Gouki and Gouken : Mu vs Ten

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Gouki and Gouken : Character Development, Mu vs Ten

This piece has been a long time coming. Many years
I was initially worried that many people wouldnt like to read walls of text

But then I realized, if they were really curious, and were truly in search of the truth, walls of text would be no barrier to information.

Also, some people cannot get the concept that behind every seemingly simple trait a game character has, theres probably a whole chunk of history or culture waiting to make you realize that that trait alone is enough to give you a deep understanding of that said character. Unfortunately not everyone has the necessary knowledge to appreciate the traits, so misunderstanding / non-understanding occurs. This happens to anybody, native speaker or not to the game, because it is not only language dependant, but knowledge dependant.

Be warned, this text is necessarily long for a few reasons.

  1. Ive found out that it is because people wanted short precise translations but that is not usually enough (needs detailed interpretation).

  2. Because the simple little things you are used to have their own major significance in the characters development. Some of it has been, unfortunately lost in translation and interpretation by the unaccustomed mind, and were either simplified further (losing its significance) or totally misinterpreted (changing its significance, and causing further ripples of misinterpretations that affect even other characters in a major way), and then read by a similar minded person, gets misunderstood.

Examples of this are the symbols behind Gouki (Ten) and Goukens back (Mu) which can be casually looked upon as simple symbols by some, but are, in fact, totally representative of their character and how it relates to what they say and do.

And so here it is. Incomplete, but Revised and updated (Pre SF4 quotes)for the readers (wherever you find this piece.)

GOUKI

Theres still a lot of misunderstanding going around about Gouki. Most of all that he is evil and that he is out for the kill.

IS HE EVIL?

All we know now from canon sources is that since his tutelage from Goutetsu, that hes always been striving to move ahead and get stronger by whatever means he can get. The most important point in his young adult phase was that whereas Gouken chose not to Embrace Satsui no hado, Gouki did, because it was to him, a natural path to getting stronger. (Goukens wanting to have a non SnH version of the Shoryuken, Hadouken and Tatsumakisenpuukyaku to be passed on, is linked to the Mu representing him. To be discussed later.)

Losing to his master at first, he left to strengthen himself. He eventually came back after learning Shun Goku Satsu (from which we have no canon sources where he got, the move itself, will also be discussed later), and used it to defeat (kill) his master while catching him in a middle of a move (A version of the hadoken).

With that, he left. Only to return much later to defeat Gouken and grab his beads to use for himself.

He has his own code of honor and ignores various cultural concepts of good and evil when applied to himself. However aside from his understanding of the martial arts, he has also been canonically shown to be a very spiritual person, and is somewhat following Ashura no Michi (Path of the Ashura). His speech patterns show that hes at least basically versed in our equivalent of Buddhism and its mythos. (His character model is by itself based on Buddhist figures, from AAC.)

He has been shown to have in a few occasions, killed people (or tried to but failed).

Goutetsu
Gouken (Which seems to have failed, shown in SF4, because he has attained Mu)
An unknown fighter that was in a tournament Adon was in. (Of which I have not the canon texts)
Vega (Psycho[Fake?])
And
Gen Who blocked it all.

Yes, it seems that in the recent years there has been a misunderstanding by small communities that Gen got hit by the Shun Goku Satsu and survived it. In game, hes shown to have blocked it, Just like Gouki Blocked the reciprocal attack. In canon texts like All About Capcom (Which is unfortunately, not free from misinterpretation but also to be discussed later), it is also plainly stated, that Gen Guarded against it. The Japanese Guard is the English SF equivalent of Block By the way.

This is not open to interpretation, Gen Blocked it. There are some who would like it to be different to suit their own theories about the story, but Gen Blocked it. Clear and Simple as day. Those of you who always thought he got hit, go and watch the actual intro of their fight.

Also, some of you have seen Gill get hit by the Shun Goku Satsu, only to revive himself. Depending on whether you like to believe that everything that happens in game is canon or not, its either canon or not. Dont read too much into it.

The people that he has killed were either people who were prepared to fight to the death, or people he deemed unworthy to live.

Evil? To many cultures, yes, you take a life like that youre evil.

But he has saved a boys life before (SFZero3 Side Story).

Good? Yes to some people yes. Plus he did get rid of Vega. Hahaa.

And he hasnt ever been shown to kill an innocent.
So, hes Evil? Hes Good?

Excellent, From the various descriptions of him and his speeches ingame, by now some readers already know hes following the Path of the Shura (Ashura).

For those who dont know, an Ashura, the same one hes trying to attain the status of or just follow the path of, are gods/demi gods who are very violent and who are always fighting. They are Partly Good and Partly Evil (as the general descriptions go) just like humans.

His Symbol is Ten. Generally seen as a symbol to Link him to heaven. Granted to him (probably) by an Ashura if what has been mentioned to me before was correct (AASFZ3). I was told it was by an Onigami but he most probably meant Kishin.

Side Note : Those who know more about the mythos may think that Ten is a contradictory term to use as Ten represents the enemies of the Ashura , the Tenbu (Devas). Dont worry, you dont have to link it that far. Theres another simple meaning behind this that you can understand only after you take into consideration Goukens Symbol is Mu.

