i think the common definition of rushdown is being able to (tick, tick, tick, option) repeatedly.
if the ticks hit, its a big combo.
if the ticks dont hit the character has a fast, reliable way of returning to tick range.
gouken doesnt have this.
he cant tick into combo and he cant regain tick range without opening himself up.
Hit confirm off of a standing or cr fierce? You guys have gdlk reactions…
If youre refering to me, I mean hit confirm off cross-up mk, st. hp. thats very slow.
Standing Fierce seems like it possibly has a big enough window.
Back on topic, Gouken has Demon Flip and Dive Kick, which give him great aerial options, j.mk is at the very least a reliable crossup, and his tick throws can be potentially very deadly.
He also has some really good resets off of ex palms and his back throw.
I have yet to test reliability, but it seems like after 3-hit ultra, if you HK demon flip kick…it will cross up sagat.
Agreed, but to make a shaky analogy, Gouken has the mixup game of Akuma as a positive, and the blatant, but high powered, combo ability and zoning of ryu. Knowing WHEN and the proper DISTANCE to “rush down” is essential for Gouken.
On the topic of Sagat… you have to pull some c.vipes matchup knowledge here and wait for an aggressive Sagat to be on his second iteration of a jab/short frenzy–> lk.TK to get a jab in and start your block string to distance yourself,or get lucky and try and combo.The crucial moment is once you either jab cancel, or link normals on him to something like a 4 jab cancel distance, what you should do.
You could play the defensive route and bait-> punish, or bait-> kongoshin, but where you’re really gonna win is with an Akuma like gamble and assault Sagat or another powerhouse, safe character and put him on his toes.
This can work with most top tier characters outside of Sagat.(less jumpins/aerial shit on matchups with solid AA)
Some places I like to start are, if I’m in the aforementioned range with sagat, after a link, I’ll end the link with a shortxx ex demon flip–> grab OR dive kick into a block string where I may attempt a grab,which nets in a reset. I’ve found that throwing a mp air reset in the mix when you have a life disadvantage throws off most opponents and gives you an offensive advantage and the distancing from a follow up block string to push the opponent in the corner, try a grab to ultra or another reset, or land an FADC to an ultra. You could also back off and bait him into trying to chip the last bit of your life, which lands you in a great opportunity to kongoshin FADC -> ultra.(watch your meter though)
but, this is for short and medium distances. Gouken can shut down any character if he corner traps them, but it’s in the mid screen and corner to corner game where your defense becomes your offense. Dont get me wrong… I love his hadouken options, but his wacky normal frames dont allow you the missed hadouken follow up options that other projectile characters have.
Dont be afraid to stay in the corner when they’re in the opposing one, and charge up hadoukens and link some shit with an EX demon flip. Even try out going for the rare slide kick link(works great on lariating giefs).
I’d say Gouken is a MUCH more aggressive character than people give him credit for and he really shines after building bar from playing defensively against most top tier matchups, then pulls out some Akuma shit and rushes down with FP flip cancels, resets, and block string mixup.
Just dont spam cr.HK’s, know that cr.mp doesnt link or combo(except for that whacky far away demon flip dive kick set-up), and dont play an Alex Valle ryu style hadouken game all day.
I guarantee if you fucks with your opponent by switching up styles dependent on distance, say every 15-20 secs. You’ll clutch the win. Otherwise you have to count on a flow chart gouken trying to match what could be an inspired Ryu, Sagat, Rufus, Akuma, etc… game.
Let me know what you guys think. I’ve been trying out this stuff in tourneys around here and it’s been doing alright against typical A rank match ups, but I find myself going to Akuma for some more comfortable matchups in semi-finals
Exactly my thoughts as well. Think of him as a Makoto/Akuma/Ryu hybrid in this sense.
I agree. Alot of people dont realize that the key to gouken is setting up the position you want them to be in with the hadoukens and his Antiair counter from the flip. Another thing people overlook with gouken is his counters are very quick if you are quick yourself on the draw. You can counter in the middle of combos from block (I have done it several times). I think his crouching FP is a great anti air. Another thing that I notice is that people dont realize that using a light demon flip into the kick at the right distance as they get up hits low instead of being blocked up which most of the time results in them getting caught off gaurd then you FP, EX Palm Thrust, Focus Cancel, and end with FK Tatsu (if your not in corner) or EX Hado into Ultra. I also notice that when they block a demon kick from the flip then do a FP and cancel into a LK Demon flip into his throw catches alot of people off gaurd.
If you countered during a combo then it wasn’t a combo, as that would imply that you were out of hitstun long enough to initiate a move.
lol you are very correct. Thank you for correcting me. I am sitting at home sick lol so im kind of out of it. Thanks for not flaming me too. that was my first post in SRK and Ive heard the community is pretty great.
