Awesome man. So I went into training last night and it turns out that I was all off. When I do the dash, flip, I always try and get the kick to crossup because the DP will either whiff or I get a combo even if they’re blocking correctly. I think I was waiting too long and this loses to ex tatsu. If you place it right over their head like you said and right on their wake ex tatsu doesnt even come out because of the slow startup AND you get a full combo because you stuffed it with a counterhit. So I guess you just cant do it TOO deep or it will lose. The slight bit of trade off is it occassionally loses to mp dp because of the longer invincibility. If they mash it wont but if they wait and try to get it to auto correct it’ll lose about 30% of the time…which is another thing I was trying to avoid by doing it deeper than usual. So I guess we can use the deep one on Ken because his mp dp is ridiculous and he has no in-place tatsu and the one you have here on the rest of the shotos.
Biggest issue I find with Gouken is his normals, I mean he has lots of nice tools but no shoto low forward, no Akuma sweep and generally just bad lows, like he can’t chain his short and his c. strong is o.k but far from what he needs. It’s like Capcom made him out to be a zoning character, but then gave him bad footsies because he has a dive kick and an air art.
Gouken’s sweep is actually better than akumas. Akuma can just do more with his per tools the tools he has by being able to jab link into it and sweep off of lk tatsu/air tatsu, thus his vortex is better than ours… combining that with armor breaking-instant recovery-DF Palm and he can vortex again off of his DF Throw, and the fact that he can destroy focus’ attacks with st. hk > cr.lk/cr. mk > lk tatsu sweep… is really what differentiate the characters. Not to mention, Akuma can wake up with 2 invincible moves (srk and teleport)… and if he has u2 you have to let he teleport for free in most cases or he can U2 you.
Damn… looking at all this shit… is Gouken thaaaat BAD, when compared to Akuma?? It sucks because I play better with Gouken than I do Akuma… go figure.
Gouken needs to be buffed… pretty bad.
Heh I’m a Guile main, Gouken has got it o.k, he’s just not Akuma, it’s the same problem pretty much all characters that are not Akuma have. I’ve taken to playing Abel in a lot of match ups just because people sleep on him and he tends to body Akuma and Viper played well.
Eh, but our fireball recovery is so good that we can use hado as a poke. Its no Guile recovery but you have to predict one, theres no reacting and jumping over. Plus we can kongo Ryu’s awesome cr.mk. Been finding it to be somewhat easy since its their go-to move in footsies. All of Gouken’s pokes are godlike imo. But you’re right, a better low poke would be nice.
It’s very easy to just block Gouken standing, you don’t need to fear high / lows. I mean if he sweeps you, you can just focus absorb it as it’s so telegraphed most of the time because you know he can’t just mash out crouching shorts on you.
Gouken does have a really decent fireball, the strong one in particular is great because it can catch attempts at jumping while still hitting those higher normal moves. Gouken can definitely play the fireball game, unfortunately his kit isn’t based around hurling fireballs.
Hahaha, thats ALL he’s based around. He’s built as a zoner. And cr.lk, lp plam is something low I suppose. It’s not to be completely feared like a cr.lk startup from Akuma or Cammy but those combos dont do damage, they just put you in position for more mixup. But I agree, he’s not to be totally feared low and I find that opponents dont even block low againsthim. It’s all relative though because I revolve my game around knockdowns and with our godlike sweep its GOING to happen. Once down Gouken is probably 4th at vortexing behind Akuma, Cammy and Ibuki.
True indeed… but if they block too long they eat back throw and if they try to tech you can counter hit them. Dealing with Reversals and having no offensive reversals aside 7 Frame EX Tatsu is probably at the top when you consider his weaknesses.
Most characters have atleast one offensive move that act’s as an all purpose move… Gouken doesn’t have that… That’s the biggest flaw in his design, b/c almost everything has a different approach you need to take to be successful… as most of the time you end up doing guess work and try to predict what the other person is doing while not being predictable yourself.
Save Akuma and Seth with their Gazillion options… Fireball Characters aren’t really that strong in this game… I think the fireball has it’s uses and a few match ups where fireball is good… but this game is based on hit confirms and being able to get people off of you with a GOOD reversal that doesn’t lose to throws and armor breaks. When you look at the top 10 or so… they all can do this pretty mindlessly… if they are hitting you reversal them, if they are grabbing you… reversal them… if they are going for counter hit… reversal them… if you aren’t sure… reversal them and FADC it… and this is usually all done with the same fucking move.