Ten links him to heaven, but as seen in the whole, it links him to the gods. With his current actions and Path, he will be stuck in the six paths and cannot go beyond that. In other words, he may be pursuing the path of the Shuras, but that is not the true path of enlightenment. The Human form is actually the most ideal to attain True Enlightenment, even a Deva or a Shura, beings immensely more powerful than humans, cannot gain true enlightenment the way humans can.

In very simple words, Gouki and his Ten symbol as a whole show him as a misguided character, in contrast to Gouken.

An Edit for 2014 , years after I wrote this : I have been reading up and understanding more on What Mu is, and what it really means in Buddhism. I now understand a (more accurate) but slightly different interpretation of this, though it’s still not off course, do read YagamiFire’s expanded explanation of SGS in the forums where I have tried to contribute to his explanations.

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HOW?

Gouken?s Symbol is ?Mu?. It is not the opposite of ?Ten?, but a next step above that. The ?Mu? symbol shows that he represents the true path to enlightenment. When you drop all desires and wants etc and purify yourself you are on the way to being enlightened. ?Mu? is important in Buddhism because it represents nothingness, and like just stated, you should attain the state of nothingness if you want to be enlightened.

Now Look at Gouki and Gouken together, Look at their symbols. Look how they have shown what they represent through their actions. Gouki in forging ahead with whatever is at hand, just trying to attain his goal of being the master of the fist and allowing himself to be intertwined with Satsui no hadou, while Gouken, trying to purify what he was taught into a cleaner form of martial arts.

Their actions and speeches reflect their symbols, which in turn reflect where they stand in the martial artists goal of attaining perfection, which in turn parallels a person?s spiritual struggle to achieve enlightenment.

Gouki?s path, using of SnH and the goals he wants all show him making use of the human desire and instinct. Gouken?s purification of the Hadouken Shoryuken and Tatsumaki show that he would rather rely on your basic inner strength rather than to let go and possibly lose your self control.

Doesn?t it all become clearer? Some of you who already saw the symbols and the two fighters earlier may have already caught on years ago. However I?m very sure the majority of people have yet to come to understand what it all means.

BUDDHISM?

Yes, Gouki is based on Buddhist figures. His speech points to his beliefs in it too. The one that points most clearly to this (And also the same speech stands to potentially be misunderstood and mistranslated and misinterpreted) is the speech about how souls with bad karma go through hell after they die. It?s a very straightforward speech about how he feels hat his fist is not the one that kills you, but that you die countless times in an instant (in hell) according to what bad things you did in life.

Ok here?s the actual speech

???
???

Instant Hell, that is, within many instances, you will get a glimpse of hell?.It is not my fist, it is the weight of your sins that will kill yourself?.To be among akki*, to die among suffering?.how pitiful.

*Akki here are the demons that are in naraka with you when you are reborn there.

To people who do not know Buddhist mythos, this could be a confusing speech. They?ll be going WTH DOES IT MEAN??? Is it a description of SGS? Your own sins will do damage to you? No?

All he is saying is: ?as I beat you, you?re getting closer to death and getting closer to seeing hell(naraka). When you?re in hell, your sins from your wrongdoing will determine how the demons will kill you over and over again to punish you. You will keep dying in suffering, only to be revived to have the torture repeated again, to kill you again. How pitiful.?

Buddhist hell has many levels, and depending on what type of sin you committed, you go to different levels to be killed again and again continuously via different methods of torture.

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH GOUKIS CHARACTER?

Killing! Yes, that speech shows exactly what happens when a person dies according to Buddhist beliefs. The kinds of sins you hold, the karma you accumulate determine what kind of deaths you face in hell. Physical dying is not a big deal because that?s just part of the cycle of death and rebirth. What matters is how you escape from this cycle and go beyond to achieve enlightenment.

So do you think Gouki feels remorse when he ends a person?s life? I personally do not think so (he doesn?t seem so too), because what is more important, is how did that person lead his life? If he was evil, he would die countless horrible deaths in Naraka. If he wasn?t so evil, he?d get less punishment. The physical death is unimportant.

This is all simplified textbook Buddhism.

WHAT GIVES HIM THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHEN HIS OPPONENT SHOULD DIE?

That?s the question then, that actually directly affects karma accumulation, time, although one can say that their death by Goukis hands is part of their karmic retribution. So, it doesn?t really matter.

DOES IT?

There exists another view, and it can be found in a person such as Gouken (I am only using him as an example, but you will soon see how he is a good example). Instead of killing someone, couldn?t you try to lead him back to the path so that he accumulates more positive karma and not more negative karma? Wouldn?t helping others to remove themselves through the cycle of death and rebirth be a greater goal? As a martial artist, he sought to remove the killing elements of his arts and pass it down to his students so they may use it to better their lives. When found that one of his disciples was going to use the art for revenge, he kicked him out of the Dojo (Dan).

And now in SF4, he is seen coaxing Ryu back toward the path that won?t lead him to using SnH. (Sealing it actually)

Meanwhile Gouki?s trying to get him to accept SnH so that he will up his fighting prowess. Selfish bugger isn?t he. Too bad too late.

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WHAT IS SATSUI NO HADOU?

From All About Capcom.

