Antiair cr.hp is basically free vs Honda because of his low jump arc. Don’t Kongo.
s.mk, s.hk, or hado him out of stop sign.
A good Honda player will try to poke or footsie you out of the game.
Because almost all pokes beats Goukens and the range is pretty far. Your best poke against Honda is your Fireball, but once he got through it, and this can happen really fast, its almost over.
You are only save with fireballs at full screen. At mid screen, Honda has the opportunity to jump in, focus in or to poke in.
I would say, that you only can zoon out a good honda player if your reads are correctly.
Otherwise you have to fight through the close combat with wise decisions.
I dunno how difficult your honda opponents were so far, but i played very often a really good player who has solid Tournament expierence and its really difficult to do something about his pokes. At mid range Fireballs get pretty useless, because it is easy to punish by Honda if he knows how.
Reserve your EX stock for EX hados against a honda
when jumping back use sk it will reset honda from head ram for reset setups !!!
i cant remember if it was the exact same scenario but from one of the parrysa , i think lo- it will absorb a hit , then get broken by armor breaing properties of the u2
Beware his Ultra and super when using those, they give him a far bigger window to catch you.
Hey guys,
I checked out community tier-list to see what others thought about the Gen match up. I’ve been playing a lot against a local friend of mine, he’s an amazing Gen player. I’ve never seen anyone rush-down and zone with Gen pokes better than he can.
That being said, I noticed a lot of you think the match is majority of the time either even or slightly in Gouken’s favor. Why is this? I’ve been having a horrible time with this match-up. Gen out pokes Gouken. He has amazing counter-poke, frame-trap, and ambiguous cross-up setups. U2 destroys Gouken’s zoning abilities. Any fireball outside of max range is punishable against U2.
I feel like I can’t keep Gen out. I always end up making the wrong decisions with my fireballs, and his jump makes it harder to anti-air after fireball recovery. Also, his Crane dj.Fierce makes his hitbox smaller, so anti-airing with most normals gets me stuffed. Also, poking Gen gets you crumpled by a focus attack with every normal except jabs and shorts.
Do any of you have problems with this match-up similar to mine? What’s the general consensus against Gen? Also, what are some of the patterns you guys tend to see when playing against Gen, and, what moves are punishable for major damage?
:china:
Yeah fighting gen can be tricky. I fought a few really good Gen users and i learned a few things to deal with them effectively.
I like to rush down and work my way in and out with normal and diagonal fireballs. You gotta know how to use fireballs correctly and hit them with up-fireballs when they jump. Most players don’t like fireball chip damage so use fp.hado-palm to catch medium range jumps and mp.hado-fp.palm(or EX.Palm slide) to catch far neutral or forward jumps. I throw out a few lp.fireballs and i try to bait a jump-in-attack to parry.
That’s the first level. If they can deal with fireballs by focus absorbing and not getting hit by Palm’s when i predict a focus absorb/dash that’s too close to me. Then i start using other ideas.
(BTW i use the idea of “levels” because using certain strategies against noobs can be fatal. You wouldn’t use resets against a masher, would you? No. you poke and bait your way to a win.)
Next is dealing with his jump-ins and command-jumps:
Don’t parry jump-ins unless they’re extremely obvious.
If they jump forward somewhat close to you, expect a cross-up. Parry or Block.
If you start parrying some jump-ins, they (if smart) will bait and punish parries. The patterns are usually this [1 for jump-attack - 2 for bait(or empty jump)]: 1-2, 1-1-2, 2-1. This pattern could probably be used for other characters too.
If i see him jump-back diagonal onto the wall(the command jumps), i jump and air tatsu to catch the incoming attack. Sometimes it works sometimes it trades.
If knocked down, expect downward off the wall dive kicks on your wakeup. They tend to cross-up so block accordingly.
If knocked down and they don’t jump but get close, expect a grab, normal(low normal if you’ve been parrying high), or overhead. So block, parry(if you expect a low attack), ex-parry, grab-tech, focus attack backdash, dashback, ex-tatsu(for incoming attack)
(See that long list? yeah… gouken is a slut when he gets knockdown.)
On his wake-up, bait the up-kicks and punish. Watch out for delayed kicks during his anti-gravity move. Let him fall then punish. If they stop using upkicks, grab or overhead-attack him, then bait again.
And i guess if they get too crazy with pokes on the ground, use Ex-parry to get them the fuck off.
If they have Ultra 2, bait it by throwing a few non-charged fireballs. They can’t Ultra2 on reaction to a fireball if they’re on the ground. If they’re in the air, don’t be dumb.
Ultra1? don’t spam fireballs. Play safe and lame.
They get ultra for a reason. Get them low on health and bait out ultra’s, up-kicks, off-the-wall kicks and punish.
And it all comes down to that. Get him the fack off! Play lame and play safe.
Yeah and it completely prevents you from using fireballs from mid screen to close range. Once they get Ultra or super i just switch modes and i rush-in. Honda is only good against gouken when he has Ultra or Super. Without them, he’s crap. So Bait bait and bait that damn ultra.
just to add on to deads post, ive had alot of success doing jumping mp on gen’s command jumps. if you see him jump to the wall, jump towards him and hit em with the mp. most of the time it wins outright but sometimes it will trade. i think it depends on timing.
