Nope its -6 on block and its not like tiger knee where it can hit on the way down, it either hits of it doesnt and pretty much all characters have something they can hit you with after, i.e. shoto sweep.
I swear to you… You can weak palm strike from about 1/2 a screen away or a little less and it’s safe with enough time to recover to block.
Sometimes I attack, or sweep low knowing that the shoto or whoever will block… and I transition into a counter before their attack can connect.
The only trouble I’ve had with Gouken is being thrown to death… 1/2 the blame is my tech game needs to be better, the other half is… I’m always playing online so the lag doesn’t help at all.
I rarely use the medium or hard palm strike not unless I’m trying to quickly cover ground, combo, or pass through fireballs…
This thread is getting good, I think we should use it to post rushdown strategies:
Heres one of mine. st. HK on block(block-string or not) is a good way to fish for ex counter. they cant throw you after(except for ken maybe) and you can beat lots of things opponents usually try like ryus cr. mk, and if they are near the corner you can fadc ultra or something else!
For sure you can space dash punches to be only -2 on block so that they’re safe against non-super reversal attacks. Has to be super max range, not really useful most of the time. Basically I use it as occasional meaty pressure after a combo that knocked the opponent far away.
ok. cool… I know i wasn’t imagining things… the spacing is so strict though. You can put your self in a BAD situation if not done right.
Also, goukens sweep is semi safe in about the same way(-3, with a little pushback). ryus shinkuu hadouken on reversal punishes it everytime, and a few things punish it from up very close, but its one of the few things that can. Just avoid it when they have a full bar 
Well I stand corrected I guess though I was very careful to get just the tip to connect, if anything its very telling just how exact you have to be which is hardly comforting.
Enough of this ‘it comes down to skill BS’, we have tier lists for a reason and tournaments are filled with the top tiers for that same reason. Skill is the biggest component in terms of win/loss but that is not the discussion - don’t BS youselves into believing that Gouken has ‘rushdown potential’ or some such nonsense. I have no idea how experienced you are at this game but a lot of the below is quite rubbish so I will go through it:
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Who cares if you can combo after a hadoken? Up close it has way too much startup time and its not like you can ‘hit confirm’ a long range one.
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Palm is rarely safe. What is worse is that if you do throw a ‘safe’ palm, you are way to far away to followup with anything and are not at a frame advantage! It is almost irrelevant that it can be safe sometimes - you just should not use it much at all unless you correctly anticipate a projectile.
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Your nonsense about Sagat is just that. Tiger shot recovery is too fast for reaction flip unless you have EX-flip at ~3/4 screen or less. mp palm is ok but it is not on-reaction IMO, it is anticipatory - the startup is too long. ROFL @ close quarters with Sagat - its pretty hopeless for Gouken. Gouken has a 4-frame jab and a 6 frame (!!!) crouching short (which makes his option select throw tech SUCK) and his pokes aren’t too good, except for c.mp which has a short range! He is at a disadvantage to nearly EVERYONE up-close. The only fast startup move he has is kongo and that is very risky (ex is slghtly less risky).
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What non-jumpin ‘hit confirm on reaction’ combos are you rattling about? The only one I know of/use is c.hp xx lp.hado fadc c.hp xx ex-palm. And that one costs 3 meters!
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Sorry, the rest of it is not worth typing about except the command throw. The backdash is his only option. Honda/Abel players know this. It is a 70:30 (at least) mixup against Gouken
I think you might be confusing ‘on reaction’ with ‘I’m playing a noob so I know what he is going to do’.
Gouken is good at the minimum safe hado range and farther out. Otherwise, he is in some trouble against a lot of the cast IMO.
I just started using Gouken like 2 days ago lol, I could never take him seriously. But he’s pretty fun to use I have to admit. I was playing player matches and decided to try out some of the unknowns (to me) on the roster to see how I did and I actually beat a very good, non-scrub Ryu. Funny thing was, although my Ryu got close in a mirror, I didn’t win. Then I went ahead and picked Gouken for fun and I did! I thought it was pretty funny lol. But yeah, **coming from Ryu to Gouken, I stuck to most of my rushdown strategies **and even though Gouken feels very different, it does work. But honestly, I think my winning that match was more due to the other player not knowing the match up very well than it was to Gouken.
This is why everyone has an opinion and option to play with who ever they like. Of course there are different Tier characters with match up advantages… and??
- Who cares if you can combo after a hadoken? Up close it has way too much startup time and its not like you can ‘hit confirm’ a long range one.
I use this on wake up, and in situations where you have a turtling opponent, nuff said. You can also hit them with it, after you use a mp or hp hadoken to knock them out of the air… the last time I checked the object of the game was to drain the other persons energy bar… so this helps. duh
- Palm is rarely safe. What is worse is that if you do throw a ‘safe’ palm, you are way to far away to followup with anything and are not at a frame advantage! It is almost irrelevant that it can be safe sometimes - you just should not use it much at all unless you correctly anticipate a projectile.