?It is a physical manifestation of increased powers from overcoming the limits of how far you would go to defeat your opponent. It is in the same vector as Vegas ?Psycho power?. Gouken chose the path of suppressing this, while Gouki chose to use it and advance through the path of the Shura. The Hadouken, Shoryuken and Tatsumakisenpuukyaku were moves that housed the Satsui no Hadou after all, so there is a possibility that Ryu, who uses these moves, could awaken the SnH within himself.?

Basically it?s a power that you tap into by removing your psychological barrier to kill another. Once you go too far into it, you may go berserk as the SnH overwhelms you. This is why they Initially banned the?

SHUN GOKU SATSU
Goukis trademark move. From AAC and from mook accounts, the SGS was a forbidden move because it posed a danger of causing the user to go berserk for the rest of his life. This is so because, the SGS is a move that you can use only if you allow yourself to be immersed in SnH, as it is a move that is designed to be fatal. Only by removing your barrier to kill will you actually even consider using this move. And while executing this move, if you were to get too embroiled in the SnH, you may very well lose yourself to SnH and never recover, such was the danger and the reason for it?s ban.

When Gouki successfully did the SGS on Goutetsu, it was shown that he could control himself and not go berserk, and it was also the true start of his path of the shura since he knew then he was strong enough to control it.

WHAT DOES SGS DO?
There have been no detailed canon descriptions of what SGS does. We only know that very highly skilled and focused characters can block it i.e. Gen blocked all the hits.

However in many non-canon sources, we see it as a move that does heavy damage on another character through a series of hits. Guy blocked it in the Non Canon comic. Goutetsu?s face was almost decimated in an anime when he got hit by it. etcetc

However canon wise we do know that Gouki does variations of it, from the normal 15 hit
version in game simply called SGS, to the 27 hit version revealed in SF4 called the Shin SGS. No, there is no mythical reasoning behind why it?s 15 or 27 hits. There are many many levels of hell, more than 15 or 27, and more hells within hells.

Off Topic ? Gouki is a darned liar, he always says ICHI SHUN SEN GEKI!!! (1000 Hits in an instant!) But hits only 27 times. I always ask my friends, WHERE ARE THE OTHER 973 hits???

THE ALL ABOUT CAPCOM DESCRIPTION OF SGS

At the end of the paragraph, the compiler of information states that Gouki says that the more evil you are, the more damage you get from SGS, ?as said by Gouki? (in his SF03 ending).

We must keep in mind that the task of accumulating information of AAC is immense, and they keep language mistakes in the book, as well as personal interpretations as they won?t have the time to research on everything right up to the minutest detail. They even take details from manga and put it in as canon, probably with permission, but who knows? Take it as you will, you may say that since it is written in a Sourcebook, it must be true by default. But we do know that the source the compiler drew data from was from the actual ending itself and not from the person behind the creation of the ending, so personal (mis)interpretation was very likely the cause of that sentence.

WHAT NOW?
Well now, hopefully you know more about Gouki and Gouken and the role they play in the big picture, a bit more of their backstory, and?as well as that what they represent is not about Good VS Evil, but about how different people have different ideas of perfection and enlightenment.

I will revise this as I find out more about the in story from the console version (when I get it).

Ok now go play SF4, I?ll be maining Dhalsim. See you at the arcades.

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Let me say that this is a great piece of writing here and you can -feel- the sense of love and appreciation for the depth of the characters and their stories oozing out of it. Well done, I say. Well done.

I also find that it aligns with -alot- of the stuff I believe regarding Gouki/Gouken/SGS/SnH/etc. When I was young I was very interested in other religions and read up quite a bit on them…so when I got the Alpha games for Saturn and later Playstation when I was growing up I quickly picked up on some of the references Akuma/Gouki throws around. Later when I really started delving into the canon I -really- started to see these references all around Gouki who is clearly a -very- Buddhist figure (not stating that he himself is buddhist but that he speaks in alot of buddhist terms).

I am a firm believer that the SGS is not magical…nor even really spiritual. I have -firmly- believed this for some time and have always been…well…wary of the whole “take you to hell” theory even though I accepted it as fact for a while. After doing alot more reading I’ve rejected that theory. First of all, its -way- out there for the SF universe…it basically confirms an afterlife which is…well it seems outside the realm of the SF ‘feel’…I can’t put it in any other terms. It just seems too outlandish. Additionally, this is a game series about -warriors-…not magicians that teleport opponents to other dimensions (thankfully) so why would the embodiment of an ultra powerful warrior use something that is not an attack? It makes no sense…especially when all his other huge attacks are -clearly- physical (sinking an island, spliting ayers rock, etc etc etc).

To me the SGS is just a physical attack that represents a near-supernatural (or outright supernatural ) heightening of physical ability to the point where the user strikes so rapidly as to be simultaneously…an attack so lethal there is no defense because the attacks occur simultaneously (or so closely as to be near-simultaneous). Of course it -has- been defended…but only by “emptying the spirit”…by Mu. Now since I don’t think Akuma is a boogie-man driving the hell-trolley over his opponents…“emptying the mind and spirit” to me means one thing…absolute focus. The only way to block innumerable simultaneous lethal attacks is…to -BLOCK- all the attacks simultaneously…another act of supernatural skill/speed/whatever.

