series Date heartbreak corkscrew) to momentarily stop the heart could be plausible too.
Kinjite means forbidden, as in Gouken forbid Ken and Ryu from using that one. It is the same one that Goutetsu taught Gouken and Gouki; Ryu also used it to scare Sagat… This would all add up to…
Goutetsu’s SRK= Gouken’s Kinjite SRK= Ryu’s Metsu SRK
As mentioned (indirectly, as I didn’t want to stray away from Mu vs Ten then) in the beginning of this thread, the SGS does not send the souls to hell, that was pure misinterpretation on the original translators of Gouki’s speech, leading to a conjecture which was wrong because they did not understand religious mythos. Imagine a Japanese who doesn’t know Christian mythos and sees Gill’s Ressurection move and reads the story plot, he would completely miss out on how Gill is parallel to Jesus …right? It’s the same case here.
Shun Goku Satsu
Like YagamiFire mentioned one possiblility is that as weird as it sounds, one hits harder. Of course, there are always stronger enemies, and there will be people out there who won’t die from the original SGS, so Gouki could have developed his own called Shin SGS (Like Shin Shoryuken!? hahaha), or he could have found flaws in the old one and just improved it. (Something more possible that has again to do with…Mu and Buddhism and the state of Mu)
Shin Shun Goku Satsu : A Series of 27 almost instantenous hits on the shin that overload the brains pathways on how it can be possible to feel *SO MUCH HURT *from your SHIN that you die from the sheer craziness of it all…HAHA WASTED 10 seconds of your life reading more crap! Joke Paragraph. Always wanted to do that about Shin Shoryuken too (Using your Shins instead of your Fist to Shoryuken someone).
Ok now I’m going to expand into Buddhist mythos and what Mu probably means in the SF world .
MU
What else is there in MU that is important when it specifically comes to avoiding the SGS?
(YagamiFire talked about it when he talked about Guy neutralising SGS)
In Zen Buddhism, one important aspect of attaining Mu is …yes drumroll
AWARENESS
It’s awareness of everything, how you breathe, awareness of the ground you walk on, awareness of how when you are hungry how you feel, aware of the guy who just walked into the room. etcetcetcetc and more etc
So if you look at how this is brought to SF, just like Bushinryu and just like anyone who is “Aware”, the SGS doesn’t seem to be able to go past their defenses.
And it is not an absolute, different people have different levels of awareness of course, depending on how they’ve trained themselves to be so, if you’re still distracted by anything else and lose partial awareness of your surroundings Maybe Like When Goutetsu was doing his MetsuHadoken just before Gouki Hit Him with SGS, then you’re not as good as the guy who can stay ‘focused’ on being ‘aware’ longer.Which brings us to…
Shin SGS MORE SPECULATION AHEAD
Who knows, Gouki himself knows about how various people can also attain higher levels of awareness such that they can block the orignial SGS, so what does he do? He Ups it!
27 hits in a shorter amount of time so that maybe even Gen couldn’t block it now.
END SPECULATION OF SSGS
And YagamiFire, Imma go ahead and say that the Shun Goku Satsu was a banned move previously, making it seem more like an actual move, and not the state of the person becoming the move, because of how it could lead you to becoming what you mentioned , the embodiment of murder, by going berserk.
Goutetsu and SnH
The actual dangers of SGS was unique to itself, maybe if you did a Metsu or a Kinjite often, you could snap out of that state, but the SGS’s danger was that it permanently made you go berserk, and that was why it was banned. If Goutetsu ever used the SGS, there could only be two results,
There’s nothing in between where he went berserk temporarily and stopped (Like Stupid Ryu seems to be doing so often now, the idiot ONO IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT).
So if Goutetsu knew about actual SGS, then he’s capable of controlling it like Gouki does.
Of course, we know that he doesn’t know SGS, because at his time it was already banned, he wasn’t the one who did the banning, and from how happy he was, I’m sure he got one of his Students to experience what he himself couldn’t (It’s like, wanting your son to become someone you didn’t get to be)
In the Next Post, I will go deeply into The Original Shoryuken, Hadoken and Tatsumakisenpuukyaku both from a martial artists and ki point of view, which I realised before was what made them lethal in the first place.
Hokuto Ry?ken ( Fist of the North star) and SNH
Like SNH users , the Hokuto Ry?ken users tap into a aura that can drive them insane with madness. The SNH also increases physical stats like Hokuto Shinken’s Tenry? Koky? H? technique.