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Thanks a lot for the advice guys. It sounds like I know most of the general concepts of the match, and I’ll need to work on the specifics. I think the key for me here is to incorporate your thoughts, and to remain diligent in executing them. One thing a lot of my friends have noticed while I play against them is that if I do something mid-match and it stops working, I totally stop using it. E.g. - against Gen: My friend noticed that if he punishes my fireball game just once in a match, I completely stop using fireballs for the remainder of the match. This is a habit I have to get out of. As much as other characters will try to push you to play their game, I have to continue to try to (safely) do the same.
Much obliged. :china:
Sigh… this is how I feel right now lol [media=youtube]8uIBRApifR4[/media]
Ive been doing alot of ranked latly now that I have my own apartment and Internet service without having to worry about people making me lagg lol. Anyway Zangief has been kicking my ass for days now. I know the matchup but I just keep getting outplayed. Its like once they get that knockdown on me my ass is guess wrong everytime on wakeup falling into his Oki bullshit. I want to kill gief right now lol…
Do autocorrect EX tatsu on the crossup. It works.
Ive been watching alot of bullcats fights and I think i seen him doing something along the lines of that although I feel it still as too much of a risk factor and the situation is still in geifs favor. He can just empty jump and block and then he has a full punish on your ass. Goukens Tastus have too much risk not enouth Reward >_>
[media=youtube]lonvnpdN3AI&feature=player_embedded[/media]
If he’s doing a crossup after EX Green hand he can’t block it. It hits him in the air. Edit: That’s the advantage over Kongo. If he empty jumps he still gets hit.
Also Zangief doesn’t want to SPD you, he gets really bad oki afterwards.
Zangief can never jump at you because of s.mk, cr.hp, lk tatsu, kongo, and ultra 1.
Punish EX Green Hand on block with cr.hp xx EX Palm or backthrow -> ultra.
Don’t get walked to the corner. Defend your space with sweep, s.hk, and lighter pokes so you don’t get predictable.
Double edit: zangief normal can’t crouch underneath EX tatsu so you can FADC it for safety if you have the meter.
Thanks for the tips. I know about green hand punish but I dont defend my space like I should and I sometimes end up in the courner traped lol. Just for a refresher what would the inputs be for this auto correct EX tastu?
How does Gief get bad oki after spd? They usually SPD land and green hand to your face and mix up?
The recovery on Green Hand is more than you think. He can barely get a meaty cr.lk in there and he can’t walk directly up to you, he has to do it immediately after the green hand. A lot of times you can mash jab and it’ll beat whatever he’s doing. Or forward throw/backdash/jump back. His best way to beat jab/throw is green hand -> SPD… which will cost him 450 life easy if you neutral jumped. Seriously, don’t respect the mixup after SPD (midscreen). His best option is cr.lk, which loses to low Kongo. EX SPD is different oki though so he can do whatever then.
Just input a tatsu before he crosses you up and delay the button presses. It’s a timing issue, not an input issue. Obviously you need to make sure Kongo doesn’t come out (although that will probably do the trick too).
And I know the risk involved in EX Tatsu is very high if you mess it up. But you can practice vs Gief setups easily in training mode. Have him do EX Green Hand (get hit), and hold up forwards while doing a splash (or have him empty jump to guarantee that you’re hitting him out of the air). He can do the same setup off a close 360 :k: grab.
I don’t know if his ‘short jump’ has different jump speeds so he might be able to bait the EX Tatsu with a short jump. But you don’t have to do it.
Most bad Zangiefs compensate for Kongoshin by doing empty jump SPD. If you see him do this don’t be scared to backdash or neutral jump on prediction.
This match can be incredibly annoying. One thing i learned and it’s something that bullcat does in the vid, is that you need to converse meter. You need meter to ex-tatsu his jump-ins and to EX-air-tatsu escape.
That means no ex-palm, ex-hado, and ex-df.
The extra damage from ex-palm combos might be nice but unless it kills him i would not use it. There’s too much risk in not having meter if gief gets a knockdown.
Hado? well while it’s funny to catch a gief with an ex-hado when he tries to avoid the horizontal hado or when he jumps. You’re much better off saving meter and using normal hados. Would you rather EX-slap gief with plasma or escape his mixup?
I like to demon flip gief’s on their wake-up to test them to see if they know how to avoid DF-grabs. If they start jumping back i start using jumping fierce’s. If they ex-green-hand? fuck it. They lost meter, i didn’t. You could try DF-slide if you think they might backdash, but that’s a bit too dangerous for me. I would back off and make them come to you.
Also, don’t forget to neutral-jump-fierce or air-tatsu his jump-ins, back-throw blocked green-hands, push them back with hadou’s and don’t try to Ex-df to escape his mixups. If they’re expecting an EX-df escape, you could use the regular long range df to escape.
BTW the gief in the vid is not that good or he just didn’t know how to fight goukens. He did not continue to parry bait after a successful one and instead tried to predict parries with his grabs. He did not stop using lariats to evade hado’s even after getting hit by all those st.rh and he jumped way too much.
FYI against the Dan loop. If you cr. tech with using cr. lp and cr. lk, if he tries his Dan loop it causes him to whiff and you can punish his recovery.
Aint that a normal crouch tech anyway? Anyway I hate fighting dan with a passion lol!!! Dan loop is so cheap >_> Safe on block and armor break lol.
^ yeah, but in some match ups and cases you want to use cr. mk to stuff overhead attacks.
You can use grab and os any normal.
That Dan loop is insane.