How is this done? Focus beyond focus…emptying of the conciousness to the point where no time is spent in consideration of defense but ALL TIME is spent in the -act- of defense. If you -think- to react to the SGS you have already failed because you’ve already been hit a bunch of times. There is no thought…there is action. Block or die. Thats it. Gen is capable of it and now Gouken is shown to be capable of it (and I believe the new SF4 anime that shows Akuma attack Gouken is a -terrible- approximation of the exchange). They are masters at a level so high that they can think of nothing and merely react to the offense of the SGS.

The SGS is a moment of pure focus on the opponent…pure focus on destroying them…pure focus on killing. It is natural the antithesis/defense of this technique would be for the defender to totally divest themselves of intent (especially when considering the spiritual implications of the attack and defense). The user thinks neither of the opponent nor even truly of themself. Akuma is the wave and they are the shore…and the wave breaks against the shore, not vice versa but the shore does not seek to react to the wave…no the shore just -is- and in being so, the wave breaks against it. This is how I would describe SGS vs Mu.

Additionally I do think the remark about sins making the SGS worse for the victim to be true…from Akuma/Gouki’s point of view. From his POV the outcome of the SGS is the same for all…death…but it is worse for those who have sins on their soul because in dying they have been sent to hell/naraka/afterlife…and so their fate has been made worse by the weight of their own evil. After all, why would a technique made to utterly kill a foe vary based on that persons sins? As far as I know, evil doesn’t change someone’s physical body…so it should have no baring on the outcome of the SGS. After all…the SGS is considered an instant-kill…so…um…if you’re a bad person it instant-kills you worse? That doesn’t even make sense. To Akuma, he just believes that having entered a battle with him, you’re fate is death…and the SGS guarantees that…and as a side-effect of fighting him (and therefore facing the SGS) you are about to come face to face with the weight of your karma…so sinners have more to fear.

Again, great posts Rokiseph and I’d love to discuss this sort of stuff if you’re up to it at any point.

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Amoc, I hope you get great fun for your screenplay! If it gets made in anyway, please put it up so we all can see it!

YagamiFire, dude, I wanted to come in to write a piece about Gen today. But your post just went and hit it spot on. The part about, If it’s a killing move, why would it kill…harder…for evil people . Hahaha. I Lol’ed when reading what you said cos it’s so correct.

And yeah, I’ll say it anyway about Gen, regarding the “Brings to hell” Theory, if Gen emptied his Mind and Soul the demons would still attack him because theres no way you can erase your sins in this life by just concentrating so hard, your sins are your sins, don’t you think so? So if Gouki did SGS on him and it brought him to hell, Gen would be saying “hahaaa, I emptied my mind and Sou…” just before the Demons hacked him to pieces.
Ergo, SGS = Go Hell, no Go.

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Yeah the Gen thing never made sense to me because I’m pretty sure demons don’t much care about how a mortal -feels- about their own sins. “Oh I killed a bunch of people, but I’m over it…so back off demons” Yeah I don’t see that happening, especially not in ultra-explicit punishment Buddhist Naraka…they have some rather interesting and detailed hells and I don’t reckon a mortal’s opinion factors into them much.

Incidentally, concerning Gouken my friend and I actually noticed something interesting about him in SF4…when you play as him it doesn’t look like he ever makes a fist except for when using the Shoryuken. All his normals seem to be open-hand knife strikes or palm thrusts The only exception I can see is his Jab which is a quick back-hand attack with his fingers curled. I just felt it was an interesting observation regarding Gouken and his methodology…it seems even in-game he won’t bring his fists to bare on an opponent unless its in the use of his Shoryuken.

Also, I don’t know if anyone saw it but on page 432 of the Warriors Fate thread I put up a BP/SP (from Alpha 3) theory and was looking for feedback on it…but I think it got ignored amid the Gouken/Gouki/SF4 discussion. :confused:

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I really like Rokiseph’s explanations, particularly on the Shura/Deva thing about Gouki and the SGS not a gateway to hell part

I noticed and commented on T.Hawk :wonder: but I think it got ignored :sad:

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You wish. /mad

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Lol

Yeah Vega will nevar die!!!

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Tatsu - Yeah I had seen what you said in reference to T Hawk and I see what you mean…but I really feel like that quote is just really butchered by Altavista/Babelfish/whatever-it-was-put-through

Rokiseph - Do you figure SF4 is setting up Ryu to attain Mu? I only wonder this because by SF3 (time wise) it doesn’t seem as if Ryu has reached Akuma’s level yet…which is why he is being trained by Oro of course…but unless Oro -also- has achieved a mentality of nothingness then he won’t be able to teach Ryu a means by which to defend the SGS. Unless of course he already has…and thats why Akuma seems to be adding new sure killing techs to his arsenal in the SF3’s. Its sorta rambling on my part…just something I was thinking about

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Gouki & Gouken are like Vegeta(Gouki) & Kakkarot(Gouken)

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I’m writing this first sentence last, because, I just wanna tell you I realised I’m rambling on too…

Yeah SF3 Ryu couldn’t have reached Gouki level yet because Gouki does have a lot of extreme training and SnH…I think he won’t reach Gouki’s level of power so soon, but he will surpass Gouki in other areas. (Discussed way below)

And yeah I think that SF4 is setting Ryu up to become worthy of becoming Oro’s disciple. Not by attaining Mu because he still has a really long way to go, and it’s not the sealing by Gouken that does the trick, but by becoming a person who is resistant to shortcuts and is trying to go purely by exploring his Own human potential (Which you need time to do).

