Got a friend whose a video major who can probably help me but since it’s not a great setup causes HELLA lag, after some major practice on it I could probably make a video but might be awhile maybe 2 or so weeks.
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How does Gouken’s Vortex work? (for more detailed setup description read original post which is quoted above)
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Gouken’s Vortex works by creating untechable knockdown than doing a completely safe mixup that will beat all options. While it isn’t necessarily normally tricky it is 100% safe save messed up execution. This paves the road for actual mixup based on the fear of responding to the Gouken approaching from the air on knockdown. This setups up mixups such as jump-in crossup Tatsu, jump-in MP for double overhead, empty jump throw and crossups as the normal approach again is a completely safe j. FP or Demonflip Divekick.
While not nearly as tricky as Gouki’s vortex it is even harder to counter allowing Gouken to bait mistakes which plays to his strong suit. Punishing. The other options are only to make your opponent believe he can counter you so that when you come in with a safe version of the move you either win for a small amount of damage (cross-up Tatsu) or get a punish combo (demon-flip mixup). Or because he’s so worried about the Demonflip you can setup a fairly ambiguious crossup and net a combo.
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What about Viper’s Reversal?
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Generally I recommend the MK setup on Viper as you can easily safe jump it and the angle makes beating it with roundhouse version difficult though possible (inconsistent even). Just go to training mode pick viper as p1 and gouken as p2. Set Gouken to record Sweep into MK Demonflip (pretty much as fast as possible) into Divekick (again just mash kick so it comes out as quick as possible). Their is 1 or 2 frames that you’ll actually have done it TOO early, but generally that is uncommon in my experience. Either way, your recorded part should so Gouken sweeping than demonflipping into a divekick and hitting Viper pretty much as he is hitting the ground. If this works go to play back let yourself be sweeped and try to reverse the demonflip with her upper if done right Gouken should block the upper. Practice this till you have this down than do with Sagat Tiger uppercut and the timing is truly ASAP and if done right he should block even that.
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MK Demonflip is getting hit out of by non-3 frame reversals? (Ryu DP, Akuma DP, Ken FP DP)
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Well you just aren’t doing it fast enough I mean the timing needs to be withing a couple frames of recovering from the Sweep. Practice mode is your friend try the above on viper than work it on Sagat. If you have a friend to do the reversal for you that’s even better.
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RH Demonflip is getting hit by a DP?
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After a sweep generally you didn’t do it at peek range so you can’t come in at the right angle cuz your distancing is messed up so you messed up the setup so it couldn’t work or you did the Divekick to early. THE DIVEKICK MUST be done very late if when practicing you go behind them without hitting them your closer to the correct timing than if it’s not working and you are hitting them.
EX Palm>Sweep is the easiest setup by far to do this.
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Have you found any new setups?
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Yes, most noticeable option select jump in’s work with whiffed divekicks. Why is this good? Now after knocking Honda down you can do a safe divekick and option select a EX Hurricane it beats pretty much all of his wake-up options safely. No more headbutt causing headaches on knockdown. Generally this doesn’t work well against all reversals but works pretty well. Ultra can also be used and has given me pretty good results but some reversals escape it as it’s so slow. However, EX hurricane Kick catches backdashes very well so while I think blocking is still the best chun’s and vipers that like to backdash are in for nasty surprises if you do this.
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Sweeps and throws the only options that set this up?
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No after a dashpalm if they quickrise you can setup the MK or RH version if you hit them into the corner (RH is spacing dependent but after some practice this isn’t hard to recognize). Why do I like this. FP>EX Palm>FP Palm gives you about half a stage of spacing (guess what from half stage you can setup both pretty much). Well now you get a safe oki in the corner that sets up your corner pressure which is very very powerful for a good Gouken.
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Well what ways exactly can I set this up?
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Max range Sweep -let me reemphasize Max range
Ex palm>Sweep - easiest setup to execute/time the demonflip followups
Backthrow>sweep/Backthrow>j.MP(1)>sweep - j. MP(1)>sweep deals 150 into the followup easily his best followup besides ultra
Forward Throw>Dash>slight pause>Demonflip-Hardest because of raw dogging it generally don’t recommend the MK followup against 7 frame or slower reversals but the RH one with practice seems pretty consistant against DP’s.
Forward Throw>Dash>Pause>Demonflip - This is the hardest by far and I reccomend not trying to MK against faster than 7 frame reversals without a lot of practice. RH one seems better for DP’s though as with practice consistency seems possible.
…>Palm>fast as possible demonflip - Corner only and if they quickrise but very effective none the less and most good players quick rise the majority of the time. Also while you can’t confirm the quickrise into demonflip you can press the kick button early on the roundhouse version if you notice they don’t quickrise to land outside the corner. This works for all combo’s ending with Palms.
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here were some things i came across though. against viper and fei long doing the mk demon flip from the ex palm dash sweep doesnt seem to be working for me. with viper it trades or gets beat clean and agianst fei i just get beat. so, i changed it to hk flip instead and that did the trick. but the results are a little different. for fei all his fk’s miss except the lk version which loses and agaisnt viper if done properly she just loses. perhaps i am doing something wrong? another problem i ran into was your specific speeds for cammy and sagat, i couldnt get the mk flip to work either. so right now im using the hk flip and against its the same outcome as vs ryu but the lp TU sometimes trades. against cammy hk flip stuffs her if timed properly. is there some kind of tell on thier wake-up i can be looking for to get the mk version to work, or just do it as fast as you said, mash the kick button so the flip comes out ASAP and hope i did it right? off of the forward grab its the same story,i have to use hk flip instead of mk, however, it would appear that a forward step after the dash is needed to get the proper timing and spacing so you are not beat.
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I haven’t tested what version demon vs every reversal but ya Fei’s highly vertical nature and fast speed make RH probably the one of choice.
Viper’s i liked to safe jump but maybe i should go back and try different variations of RH cuz beating is always better than safe jumping as if you beat it they can’t FADC and protect themselves.
You beating Cammy’s impresses me as I don’t think I tried RH vs her, but again beating/whiffing>safe jumping.
Against Sagat MK flip only. Seriously much testing has shown me it is VERY strict to get LP Tigeruppercut to whiff (otherwise it trades which is ggpo for you). MK was way more consistent for me. Maybe he can FADC but that’s 50% meter you stole for some chip damage, or you could just option select ultra for laughs XD.
MK version is very tight on Sagat/Cammy you really have to do ASAP but it is very effective and really the only trick is ASAP really just mashing the hell out of it typically works for me. Reason ASAP doesn’t whiff on them is they actually wake-up 2 frames slower than rest of cast.
Original post mentioned it seemed an extra step might be necessary after a forward grab I’ll try to create an official stickyable thread and video in the next week or two.
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Final Note
Remember I came up with this by messing around in training mode for only a few hours more discovery (especially character specific discovery) might exist.
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