You don’t even need to jump over Gouken’s hado… all you need to do is keeping walking forward and focus through it… it’s not like it’s going to hit you twice… I don’t know of any another character on the game where you just can walk up on them and not feel too threatened about what they can do to you…
I wonder if in Gouken’s original design, if he had a teleport or something… b/c something is clearly missing folks.
I think we’ve all adapted to some degree, but this game is too offensively charged, to have all of your decisions be based off of a defensive perspective unless you get a knock down… and then if you get the hard knock down…you just don’t want to GF Grab… If you want to keep your momentum…
Here’s exactly what’s wrong with him…
-Tatsu Whiffs Low-
-Tatsu Drops All the damn time
-Tatsu has 0 invincibility on the ground… (Can’t I get atleast 1 or 2 frames of hit/throw invincibility??? he’s MAX Punishable afterwards by EVERYBODY)
-ALL tatsu but EX lose to throw (it’s possible to cancel your pre-jump frames to avoid being thrown, but who in the hell is going to get that every time)
-Tatsu- Takes 40 Fucking days to come down
-Air Tatsu- Recovery too fucking long, even if you land it a lot of the time they are up as soon as you hit the ground… NO follow ups…
-EX Palm - No invincibility in the start up frames… Only in the middle, including fireballs. WTF
-EX Palm- You have to time it correctly to go through fireballs
-EX Palm- Not Safe on Block
-Normal Palm- SAME as the above except lp palm safe and it has SHIT Range with a 9 frame start up
-Normal Palm mp/hp- you can space it to be SAFE… but the set up is situational
-ALL Palms lose to Throw
-GF Grab- You can’t safe jump afterwards… only a cross up is a good jump in afterwards
-NO LOW COMBOS- that link to ANYTHING
-NO 2 hit ground attacks that discourage focusing (Oni’s st. mk would be damn good)
-NO 2 hit ground fireball even with EX
-cr. mp > hado doesn’t combo
-cr. mp > lp/mp palm doesn’t combo unless you are up close at point blank range… (why fucking use it)
-2 jabs… you can’t do shit after it
-NO LINKS TO SWEEP (Aside cl. st. mp)… you’d think far st. mp > cr. roundhouse would work but it doesn’t
-REVERSAL KONGO- Loses to armor break
-On Wake up- Throw his ass if he doesn’t have meter and he has to run (it’s possible to cancel your pre-jump frames to avoid being thrown, but who in the hell is going to get that everytime)
-NO Ground normals that force stand so you can USE Tatsu
-BACK dash is SHIT
WTF!!!.. I love playing with Gouken b/c I’ve adapted… but when you look at this, you can’t tell me that he’s still a piece of shit character compared to the rest of the cast and how the game is played.
And all of this is offset, but giving him high damage out put… which is about as dumb as giving a playable Seth every option known to man and giving him low Stamina/Stun.
I’d gladly give up some nerfs in damage to have all the above fixed…
Then I see, other characters do ALL THE FUCKING ABOVE, Go through fireballs, and have specials/ultras that you damn near can’t even punish.
And then someone has the nerve to ask me, why don’t I play Ranked more and get in the Top 8 or so… B/C I find it too fucking frustrating that’s why… It sucks to be clearly better than some one and they are able to compete b/c they can safe every fucking thing and you have to take risks and deal with it.
I play with Gouken b/c I like the character, I’ve figured out how to manage through the BS, and I don’t like being mindless… but FUCK! They could fix all of the above and he still wouldn’t be broken…
NOW that’s some sad shit…
I’m glad I made this thread to vent.
Long Live Gouken!
Hahahaha, aw man you went IN. I’d have to agree with MOST of the post. I dont think we should not have kongo break on reversal though. It would essentially give us a dp, and a one frame dp at that (minus the throw loop hole lol). If it wasnt vulnerable it’d be broken. I dont like the idea that reversals become armor breaking though from other characters. They should def take that away. If I predict a wakeup dp I should be able to kongo that ass and not have my shit broken. DP’s are godlike in this game like you mentioned and for them to be abused like they are, kongo should NOT be broken on reversal. I actually like our ex hado being one hit in both directions. If it was two projectiles we would have to guess high or low like we do with regular fireballs. It would suck to use a valuable bar, go ex fireball in one direction, someone predicts, jumps over and combos you for the kill. Then everyone would be all “Shit, I wish I had the old ex hado back” lol. Yes they can focus but we recover way too fast. Unless they’re in sweep range and focus ANYONE can get swept focusing through.