What kind of Oro are we looking at here?

Well it depends how Capcom is treating ???

If it’s the typical Taoist version, then yeah, you’d also have to be somewhat enlightened to learn it . They also have to do with ‘Mu’ but it’s kinda iffy because sometimes learning it makes you become a deity and, ahh it’s a whole new bunch of mythos to go into again, and I don’t know how capcom is treating Senjutsu.

However looking at Oro, it’s not surprising that he went into seclusion and trains himself completely to such a level until he can wield Magic (surprise surprise , I call it Magic because he is using Senjutsu) and be so old, those are the traits of the atypical Deity. yeah people learn Senjutsu to become Deities/Immortal.

You do need to rid yourself of a lot of earthly wants to attain that though, and If that’s what Oro has done, then he has done a good job. He’s going on a slightly different path from Gouken though, because to ask to be immortal (or learning Senjutsu) is just going the long way to be truly enlightened (If going by Buddhist Mythos, you get enlightened the easiest as a Human, not as a Deity.)

But he is still human, and Capcom probably mixed up the Mythos so that Oro can still be attaining enlightenment while attaining powers like he has.

This is if Capcom says they wanna get enlightened in the first place and if it’s the typical kind of Senjutsu…ifififif…a lot of guesses.

And can Oro withstand an SGS? I personally believe that if he sees it coming, Hell Yes.

Oro vs Gouki vs Gouken

LOL

Ok

Gouki:
is = a LOT OF KI.
Destroys Ships…Destroys COMETS
GOUKI SMASH!
AYERS ROCKS?? NO! AYERS PEBBLES… BOOM!!!
I want a NEW ISLAND! BANG!!! NO more Island.

He’s not a mindless animal of course, but that’s Generally what he’s capable of.

But he cannot do little stuff like Levitating that Oro can do (some people will be thinking how I would know that, I don’t, I haven’t seen it, but listen up a bit more.)

Oro is;
A lot of Focus and he’s a contemplating old geezer who can levitate stuff by using Senjutsu, which = Magic. It’s not pure Ki because if so then many many people would be able to do it, it’s what he attained from Senjutsu. To attain that, he must be someone who has looked even deeper than Bang Boom stuff like Gouki. You don’t learn stuff like that by just training and increasing your power, you learn stuff like that by contemplating and going beyond human to touching deity power status. Has he attained Mu? Let’s say we don’t know, but I can’t see him not attaining a good level of his goal toward attaining Mu with powers like that. Why?

Because to have Deity powers, you have to deserve to be a Deity, and to be one, you have to be beyond human wants, which is technically going toward attaining Mu. Youcan be trying to attain Mu without doing Oro stuff because you aren’t learning Senjutsu, which brings us to…

Gouken;

Who is trying to just be pure and be enlightened the normal way. Nope, there’s nothing special about Gouken! He’s not trying to attain something beyond human (as Humans in SF world generally are, powerful as they can be), unlike Oro (Senjutsu) and Gouki (Becoming the strongest through removing Human limits).

Sure he tried to purify Goutetsu’s Art and all, but… that’s all. And through this, just living his life and trying to bring those around him toward enlightenment, is his own way. Actually, if Gouken wanted to, he could be Oro’s Disciple as well…

Oro to Ryu

Gouki could destroy a Submarine with a move, but as a physcial object, it couldn’t defend itself from his attack. He’s not adding moves in his repertoire to defeat Ryu eventually, he’s just getting stronger and stronger as time goes by, and he needs moves to translate that into.

What can Oro teach Ryu? To prepare himself from such attacks maybe. Theres a lot of training to be done, SGS probably doesn’t work on a Tractor because it’s probably Human specific, but his TSKRJ would. But can Ryu defend from both the same way? No.

Sure you can have 'The Power of Nothing" and Defend against SGS. But if you stand there and wait for Gouki to slam down on you with his Misogi with your Power of Nothing, you will instead have The Power of Becoming Nothing.

There’s different ways of neutralising attacks and sometimes subtle ways to do so in martial arts, and all these require focus. Sometimes you just CAN’T block it, you have to neutralise it.

Focus, FOCUS. Not just Focus on becoming strong, Focus on EVERYTHING. Be aware of everything at all times, that is attaining Mu…My god that sounds so Zen.