I thought he was supposed to be a mind game character, rather then just defensive. A lot of his game is based on reading the opponent, baiting them, and punishing. You’re basically forced to hadouken spam when you fight the Shotos and Sagat.
You need to turn the fireball fight into your advantage.
You have your Demon Flip (option)-
-Dive Kick
-Slide Kick
-Throw
-Air Parry to Get in Close just in case of any Antiair (SRK mainly)
Control the skies with upward hadoken from medium range and if it hits Palm Slide for the extra hit. Also try making it a strategy to get close and FA since Gouken reaches Level 2 rather quickly if you don’t see an opening dash forward or back.
From the Demon Flip you can loop it with dive kick, cr. lp, cr. lp, demon flip (option). and just keep repeating that loop with a different option…,
Keep in mind that you can pass through fireballs on Palm Slide as well. and if you time it right you can go into EX Palm Slide (through Fireball) then dash forward to tatsu or you can reset them with a HK and then demonflip loop again.
Combine that shit, with a couple of emptly jump ins for throw or if possible back throws and you’ll have yourself a rushdown pattern.
Most of these things don’t work because people only look at his counter for defensive measure… I try to bait opponents to do certain moves so I can counter… for example sweeping up close and buffering a low counter right after because 90% of people will try to sweep you back. If you know they are going to hit you and just don’t know where… EX Counter blocks high and low…
http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Gouken_(SFIV)#FADCing_into_Shin_Shoryuken
Gives you some detail regarding what Gouken can or can counter… if it’s not listed then counter away… (I’m not sure about that frame data though)…
Wouldn’t the air armor / parry option be bad against most Shoryukens? I was under the impression that all one hit shoryukens (Apart from Sagat’s) were armor breaking, and the HP variant for Akuma/Ken hits multiple times, so…
I haven’t tested the EX Versions… Don’t quote me on this, but I’ved never been SRK’d out of the air parry so I assume it’s safe… and SRK is only armor breaking for FA… Counter is safe… I will go into practice mode and see if EX SRK can beat air counter…
Also many of the mulit-hits for SRK are still when they are on the ground… and for the rest of the hits… the spacing is long enough between frames to let the second hit miss… I haven’t tried EX verison’s… but I’m assuming an EX Demon Flip, would be safe from an EX SRK too.
Reversal SRK beats parry.
I had a Gouken HK flip across the screen, and I was anxious for the death blow that I did Ryu’s SRK when he was close enough, and I got parried.
Here’s another question: If you reversal EX flip to escape wake-up and want to land safely, is it best to land with a parry or dive kick?
http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Gouken_(SFIV)#FADCing_into_Shin_Shoryuken
There’s no recovery info. Dive kick seems just as safe as parry to me, if not safer. But parry parries both ways and is active the whole time you descend.
and where can i dl the sf4 anime?..
Neither. Both will leave you fucked when you hit the ground, particularly dive kick.
You want to whiff air throw on the first frame you’re able to, that leaves you with the best frames possible.
A lot of times if they’re in your face and you do ex flip to whiff throw -> land, you’ll end up crossing them up. You will be surprised on how many people will try to throw you when you land behind them. With whiffed air throw, you have enough frames to tech out of that safely.
Ok I just checked…
Sagat- Beware of the EX SRK… It destroy’s the air parry
Ken- The only multi hit you need to be concerned about is when he is still on the ground… someone would have to have crazy timing and reaction or just be plain lucky to hit you out of it… most people may just wiff the whole damn thing because of the angle that Gouken and Ken both take (esp the ex version)
Ryu- Same as ken but less likely to wiff b/c of start up time and trajectory.
I had my doubts but you’re right. I just tested it. Thanks.
Knowing what we know now, has anyone’s opinion changed about Gouken being played Rush-Down Style?? I still say yes.
gouken has a unique style of zoning that supports jump ins.
the people i play with often say i rush down with gouken but i do not think that is correct.
gouken’s high fireball in particular allows you to jump in more often.
when you throw high fireball a lot, your opponent wants to punish you from the ground and is reluctant to jump.
this means they are going to try to rush in with a ground attack or shoot you with a horizontal fireball.
if they are a fireball character, mixing demon flips in with high fireballs can often get you a jump in for a large combo.
if they have a rush in move, high fireballs mixed with neutral jumps and lk.df kicks can do the same.
if sagat has defensive zoning, i think gouken could be described as having offensive zoning.
instead of a very powerful defensive move like an uppercut, he has a very powerful offensive move with demon flip.
of course this varies depending on the matchup.