Totally agree that everyone seems to have a one stop shop for offense AND defense with a single move. Sucks but this is the character we chose lol. I used to play Akuma and loved having a DP but his health is way to low for me so I switched. I guess theres trade offs with everyone. E. Ryu, Akuma, Seth, Oni = all relatively low health. Even the 4 framers (minus Sagat) and all the female cast = relatively low health or standard. Only people that are in good position that have DP’s are Ryu and Ken. Ryu is the poster child so of course he’s pretty solid as a character but his sweep has horrible recovery and just flat out loses to Gouken matchup wise. Ken is good but has no armor breaking moves and a slew of other faults. I’m sorry but I love that our faults convert into having huge damage and stun output. I would take some nerfs to have linkable combos though. It blows that we cant start ANYTHING off jabs or have a cr.lk like Akuma. If they could just give us something like cr.lpx2, cr.lk, tatsu, man…that shit would be dope <------ This is assuming they make tatsu hit crouchers lol. I would soooo take a damage nerf for this.
So tatsu to hit crouchers, give us cr.lpx2, cr.lk, tatsu capabilty and not make kongo break on reversal…Gouken would be A Fuckin Tier and I wouldn’t be frustrated anymore
It fucking sucks, because I thought the point of playing a FIGHTING game is to be able to hit people.
They shoul either give everybody Fucked up options or fix him. If he has to struggle to get people of of him, it should be hard as hell to get in on him.
Have you ever played a really good Bison?? They walk and fous in… Do a dumb ass scissor loop, mix with grab, and standing hk from mid range. And what can Gouken go about it??? block and guess…
C’Mon man… And he’s a fucking BOSS character to add to insult.
Lol, hell yeah, I feel that one. You hado against a good Bison and instead of pushing them back they’re in your face lol. Plus in the corner they mix up going mid with that damn fierce counter hit. It’s ridiculous. I’ve just learned to accept the corner vs Bison, Adon and characters like that. If they gave him his Shin properties I dont think he’d be THAT broken. All he has is double fireballs which is only EX isnt it? And armor on our palm. Thats not broken status imo.
Capcom knows they are screwing Gouken… And I’m not even talking about the auto-follow ups or broken ass 2 hit fireball, and Armor Palm.
They know if they left regular Gouken in as Boss Gouken, he’d get his ass waxed.
Armor Palm would be broken… I’d AA almost every jump in with it…
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I don’t want a broken Gouken… just a complete one.
Yeah…boss Gouken is broken by a long shot even more so than all of the rest of them lol. U1 doing 670 damage and U2 fully charged…without charging? Hahaha…yeah.
Dont forget shins hadou infinites :3
Welcome.
Less wall.
Don’t sleep there are a lot of high level Goukens here, this just happens to be the thread where we bitch about him.
Gouken deserves buffs, this thread didn’t make it to 20 pages by mistake.
There are a bunch of other threads where we praise Goukens ability, but this is the universal thread to complain about what we don’t like about him.
And Gouken has never been close to top 3 In any version of SF… Even in Vanilla which he had the most bs, he still wasnt better than Sagat, Zangief, or Akuma…
But if you think Gouken is tops… More power to you. I must definitely be doing something horribly wrong all of these years.
Gouken’s vortex is probably his best tool and it’s still incomplete bc it’s not easy to start bc you can’t hit confirm it from jabs or low attacks, and gf grab doesn’t allow for follow ups iirc it has a 12 frame recovery or so. He can only land hado from st mp or hp so it’s only possible to hit confirm from st. Mp or off of a jump in. The meta game for SF has evolved to crouching combos/hit confirms and safe jumping/stuffing reversals.
Almost Everyone has ways to stuff reversals or anti srk tech, and are capable to os afterwards, every character has unblockable or hard to block set ups for the most part.
I agree that most Goukens use him wrong, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that the players have slow reactions when the character has slow reversals that offer no invincibility. As far as jump ins I was fine with that set up before they nerfed kongo. I’d hado they’d jump and have to worry if I’d kongo or not… There was always an uncertainty to whether or not you wanted to hit him or empty jump. That compensated the weaker footsie game, so they went and added a kongo for jump ins that doesn’t really handle jump ins… Unless you know where they are hitting and what they are using.
Bison, Viper, Seth, and Ibuki were all A Tier in Vanilla as well as Fei, I remember posting that in the General forum back in the day shortly after launch and got a bunch of Negative Reps because these dumbasses on this forum didn’t agree, then later the complaints start.