Incidentally, that’s what Ryu needs, to know more than the average fighter, to explore more than just his human strengths because there is something beyond he can explore (Again, Stuff like Senjutsu). No one else that has appeared in the SF world can teach him that because they’re too accupied with their own lives and wants. Oro is the only one who can be a good teacher because everyone else is young and still learning (yeah even Gouken!). Oro is probably Still learning but he already has enough to teach Ryu. Old Geezer…

I don’t know where else I’m going with this! I know that Oro is very good for Ryu in so many aspects that I can’t list them all down. So many possibilities…
And I can’t continue because I feel like I’m not going to stop if I don’t stop now, theres just so much more to discuss about all of them. Like, why if Gouki can be so focused as well, he didn’t attain mu (how do we know he didn’t), and all…

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theoy On the SGS, SSGS, Zan’ei and Zetsuei

1 SGS

very brutal and violent strikes aim at 15 pressure points. strikes are so violent and burtal that the victim of the attack not only bleeds internally but also starts spray out blood as blood vessles brust. The shear burtally and violence of the attack is why you only see a black screen.

Gen defends against this by protecting the 15 pressure points on his body the strikes of the SGS aim at.

2 SSGS

Same as the SGS expect for 27 pressure points and a lot more interal bleeding and blood vesslses brusting.

3 Zani’ei

6 strikes aim at 6 pressure points victim of the attack bleeds internally.

7 Zetsuei

13 strikes aim at 13 pressure points victim of the attack bleeds internally.

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i’m not Roki but i have some thoughts on [media=youtube]Xu-D5pG2VT4"[/media]…

True SF3 Akuma seems stronger than SF3 Ryu… but he is closing the gap

[media=youtube]VXJqf5r78hk&feature=channel"]SF3 Ryu has Gouken’s SF4 Ultra (unlike SFA Ryu) in full effect (that shakes the water fall and the mountain its on) but his Deijin (uses SnH then purifies it to not kill) is an unblockable [Hadouken. SF3 Ryu is stronger than SF4 Gouken, SF2 Bison, SFA E.Ryu, and likely SFA Akuma.

story note1: SF4 Ryu and a SF4 E.Ryu would have the same strongest move (Metsu Hadou)

story note2: Deijin hadou> ShinSRK ([URL="http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/snes/a/sf2ryu.htm"]post-SF2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE"[/media))> Metsu hadou> Kenjit SRK> Shinkuu hadou (IMHO) at least for Ryu/E.Ryu

SF3 Akuma has a strike that splits an Island and one SGS… SF4 Akuma likely has only one SGS better than the SGS that [media=youtube]nm8iWIp-hfM&feature=related"]SF4 Gouken and [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2b7p7RYgR0”[/media] have defended against… SF4 Gouken is stronger than SF2 Akuma (IMHO)

story note3: SFA S.Akuma> SFA E.Ryu> SFA Bison> SFA Akuma> SFA Gen> SFA Ryu> SFA Ken (IMHO)

filler rant: for those who are Naruto Manga fans… Oro uses nature chakara like a Sage were Akuma uses Kyubii chakra and SF3 Ryu is Naruto pre-Sage training.

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Rokiseph - Interesting points about Oro. He really does seem to wield a more supernatural power than the others…heck, it actually seems closer to how Psycho Power has been portrayed (telekinesis, mental whatsis, etc) than any regular chi effects. As for Gouki not achieving Mu…I think his focus is his problem. He is focused inward…towards his own strength…towards his own perfection…Mu requires a divestiture of the self…and Gouki is incapable of that by his very nature.

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I shall attempt to reassemble my ramblings for easier reading.

And YagamiFire you summarised it very well:

"He is focused inward…towards his own strength…towards his own perfection…Mu requires a divestiture of the self…and Gouki is incapable of that by his very nature. "

Nice.

Whoa SagatRyu yeah I think SF3 Ryu could have surpassed SF4 Gouken, and he’s closing the gap between himself and Gouki.

It does seem that in terms of Raw Power Gouki is really going overboard, I don’t think Ryu can Split Ayers Rock in half in SF3, but hopefully in SF5 he can…Whatcha think? Oh, and I totally like to agree on that Pressure points thing, I’d say that Gen’s one is more accurate pressure point focused and Gouki’s one is more Blows onto pressure points.

As in, Finger Poke VS Blows. You know like those you see in martial Arts Movies, Gen’s one is the Ki Pokey Thingy with Fingers on accupressure Points, while Gouki just Bashes them on those points instead with heavily ki infused blows. Same result though. World of Pain.

Off Topic, Damn it, i hate how Gen can Combo his Zanei to his Zetsuei, but Gouki can’t Combo his SGS to his Shin SGS, He’s already grabbing on to him for goodness sake, just, hit him for another 27 times! Isn’t Overkill always a pleasure?

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I actually think the large difference in destructive power between Ryu and Gouki doesn’t represent a bridge in capability so much as it illustrates their different focuses. Gouki is all about doing harm, doing damage…winning. Ryu is about overcoming his own limitations…Ryu doesn’t need to demolish Ayers Rock or what-have-you to strive towards his goal because its a metaphysical one…a higher goal. Gouki on the other hand -has- to display this sort of power if only to himself…to prove that he’s getting stronger since that is his goal.

So even in SF5 I don’t think its necessary for Ryu to display power on the scale of Gouki’s destructive force and I actually think it might be important that he doesn’t…Gouki is a force of destruction and Ryu has much higher purposes to his training than just breaking crap (which is basically the crux of Gouki’s flaws…he can’t see the forest for the trees, as it were, believing destruction is a means to an end…he is not a true martial artist, in that sense at least as far as the SF world terms them).