Shoryuken, Hadoken, Tatsumakisenpuukyaku.
Intead of answering to anyone about whether I agree on this or disagree on that, I’ll just go into Shoryuken, Hadoken and Tatsumaki and how from a martial artists point of view these were originally supposed to be lethal. This is for the benefit of those not familiar with how martial artists (of which I am not one but something I have tried and also talked to people about) think about Ki.
This whole section is conjecture based, while trying to link it to SF’s exegarrated components and linking it to the real world where the creators draw their ideas from/
SHORYUKEN.
We will specifically talk about Kinjite shoryuken (and compare it to Shin Shoryuken) because that is the one that is supposed to be lethal (Storywise, not Gamewise, otherwise Gouken’s Back + LPLK -> Kinjite = Win).
One must realise that the moves Goutetsu taught are Killing moves, but not guaranteed killing moves, for reasons being
Now, Why is it lethal.
The Kinjite Shoryuken is lethal in that it looks like it busts up your exterior portion of the upper body all the way from your Dan Tian (Tanden) to your Chin. What it’s doing internally is that it’s busting up your organs and messing up your Ki as well. In Martial arts like this it’s not surprising that internal damage is much, MUCH more important than external damage, not just physical internal Damage, but your internal flow of Ki.
The way it’s shown always looks painful if you know whats really going on, Sagat was VERY LUCKY that he got it sideways along the chest from a young Ryu who probably didn’t know what he was doing.
At the End of the Kinjite Shoryuken, the Force and Ki (And I don’t know if Capcom used the Acupressure chart in this one, but thats where some charts show some of the points are , along the middle of the body) is supposed to destroy you as a human functionally. Thus it’s lethality. now compared to…
Shin Shoryuken, where you bust your opponents Ki where it’s supposed to be focused (Dan Tian), and then giving a Knock out punch when he can’t defend himself because of his weakened state (The first punch does that).
The first Punch isn’t just a Body Blow to the Gut to make you bend over, the first blow is right where you Dan tian is (yes yes thats what the Tandem engine is about). When we do our ki exercises thats where it’s collected. That’s the focus of your body, the centre and the balance. Now together with me
SHIN (Punch to the Tanden)
SHO (Punch to the Chin)
RYUKEN (Finish it with extra impact from your Body instead of fa jing)
.
Comparison results
We don’t know what ingame life bar represents. Loss of Ki or Loss of Physical endurance or consciousness.
But here we observe that Shin Shoryuken can knock you out, without damaging you very much. But the Original Shoryuken. Brutal. So a Shin Shoryuken is actually a good tool to knock someone out and end the match. No SnH involved. More like MYUnH (Make you Unconscious no Hado) Ha!
Yeah ok someone should write a Fanfic on that, Like, for Dan, or sumthin…
Those of you who understand these points would now find it obvious why Hugo stays Conscious after a Shin Shoryuken.
— On to
ORIGINAL HADOKEN
Pure Ki. That’s it, you get hit by pure ki that’s going to internally destroy your balance of Ki up to the point that you can’t regain balance in time if at all. Maybe you faint right there, maybe you throw up blood, but you can’t fight back anymore.
Presumably when you regulate the Original Hadoken with SnH you make it chaotic and damaging so that the feeling is not just a physical impact, but impact + wrenching pain + you feel weakened because your Ki is totally messed up and hopefully your organs get busted up too.
That’s also how Denjin is derived, in that it’s focus is not to damage but to unstabilise, thus the low damage.
Too bad that it’s said that it’s Canon that Ryu taps into SnH to do it, but it looks like he actually doesn’t have to tap into SnH to do it, doesn’t even make sense.
Compare to the Normal hadoken, it’s just a gathering of Ki that doesn’t aim to destabilise with chaotic Ki but just a pure force that does internal and external impact.
now on to the interesting part…
TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU.
I had NO BLOODY IDEA what the creators were thinking when they said this was a Killing Technique. But after looking back at all I could remember about TMSPK, I realised it’s just a HEAD HITTING MOVE. And like we all know, you smack the head bad, you go down. I think it was just originally supposed to smack someone in the head with enough Ki to destroy the brain organ while trying to do heavy damage to your head, but they messed it up when they gave Gouki the multi hitting one. At least it made sense that he would have developed it so it could hit you even if you were crouching close, but oh come on, Capcom , Make a Kinjite version of it at least, show us WHY it’s a Killing technique.