Bullshit, you can also use palm on get up for people who overuse FA. and again… if you have someone blocking your last projectile you can use it to get in close or for the safe chip damage.
- Your nonsense about Sagat is just that. Tiger shot recovery is too fast for reaction flip unless you have EX-flip at ~3/4 screen or less. mp palm is ok but it is not on-reaction IMO, it is anticipatory - the startup is too long. ROFL @ close quarters with Sagat - its pretty hopeless for Gouken. Gouken has a 4-frame jab and a 6 frame (!!!) crouching short (which makes his option select throw tech SUCK) and his pokes aren’t too good, except for c.mp which has a short range! He is at a disadvantage to nearly EVERYONE up-close. The only fast startup move he has is kongo and that is very risky (ex is slghtly less risky).
Demon flip is a way to get in on Sagat… no one said that this is the only way of course if not timed right you will pay. Sagat has holes close quarters and none his moves are safe except for pokes. Yes he has one of the worst option selects, and your point is… … You can also kara throw St HK to your Back throw for Ultra, mp into demon flip grab rest, or tatsu… I’m pretty sure I’ll have an Ultra the way you are describing that I will be getting punished. and actually crouching lk is a good poke.
- What non-jumpin ‘hit confirm on reaction’ combos are you rattling about? The only one I know of/use is c.hp xx lp.hado fadc c.hp xx ex-palm. And that one costs 3 meters!
lp into tatsu try it sometimes…
- Sorry, the rest of it is not worth typing about except the command throw. The backdash is his only option. Honda/Abel players know this. It is a 70:30 (at least) mixup against Gouken
I haven’t had too much success agains the command throw… I so I stick to zoning abel and honda. throwing his bullshit roll and counter jumping attacking honda’s head but for combo
I think you might be confusing ‘on reaction’ with ‘I’m playing a noob so I know what he is going to do’. not sure what the hell you are talking about here.
Gouken is good at the minimum safe hado range and farther out. Otherwise, he is in some trouble against a lot of the cast IMO.
true indeed… but that’s were practice and playing the game comes in… if you or anyone else can’t win with him, either commit to get better with him, find someone else to play with, or find another game to play. Everyone’s style is different and you can be beat by anyone. if you don’t play them correctly… for example I have trouble facing that bitch-ass el fuerte b/c I’m not very good against his wake up options… that’s not gouken… that’s me not practicing on backdashing, and blocking the cross up correctly… but this too will be fixed.[/
Neutral jump is a good answer for command throws if you’re decent at predicting them. Free BnB? Yes please.
Also beats sweeps, Abel’s cr.hp (I think?), and forces him to block on a whiffed cr.mp. Pretty much anything most Abel’s will do out of a roll, really.
Opinions are opinions but a some of your information looks wrong (or unclear/confused I guess). And btw, I do win a lot. But it is mostly because “G1” on the Internet is full of players who really don’t know what they are doing.
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You hadoken on wakeup and somehow this is rushdown? If you hado on wakeup too close, gouken’s hado startup is so slow it can be snuffed with a reversal. If you meaty hado too far away, it cannot really be followed up except with ex-flip but this is predictable. Nuf said.
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Ok, you are clearly referring to low level play. Just about anything works at that level. Safe chip damage with basically a frame disadvantage != ‘rushdown’. Nuf said.
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Um, TK is pretty much safe unless the Sagat is really really newb. He can out poke Gouken all day except for risky kongo. All your blabber about backthrow is pointless since the move is worthless outside of punish. It is too easy to tech, it is a 90%+ tech offline. A guy with one finger could tech it. Demon flip mixups are ‘ok’ against Sagat under certain circumstances, in most he can crush it easily. c.lk sucks. Please compare with other characters c.lk.
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c.lp xx tatsu is not a hit confirm cancel - where on Earth are you going with this one?
Yes, neutral jump fp is a ‘good’ option BUT Abel’s j.fp will crush it. Maybe trying nj.mk will do better??
Backdash is better but the problem is that in BOTH cases Abel can either jump and fp OR jump and cross up (empty). The mixup is heavily in his favor IMO.
I believe he can also roll to setup another mixup if he sees you jumping out of mixups. It is a nasty pressure game.
Abel is not impossibly difficult or anything, he has a lot of other major weaknesses. I am speaking more with respect to Gouken ‘rushdown’. If Abel does not stand still and try to guess demon filp mixups and instead rolls out of them (or j.fp) - he can be a real problem as Gouken is just not mobile enough to get out of Abel’s command throw mixups.
well maybe I’m referring to on reaction combo.
You are prob pretty decent if you are in G1. I normally play online, so I have to deal with the XBox live BS. Not being able to tech the throws. lag on wake up etc. so Abel/Honda/El Fuerte gets away with the BS… the other part is… I just got to get better at my teching game. Started doing the OST shit. and its working a little bit.