And yes I’d agree with Gen and the whole fighting style assessment. Gen is very much the ‘death touch’ style character with poking and gouging, pressure points and internal damage and all that. Gouki is bone-breaking force and about as subtle as a tomahawk missile when it comes to his attacks. I think they’re a good illustrations of similar characters with major differences as well…Gen is able to achieve nothingness because he doesn’t care about himself anymore. He has moved on from himself because he knows his time is limited so he has moved on to the new purpose of finding his death match. Yes, its morbid…but its also a warrior’s goal in that it is an appropriate goal considering the life Gen has lead.

On the surface Gen and Gouki seem similar in goal…both of them striving to find a strong opponent, but they do it for two different reasons and that is where I see why Gen is capable of ‘nothingness’ and Gouki is not. Gouki seeks a stronger opponent for his own validation…to gain more strength and to test his own limits. Gen is familiar with his limits and just seeks out a foe so that he can move on to the next stage of his life in the afterlife…he isn’t proving anything to himself or anyone else…he is not wrapped up in himself.

I think it is important in SF5 for Ryu to -lose- the Shin Shoryuken…the move is considered forbidden by Gouken for a reason…its more than capable of killing. I think Denjin Hadoken is a better step for Ryu in working towards becoming a pure martial artist…one that doesn’t kill to win, though I don’t think its the end all be all. Ryu needs to move beyond his Ansatsuken roots and create for himself (perhaps with Oro’s help) an entirely new technique…one based on his own ideals, not neutered or warped versions of killing techs.

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Oh, actually Shin Shoryuken is not Banned, Shin Shoryuken is the purified version isn’t it? It’s the Kinjite Shoryuken, the one that is similar to the one he did to Sagat in SF1 that is banned.

And yes I agree that Ryu doesn’t have to reach Gouki’s standard in destructive force at all, he has to focus on other aspects of his humanity and use those to beat Gouki if they ever come face to face again. Like Rock Paper Scissors, theres bound to be something that he will use to neutralise what Gouki has, and also, some things that Gouki cannot defend against very well. Maybe Oro will just teach him how to levitate Gouki so he can’t move, muaahahaha, then he can just pick at him from a distance. Kidding of course…

Hmmm, remember the Manga where Guy neutralises Ryu’s SGS with his own Bushinryu abilities? I don’t agree that Ryu can use SGS without learning it properly, but still that’s something else I’ve been thinking about last time…Guy…

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Ok, time to type something proper, I’ve just been replying without reviewing and with anything that pops into my head.

Ansatsuken?

I think, it’s going to be very tricky for Ryu, or any fighter like Gouken, because ultimately, there will come a time where you will have to say, “I think the only way to not die is to kill this guy!”

It was easy for Gouki because he started out with the thought that he’s not going to care if the other person died, as long as when the battle ended, he came out tops.

But it’s going to be so hard for Ryu because seriously, mismanagement of any move can result in the death of another. All this talk about killing techniques and all makes people start thinking that the other techniques have less chances to, or cannot kill at all, but the fact is, even slipping up when doing Zangiefs Final Atomic Buster could just break a person’s neck. Blanka’s Electric Thunder can cause potential cardiac arrest. Yoga Catastrophe can cause serious 3rd Degree burns. Ryu’s/Gouken’s Shin Shoryuken can stop your heart if the initial blow busts your blood pressure etcetc

Of course, in the Street Fighter Woorld, people have superhuman constitution as well and could probably survive those blows like it was just a non-lethal punch to the thigh, but we don’t really know that.

See now if Ryu is looking for stronger opponents just like Gouki is, but doesn’t mean to kill them, then he has to do a few things.

  1. Train and and strengthen his current moves so they do more damage.
  2. Train and Find new moves that do damage or incapacitate.
    (This is where I agree with YagamiFire that he should develop on Denjin Hadoken (Ryu, not YagamiFire, if YagamiFire can do Denjin, he’s now my bestest friend). It’s designed more to incapaciate rather than to kill.)
    3.Train to defend against current known and future unknown physical moves.
    4.Train to defend against ki heavy attacks.
    5.Train to neutralise 3 and 4 instead of defending against it.
    6.Train to circumvent around 3 and 4 and use it to his advantage.
    7.Train to manage his own skills so that it doesn’t accidentally kill.

Before Capcom pulled a “Gouken sealed me” on Ryu , which I personally hated because it took out so much of his own ability to overcome SnH, he had a number ;

  1. How to, if he needs to, kill someone without losing himself.

Of course, we don’t know if Gouken’s seal is to actully seal off SnH for good, to Dampen it’s taking over the mind possibility, or to temporarily help him cope, because frankly, it’s not Logical that Gouken would know how to totally seal SnH because it is the condition of the mind, first, then the body. Anyone saying it’s to Seal SnH permanently is working on conjecture.

Ok back to Ryu.

Say he ever meets up with somebody that is so strong that he feels that the only way to stop him is to give him the strongest blow possible to stop him in his tracks, and the kicker is that Ryu won’t know if it will kill the other guy.

Will he do it?

(Gods this is so Dragonball, and Goku would do it)

But yeah, Will he do it?