Gouki’s Interpretation of them all.
Ok, now you see why Gouki’s Shoryuken is multi hitting, it’s a slight version of the Kinjite. (Ken’s one doesn’t count, only his heavy hits 3 times)
And Gouken can do his Red 3 hit hadoken?
And …Oh…his Tatsumaki is just lame, except that it’s hits mid level at first hit, which is it’s saving grace. Ryu’s Tatsumaki does better damage on one hit. Sure It’s very good game wise for combo, i hope it’s just gamewise. You know we really haven’t seen what kind of Impressive feat Gouki can do with the Tatsumaki.
I’m thinking, this must all be explained somewhere else, like some people have that book “Mystery of the hadou”. Wish i had it, I wonder if they explain it in this fashion…
So Capcom making a SNH Dan would just be silly, cause Dan’s Ki Is so weak that SNH wouldn’t even matter. in fact Dan’s Ki is so weak that if he tried to do any of these lethal techniques he wouldn’t kill any of his opponets. Ok maybe weak opponents , but diffrently not some one like Sagat.
Hehe we don’t know that, Dan is currently underpowered because Gouken kicked him out. Who knows what would have happened if he continued training. Gouken kicked him out because he thought that Dan would be too dangerous when it came to training because all he wanted was revenge right? Maybe he thought Dan would fall to SnH too easily…
Gouken’s sealing of the SNH and Hokuto no ken.
in Hokuto no Ken Ryuken was about to seal Raoh’s Ki before Raoh Killed him but he suffer a storke. Infact Kenshiro actually seal somebody’s Ki in the anime. Hokuto No Ken. Ki in Hokuto NO Ken is use similar to how Ki in Street Fighter is used. Kenshiro moves do internal damage and damage the flow of Ki yeah sure the head or body explodes but that’s likely just a by product of the fallout.
Hadouken = Hokuto Gousho Ha
TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU = Nanto Rekkyaku K?bu
SNH = Tenry? Koky? H? and Hokuto Ry?ken
edit: the word Majin can be used to describe people who use magic. Hokuto Shinken’s Mus? Tensei technique requires the user to achieve a state of Mu. Only Kenshiro and Raoh have use this technique.
Ryu’s, Ken’s Akuma’s and Goukens Hurricane kicks in SF4
Ryu’s TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU
number of hits 1
place hit: Head
Damage 120
Ken’s TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU
Number of hits 5
1st hit: gut
2nd hit: gut
3rd Hit : gut
4th hit: gut
5th hit gut.
Akuma’s TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU
number of hits 3
1st hit: chest ( heart or lungs)
2nd hit: head ( brain)
3rd hit: Gut ( kidneys)
Gouken’s Go Rasen
1st hit: head
second hit: gut
third hit: head
Fourth hit: gut
5th hit: Groin
If Capcom is pulling a simple surface Story on us, which I highly suspect they are, I’m going to be soooo disappointed in them (I already am actually). if they pull even more HnK parrallels on us (like SagatRyu seems to be implying,)I’m going to be even more PissMad that I will go learn Gadoken from YF and…Gadoken Ono.
Just a Rant.
I pretty sure HNK had a big impact on Street fighter ever since SFIIWW.
http://www.fightingstreet.com/folders/variousinfofolder/ripofffolder/ripoffpage5.html
edit: I think Gouki’s words might be misinterpreted . I think when Gouki said to Gouken you seal of his power, he wasn’t actually applying that Gouken sealed of the SNH he was actually applying that Gouken knock Ryu out. he was just speaking metaphorically which he seems to do a lot. even the sentence ICHI SHUN SEN GEKI he says in during his ultra is also just a metaphor Gouki isn’t actually applying that his opponent is going to expreince 1000 Hits in a instant.
Tetsuo Hara the person who draw Houkto no ken has a knowledge of pressure points. Buronson the writer of Houkto no Ken was influenced by Mad Max, Bruce Lee movies and Sergio Leone. Bruce Lee’s philosophy was influenced by Taoism , Jiddu Krishnamurti and Buddhism.
Well done, if everyone would only pay attention to the speeches more like you do, we’d prevent a lot of misinterpretations. I personally haven’t heard that SnH is sealed off by Gouken, it’s just taht so many people calim that it is so isn’t it? But it’s not wrong to interpret it as such too right?
Well if that’s the case, then all the better, because then Ryu would have to overcome SnH himself, which is the way things should turn out!