I just started using Gouken a few weeks ago. I normally main Ken and Sagat… so I know how to fight around their bullshit…
I have issues with your philosophy on Gouken. Mainly because I play a Balanced or offensive Guile that is seldom, if ever, found defensive (depending on matchup as always but it is a rule of thumb to be offensive. Keep that in mind for the rest of what I have to say. Also to keep in mind, my definition of defensive is staying as far away as possible for as long as possible)
Gouken does not have a sucky wakeup game. Guile, by far and large, has the worst wake up game out of them all. He can get crossed up all day and have very little to say and do about it. Gouken at least has a handy counter move on wake up that’ll make them gtfo. But then again, the wake up game is always the same with everyone. You’re always trying to out think what the other person is going to do.
Honestly, sometimes I forget I even have Fireballs or Tatsu with Gouken. I’m using his dash palm to get in close as well as his demon flip. His best combo, imo, is a rush down attack. j.hp > hp xx ex-dashing palm > ex-hado > ultra. And you know what? You gotta put their butts into the corner to do it. All around, that attack string dishes out a juicy 650+ (if memory serves) of simi-easy damage.
His tatsu is for combo’s, his fireballs are for pacing. If you think defensively, you play defensively, but the attacks have way more application than what you would give them credit for. You can fireball spam all you want but then you become predictable. You gotta be tricky with characters and use them in smart ways.
You can’t play sim as a rush down, I agree, but that doesn’t mean you have to run for your life with him. His best game is being tricky with ex-fireballs and teleporting behind people. Same with his ultra. He doesn’t have to sit in the corner and run away with teleports, using fierce and fireballs all day long. Instead he can use his teleports to get close and cross up. I doubt getting in close on purpose means playing defensively.
You can’t sit in the corner and hope they can’t get in close, because you know what? A good player will, and you’ll end up in the position you didn’t want to be in in the first place. So learn to set the pace because that’s Gouken’s true talent. Resetting the pace so that things go his way.
Well put.
I agree with Gator. The rush-down Gouken can do is to jump, flip (not a bad idea to combo from low LK), and walk or dash, and safe palms. But his defense is more reliable. His fireballs are also great for an odd rush-down as Gator put it.
That said, sometimes I go relentless with cross-up to HP and hope I can combo to EX palm, or combo cross-up to jabs and interrupt at random times to throw if it’s an easy cross-up.
Which brings up his cross-up which is almost essential for rush-down and his cross-up is good and the combos that follow are devastating.
I don’t really agree about repetitive crossup j.mk, fp. This is not at all effective against reasonable competition.
If they block the j.mk the fp is so slow they can EASILY srk it and even throw you out of it. In fact, depending on the how tall the opponent is, e.g. Sagat, they can just try to throw you out of anything after the blocked j.mk xup and it will beat nearly ALL of gouken’s followup options.
Most characters can rush down by throwing jabs after a cross up and be relatively safe (e.g. like a typical Boxer jumpin or a Ryu xup to c.lp or c.lk). This does not work reliably with Gouken because
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The block stun on the j.mk is not long - not enough frame advantage.
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Gouken’s followup options are very slow (c.lp 4 frame vs 3 frame throw startup).
If you want to go for the big combos, you should use c.fp, which is quicker, but this still has holes. The quickest way to get good at Gouken’s mixup game is to hit confirm the jumpin. If they block it cancel the c.fp into a demon flip.
Also, cancel c.fp anti-jumpin into mk demon flip also puts pressure but loses to reversal SRK so don’t get predictable.
Thats true, but I find interesting to cross up mk, st. hp, hit confirm, continue with combo if they didnt block or cr. mp xx hadouken. may sound weird, but since st. hp is 0 on block it works more than it should.
By the way, people, I think it has been pretty much estabilished that gouken is mostly defensive but can be somewhat offensive.
I think the best course for this thread now is to make it a compendium of offensive strats, so people can use them in matches that we actually need to be offensive, like against boxer.
In my opinion about the topic I think Gouken can rush depending on the opponent. I cannot deny his strength lies in his defensive Game but to say his rush game is weak maybe compared to Rufus and c. Viper.
How I set-up a rush down is always with a Fireball in the mix. For example If I am a good full screen away Fighting a sagat as an opponent a nice mix up after throwing LP Fireballs with Gouken Ill stop to throw a medium Fireball then EX Demon Flip across the screen. He could either try to Tiger uppercut between the hit ( Where I would Block then Pound him with a combo) if he attempts a throw( I would just jump straight up then come down with J Fierce P into combo or he could just naturally block where my block string would be jab+ Jab+ standing short+ down medium into small demon flip into air parry into another combo or a grab. Like I said depending who you fight Goukens rush down game is good but not solid