And if he asks himself this, then he would have to train even harder to prevent something like this from occuring by becoming even more powerful so that he will know what to do in more circumstances so that he wouldn’t have to do it then. Goodness knows he won’t want to have to do it.

And that is going to be so hard. Not knowing when it’s the next person who you’ll have to kill just to survive because that other person diesn’t have qualms about killing you in the one to one fight. And meanwhile, not succumb to SnH. Oh yeah , I forgot about Gouken’s seal (DAMN YOU ONO).

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See, I think the Shoryuken itself is a problem. Even purified, it is something derived from a killing technique. To me it is similar to guns that fire rubber bullets…guns that are, mind you, still potentially lethal. By their nature, guns are made to be lethal. Can you neuter them and change them to make them -less- lethal? Of course, but you are going against the very nature of the bullet.

Ryu needs to branch out. He needs to go beyond the roots of his martial art. While what Gouken did is admirable in his restructuring of his arts Ansatsuken roots, it is, I think, a fundamentally flawed premise. If you want a non-lethal weapon you design one from the ground up…its folly to just slap rubber bullets in a gun and call it a day. I think Ryu is starting to do that with his techs like Denjin Hadoken because he has started to realize the limitations of his techniques.

And yes, I definately remember the Alpha manga where Guy (in something that was 100% pure awesome) defended against the SGS and in doing so insinuated the roots of “Mu” when he stated that defending multiple attacks like the SGS was second nature to him because of Bushinryu’s roots as a technique used to defeat multiple opponents. Logically one would need to not focus on any -one- attack coming at them and would have to simply react on pure instinct to be able to defeat many attackers simultaneously…hence Guy’s ability to block so many simultaneous blows from the SGS.

Though I do not know how I feel about Ryu using the SGS…mostly because I don’t know how I feel about the ‘technique’ portion of the SGS. We don’t know when/how Gouki learned the SGS either…he just showed up with it and used it. Additionally, SGS seems -intimately- tied to SnH. I’m gonna throw this out there…feel free to throw it back or shoot it down…but is there the possibility that SGS is not so much an actual -technique- as it is a wholesale embrace of murderous intent?

I will try to explain my train of thought as best as possible. Gouki starts his “win at all costs” mentality and departs Goutetsu and his brother. Later he returns and manages to defeat Goutetsu with the SGS, pleasing his master by surpassing him. Was this because of the technique itself or the mind set behind it? On some level I think the SGS is just a moment of pure, supernatural embrace of the essence of “kill to win”…or SnH. That is why one can lose themselves to the SnH through it…they can lose their mind to murderous intent. For that split second they hand themselves over entirely to the killing intent and in that moment they create an outpouring of offense…of murder…the SGS.

In other words, in that single moment…they -become- murder…they become the highest ‘expression’ of killing intent in combat. Is it borderline supernatural? Absolutely, just like alot of stuff in SF (in the same way a fireball is -supernatural- that is)…but it stems from a martial artists (the Gouki kind of martial artist, not the Ryu/Gouken kind) purist mind-set to win. -Any- hesitation or loss of this intent invalidates the entire possibility of it. All or nothing. Goutetsu saw in that SGS the fact that the master/student relationship did not mean ANYTHING to Gouki in their fight…it held no weight on his fist and, because of that, Gouki was able to wield the entirety of the killing intent…allowing him to perform SGS. This is what pleased Goutetsu…that Gouki had stepped towards pure martial arts where relationships, friendships, family, etc have no place on the battlefield. He had stripped away his own humanity…which, incidentally, is a phrase we often hear in regard to Gouki.

This view of the SGS would also explain how one can be ‘lost’ to the killing intent…how one can lose their mind. If unable to reign themselves in from the SnH a man would just become a ravening beast destroying everyone they came across (“MURDERKILLDIE!”) rather than appropriately wielding it in combat. This is what really threatens Ryu…an inability to turn “off” this killing intent hence why Evil Ryu is always portrayed as something of a maniac…far FAR from the cold, collected and detached Gouki. Evil Ryu can’t ‘turn off’ his killing intent so he just kills everyone he meets where-as Gouki only kills those worthy of death in combat.

This also explains why an “Awakened to Killing Intent” (or just Evil for brevity’s sake) Ryu would be able to perform the SGS…he’s already given over his humanity to the desire to outright murder the opponent so he can elevate himself to the SGS ‘state’ and bring it to bear on an opponent. Since it isn’t really a technique so much as a momentary elevation of the self it would explain why one does not need to be taught it…and how Gouki (and theoretically Ryu) could simply -do- it.

Similarly, this ties into the concept of Mu we were discussing. If the SGS is a moment of utter focus on an opponent (for the sake of destroying them) it makes sense how it would be beaten by Mu…a moment of utter ‘emptiness’…of focusing on -nothing-. It makes them exact opposites really while making them ‘states’ more than just techniques. This also makes Mu the ‘highest state’ of Kikouhou just as SGS is the highest state of SnH. They would be flip-sides (appropriate for brothers) to two different methodologies.

Again, I am rambling a bit and I might be -way- off but I always love a good discussion…and this is as good as they get.

PS: Contrary to rumors…I can’t yet throw a Denjin Hadoken…still working on my Gadoken (which, as I’ve been told, is stronger anyway)