Akuma’s TATSUMAKISENPUUKYAKU
1st hit: a knee to the chest ( heart or lungs)
Collapses the lungs or ruptures the heart.
2nd hit: a kick to the head ( brain)
brain hemorrhaging
3rd hit: a kick to the gut ( liver, spleen or kidneys )
ruptures the liver, spleen or kidneys
edit: Almost forgot to mention Ranma 1/2. the manga came out in 1987 and the anime in 1989. Like the Street Fighter characters Ranma uses Ki and can jump very high.
If extreme focus (emptying mind and soul) can be used to block each strike of the SGS, could the same be done to execute the move? Could someone like Gouken perform the SGS without SnH?
You mean, does he have the bodily ability to? As in, technically, would he be able to move fast enough to do it? Or let’s say, could he emulate the movements but not using whatever power SnH provides?
Well the tricky part is, one can be aware and not be able to block it, but ok say Gouki is aware of the attacks coming and is able to block it. But we don’t know if he knows how to do the SnH.
In other words, does he have the skill to do a non SnH version (which by itself is contradictory but wait a while)?
Probably
Does he have the knowledge to, if it requires knowledge? We don’t know.
So, If he does something similar to SGS without SnH, then you’ll be talking about , another type of Ansatsuken. We don’t know what is the difference between Gen’s Zan Ei and the SGS other than the SGS utilising SnH, so if Gouken does something like SGS without SnH, maybe it won’t be fatal because it’s missing the power behind the SnH strikes. If he can use his own skills to produce the desctructive capabilities that were missing, well ok then, perhaps so.
Thing is, moves always comprise of a few things
Number 3 is what makes it hardest to emulate any move, I’ll give an example.
Let’s say, for example’s sake, that each hit of the SGS hits a specific point on the body, broadly, but not as accurately like the Zan Ei (Where),
because you use punches instead of Finger Tips (How),
and the thing about SGS may be that each Punch is done with (And you would transfer) the kind of Ki that you would regulate for a Metsu Hadoken(Chaotic) instead of regular Hadoken. (Type of Ki)
So Gouken could punch a guy fifteen times in all the spots really fast but using his own form of Ki, and the effect could be different because if the Ki it self wasn’t as destructive, then maybe that guy could recover more easily.
That is, if his mindset would allow him to do something like that in the first place.
Well, actually then, the simple answer is…No, if you want it to be the true SGS, because you may need the kind of power from SnH to do it. It’s the requirement for it to be a true SGS, ok no I’m just playing with the words here…
But say you want to just copy the move and it’s effects, using some other type of Ki and call it Shun Hell Decimation. And you look at Gouken do it, there’s 15 hits and that other guy just falls down dead anyway and it looks from the outside just like SGS, then maybe yes.
Of course, the Biggest assumption here is that the hits carry Ki that only SnH wielders can use.
Akuma’s Hadouken does less damage then Ryu’s Hadouken in SF4
Ryu’s Hadouken
70 points of damage
Ryu’s Shoryuken
160 points of damage
Ken’s Hadouken
60 points of damage
Ken’s Shoryuken
140 points of damage
Akuma’s Hadouken
60 points of damage
Sastuku Hadouken
150 points of damage
Zanku Hadouken
40 points of damage
Goshoryuken
190 points of damage
Gouken Hadouken
Uncharged
70 points of damage
Charged
120 points of damage
Dan’s Gadoken
70 points of damage
Koryuken
140 points of damage
Sakura’s Hadouken
uncharged
60 points of damage
mid charge
80 points of damage
Full charge
120 points of damage
Shouoken
155 points of damage
Sagat’s Tiger uppercut
170 points of damage
You might want to include their EX Version though just to show how they were balancing stuff out.
Ryu’s EX hadoken does 50.50 Damage and 50.50 Stun for a total of 100 each.
But Gouki’s one does 60.60 Damage and 100.100 Stun for a total of 120 and 200 (Double the Stun!).
Also, Gouki’s normal hadoken recovers faster than Ryu’s hadoken.
In game numbers have no impact on canonical strength you know that right?
Absolutely, but I was just discussing this with SagatRyu because he seems very interested in it, that’s why i mentioned " how they were balancing stuff out.", because it’s for gameplay purposes only.
Hmm, thinking back, I seem to have also assumed difference strengths for moves, but then again, I also said it depends on the user so it’s no biggie about those.
:clown: