Hey guys … I played USF4 @ Dreamhack this weekend and want to give you my thoughts and impression.
First, I did not played him for the whole day but tested some stuff and all the new buffs.
Best thing first:
EX Tatsu hit crouching --> Actually this special is now a 7 frame super SRK on crack … it hits everything and all in front of him … the hitbox is so big that it even connects on crouching chars that are so far away that they not even touch his foot when he does the EX Tatsu … It is incredible good !!! Unfortunately I was not able to connect a Ultra 1/2 after an FADC !? If you do it point blank you will dash under … HK Tatsu follow up does about 280 damage.
cr.mp buff --> Very solid and fun … hado does not combo from very far away but in all regular combo scenarious (like from cls.mp) … it is similar to ryus cr.mk x hado (maybe a bit shorter) but it combos easily in sweep … which is pretty dope … and also FADC into pain train works. Very good stuff. Unfortunately it pushes you a bit out … so cancel into lp palm needs to be a bit closer … still ok … but not awesome. This will really boost his footsie game!
lp palm buff --> Well it is absolutely ok imho … still not the crazy range we all wanted but it is fine I think … best is that is works great with cr.lk x lp palm … the cr.lk does not push you out and it combos on an absolut good range … as a punish or as a footsie tool … good buff !!!
Demon flip nerf --> not much to say … dont know why they nerfed it … you still dont have a safe jump afterwards and the 200 stun was welcome for a risky reset … nvm … not a big deal.
I didnt found any other changes … like other frame data or a buff to the counter activation boxes … seems to be the same.
Overall he felt really solid … and if we get some small buffs … like fixing counter and maybe better frame data for cr.mk or a 4 frame cr.lk … I am sure that Gouken will be very solid.
I still want faster charge time for his 2 hit hado … dont think that it will break him … but we will see … imho Gouken will be a 10-0 MU for Hugo … haha …
If you use ono and just change s.lk to being special cancellable the combo works, you have to change it to be non-cancellable after a chain specifically to make that change.
The more I think about this the more I feel like Gouken will never get anything of use. I’m not sure why they are so scared to change anything with him for the better.
So many SMALL things they can do to make him all around better without drastically altering his design or making him OP.
Increase hit stun on his jumping d + mk.
Reduce height on air tatsus to make it mildly useful.
Make lp palm combo from any normal at max range
Make normal tatsu suck in so that he has some sort of anti air that isn’t EX reliant just so it works CORRECTLY as an anti air (normal tatsu can drop, HP counter can be the wrong one on a jump in).
Switch counter back to two zones.
Increase the range at which cl.st.mk fires off or make it a command normal with a worse hit box.
Is any of that game breaking CRAZY shit?
Come on, I am so sick of this shit. This is no fucking secret, we have been asking for how long now? Not even a test version with this shit.
I guess I should just be shitballs fucking THRILLED to death we finally got EX tatsu to fucking hit low and cr.mp to combo sometimes. Thank the almighty gods.
Even when they say they fix shit they don’t. You can still miss the EX punch after a crossup into st.cl.mp > cr.hp xx EX punch.
I’m talking about Evil Ryu. He can special cancel his close LK even when you chain into. Other Gouken players were talking about how this is already in the game so why not give it to Gouken to. The difference is that Evil Ryu’s far LK is different and can’t be special cancelled so while it’s a unique option for him, it’s not good because it has very limited range. I don’t think Capcom would give Gouken or any character the ability to special cancel off chained light attacks with that much range.
Yeah … it would be so good … and the other option is cr.lp +5 on hit (which would also be too good) or st.lk 3 frame start up (broken !) … only way would be the chain cancel … will not happen!
Don’t forget Balrog, ibuki and Yangs +8 jabs :3 +6 and +7 are 2 of the most common though and Gouken isn’t alone in having poor ones, but I doubt it’d be game breaking if the frames got tweaked a little more. really nice would be perhaps be +5 on only far LP and making far MP +6. MMMM. But apparently people told combo Gouken changes are fine and I’m just all kinds of -.- They aren’t bad changes, but I just have this feeling…
I’ll be in the lab refining mah Juri some more :3 Combo seems to love mah girl at least :3
I dont who thought he was qualified for this job, seriously. I heard him say on stream yesterday, “Chun can do that?! Nobody has played Chun since Super so I dont know what she can do”. Like wtf? I knew he wasnt qualified months ago when they were doing the Capcom stream asking for a list of buffs/nerfs. He only knows the characters he plays.
He is not solely in charge(though I believe the most important/involved of Capcom US?) Btw he was obviously joking there about Chun.
It was weird in the list he had of characters that Gouken was in it, I’ve barely seen anyone play Ultra Gouken at all(to be fair, I haven’t seen every inch of footage probably), I’m just concerned for the old man. Though unlike with previous generations at least mah Girl is getting some respect. Also to be fair, the changes so far are good, but I fear not omplmented fully enough. Like the situations where clMP cHP EX palm can still get blocked, even if its less often -.-
They are just dropping the ball with Gouken, period.
And I bet the people saying Gouken is fine with these changes, they don’t even use him or they alt. him every now and then… and they must haven’t looked at what everybody else has now.
Guys … it is not about that the jab would be too good … it is that +5 hit stun opens the full world for easy hit confirms into his crouching buttons … like cr.mp/cr.mk x special … if he would get this we would not talk about st.lk anymore … he would than have his ligh light medium x special hit confirm … !!!
Actually the EX Tatsu buff is finally there and seems to be good. For me everything else is dependant on the combo range cr.MP x LP Hado. This needs to be a relaint footsie tool (similar to Ryu) during ground game with FADC options as a hit confirm and dmg converter. These two changes will significantly move Gouken in Tiers or not. Everything else is just is nice to have, but only ice on the cake.
I played around again in training mode with counter hit (adv. +4 instead of the current +3) on and cr.MP x LP Hado, it did not seem to be enough for viable footsie, offense, pressure tool. I believe more would need to be done to make that viable. Either cr.MP frames overhaul (more recovery but also more hitstun) or HADO start up, i.e. more efforts would need to put into buffing Gouken tools. I am worried…
EDIT:
Seemingly far.LK x LP rush punch also does not be good enough in term of range, as if the LP rush punch whiffs, it will get whiff punished. My last hope therefore would be cr.LK x LP Rush Punch.
I think it is quite obvious, that neiter Capcom nor Combofiend want Gouken to have a hit confirm… Which is OK by me, if some of his other tools, particularly mid range, will get sufficient buffs.
I agree, though we have always had a hitconfirm off of clMP(oh god remember those 1f links that wouldnt work if you werent on top of the opponent with MP in Vanilla? shudders), but with how poor Goukens jabs are in relation to his own hurtbox I doubt even him having a jab hitconfirm would be going too far as at certain ranges it gets too hard to combo into any of the specials, especially vs crouchers. Though I heard it said that LP Palm didnt get a bigger hitbox but moves forward a bit which has me intrigued, I just really want to see someone use him in an ultra loctest -.-
Yeah, it’s time for some vids!!! Dek09, do something when being at loctest on NEC!!! PLEEEEAAAAAASE…
I also think a hit confirm from lights into maybe LP Rush Punch or EX Tatsu would not be too much. DMG would not be too hefty due to scaling. But we have to face the reality, he will not get this due to some irreversible design decisions…
A huge overhaul of several normals and specials would be necessry to achieve and balance that. Maybe even a exotic solution could be making cr.LP - far.LK a target combo which can be special cancelled (like a few of Dudleys TCs).
Anyway, I am 99,9% sure it will never happen… so why wasting energy on that. But cr.MP x LP Hado in a viable form may still be possible…