Bottom line Gouken needs to be buffed… Set ups are only good if you have solid ways to access them… A Vortex is only good if you can keep starting it and repeating it… This has been the premise of almost all of my requests or frustration about this character. He could be so good if they remove him out of the wheel chair. Granted I’ve done quite well with him as is… It only hurts when I play opponents my skill level and better bc they have as much tech as I do and most of the time with a better character who can spam safely… And armor break kongo.
@RAW - First of all, let me get to the good part of your post first. You are right in a few things. PERSONALLY, I think Gouken is the best character in the game. The thing is that he has all of the tools to defeat any player/character…everything is just situational. Going along with that, this means that in order for Gouken to be what he really is the eyes of I, a player needs to come along who can make the PERFECT reads in the PERFECT situations and 85-100% of the time and I just dont see that happening. We’re human and no one has 100% judgement. So its great that Gouken has the ability to be the best character in the game, the problem lies with us humans playing him. Now on to the rest of your post…
I hate to debunk you here buddy but this “tech” you discovered is bogus. Now I’m going to say that I havent tested these things but some of them I dont have to test. First, cr.lp does not beat 90% of the jump ins in this game so for you to say anything in that area is pretty ridiculous. Second, on Blanka, sweep, mk dive kick safe jump works…yes…but ex flip? Your better option would be to just block and land a full combo. If you ex flip the MOST you can get is a palm or denjin. Third, No normals beat ANY reversal so I dont know where you got that from. Fourth, nj.hp does NOT beat dp from any character. MAYBE if you hit them while out of invincibilty but Gouken doesnt jump that high. I’ve personally beat Kens DP with f.st.hp but I did it late and he was already off the ground and through with his invincibility. If you’re referring to something like that then that’s unbelievably situational and takes unbelievable timing to pull off. And lastly, Im gonna go out on a limb and say that you cannot backdash Bisons scissor kick and land a cr.lp into tatsu. You def will not be able to do this on heavy kick because it travels too far and will catch the back dash. EX and light are too fast and our backdash is way too slow. So you must be talking about mk version. Now at the perfect distance you CAN fadc the first hit but to land, then be able to combo off cr.lp? IIII dont know buddy. I’m not gonna say its totally false but if something like this were possible you’d have to be at the perfect distance and predict mk scissors which is almost impossible due to Bisons walk speed. I get what you’re saying about things being character specific but you cant post something outlandish and then pass it off as just being “situational”.
Welcome to posting, as any Gouken input is welcomed, and it would be cool if alot more Goukens were vocal in here about alot of things but dont go posting crazy stuff man because we have alot of new Goukens combing this forum and these threads and we dont wanna mislead them or give out false information, thinking they can nj.hp a DP. On the flip side to that, continue to post facts because you sound somewhat knowledgeable and we should spar sometime in the future.
Either you are trolling or you are on crack… You are basically telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about nor do I understand the character.
Pure Blasphemy.
Lol, man-o-man. I DO know alot about Gouken, I dont know everything but we play this character so everyone in here knows alot about Gouken. We all post and we all share but we all post and share facts. The stuff you’re saying simply isnt true man. I would like for you to go online and attempt to AA every single jump in from your opponent with cr.lp and tell me how that works out for you. While you’re at it sweep any shoto, walk up to him and on his wakeup nj.hp and tell me what happens. This stuff just doesnt work man no matter which way you try to flip it or if you call it situational. I said before that I’ve beaten Kens DP with f.st.hp, I’m not denying you cant do that, I said that its situational and that Ken was off the ground already. I was actually trying to catch a normal so I did it late, turns out that Ken just DP’d on wakeup and it hit him out of it after his invincibility was over. It was completely on accident and again, highly situational because I was at the perfect distance and I pushed the button at the perfect time. But because I did it late all Ken had to do was diagonal jump toward instead of trying to DP and I would’ve lost 40% life. This statement “I would post video but Im not the type to prove anything to neone so to not be discredited” sums up my whole post. I’m not asking you to post anything because I already know 90% of what you said up there is completely untrue.
Scissor kick madness you’re referring to…whatever. You can have trying to focus one hit and combo afterwards lol. Play a real match versus any half decent Bison and tell me how well it works. You must be “in the lab” versus the computer on medium or some shit because thats the only place you could halfway be attempting to pull this stuff off. I wasnt trying to put you down or anything like that man…like I said up there, theres new Goukens in here trying to get better and trying to get REAL tech that actually exists and you’re doing them a dis-service by posting false info. I’m not denying the combo’s you posted and the one-framers and all of that, I simply denied the stuff you said that wasnt true.
Play me. Thats all I have to say. Peace.