so whats this update supposed to have?
If you’re talking about the new version of SSF4, I’ll guess it’s for the new alt costumes.
This thread should be stickied soon
i coulda swor i just got an update for ssf4 but i cant tell what the hell it was…
Actually ALL characters are airborne on their backdash. Well at least Gens Crane Super can catch every backdash(even Dans) so I assume off that all are airborne.
I thought Ken didn’t have airborne frames during his backdash. I know Dan didn’t have any in vanilla but got tweaked in SSF4 changes.
Aye IIRC my Gen playing mate could catch both Ken and Dan.
Shoryuken - Super Street Fighter 4 Ultra Costume Pack 1 Problem Now Fixed
It was to fix problems downloading the new costume DLC.
Question (with the clear objective of making every single Gouken in here feel sad):
Why would anyone block standing against Gouken’s Demonflip?
Just curious.
Besides his nice zoning with the fireballs (which is completely shutdown by a big portion of the cast with super armor/decent hitboxes/invencibility), and his cute throw > non-scaled Ultra… what else does he have going for him?
No hit confirms (cl.mp > c.mk/c.lp doesn’t even count… that shit be horrible, mon).
Crappy wakeup options (Kongo is far from viable… you can’t exactly fadc it, which saves a lot of trouble, and EX flip is unsafe as hell even if they don’t bait it)
Horrendous footsies (one decent normal-> f.st.hk, also easily focusable)
No safe strings (apart from non-light normals canceled into hadouken, which is pretty much crappypants)
But really, the question that matters here is: why would someone actually stop crouch blocking and stand up against gouken? Apart from the ocasional jumping attack, which is VERY distinguishable from the demon flip, or the sluggish overhead.
Gouken losing his overhead dive was the most retarded thing they could’ve done to him.
It’s one of those characters the will never get far in a tournament because it ends up being downloaded mid-way. People learn the matchup quickly and adapt.
If only he had hitconfirms, I’d totally pick this old man as a decent secondary. Who knows? Maybe even a main…
Bro, if you don’t know anything about the character it would be wise to hold your tongue. Why stand against Gouken Flip mixup? Because cross up dive kick. Crouching just makes it all the easier to cross you up, and with how ambiguous it is I hope you get lucky in your blocking. Not that it matters if you crouch or stand, either way you’re susceptible to Gouken Flip throw.
And his zoning is some of the best in the game, only second to Guile in fireball recovery. Threw out an EX move with armor or armor breaking move? Cute. Eat a cr.LK > Tatsu, cr.HP > fireball/palm/EX palm/tatsu, ultra, whatever.
Arcade Edition is supposedly giving Gouken a hit confirm, so while I agree that is a weakness, it doesn’t make Gouken bad, just harder to use. And tons of characters don’t have great wakeup options. Bison, for example, has terrible wakeup. Same for Abel. Gouken doesn’t have any options worse than those characters on wakeup. If you think his footsies are bad you really don’t know the character. Cr.hp is a great AA normal with excellent range and can cancel into all of his specials for free, st.MK is almost the equivalent to Bison’s st.HK, cr.LK has great range, hits low, and cancels into Tatsu for free against standing opponents, cr.MP hits low, does good damage, is fast, and on counter hit can cancel into any of Gouken’s specials for a combo making it great in frame traps. His block strings might not be the best in the game, but they are by no means the worse. They are on par with Ryu’s block strings when you know what you are doing, and his corner pressure is godly.
And you say his jumping attacks are very distinguishable from his Gouken flip, but I doubt you’d be able to tell the difference between GF dive and j.d+MK in the middle of a fight.
tl;dr You don’t know Gouken at all and you should stop talking.
1- You don’t need to stand to block his crossup divekick. Just change the diagonal to the opposite side. Crouching makes it easier, but it’s bound to happen way less than anything else. Also, since Gouken sucks at hit confirming, as soon as you land a crossup divekick, you have no fucking clue what to do, because you weren’t expecting it. I see that shit happen all the time with Bullcat and Desora. Highly doubt the rest of the players can guess on their ambiguous crossups all the time. They won’t, and the outcome is a bunch of jabs into nothing.
2- Gouken Flip throw whiffs on crouching. Apparentely, you don’t know your character. The only way to land it (on a crouch blocking opponent) is on the first few frames of their wake up (or recovering from a standing hitstun). Makes zero difference if you stand or not, except doing an anti-air normal will beat it. Irrelevant either way, since the question wasn’t: “why shouldn’t someone just mash out of gouken’s flip?”. It was a different question. Right now, you haven’t gotten 1 thing correct. Let’s proceed.
3- What’s the relation with Zoning and “armor breaking combos”? And you actually believe a cr.lk xx tatsu beats EX upper from Boxer? And cr.HP > ultra is what? A combo? And Ultra breaks Armor. Wow, really? Something that apparentely only Gouken has. I’m learning tons from you. Your knowledge is astounding.
4- Bison has a teleport, EX DR, and EX PC. Those are 3 different guesses for the opponent. At least one of them is unpunishable against each character. You managed to choose the worst character for comparison ever. Bison has a weak close anti-air. His wakeup game is ACTUALLY good compared to something like… say… Guile.
5- Cr.HP is not a footsie tool. AA aren’t footsies. Learn the lingo. St.mk being almost the equivalent to Bison’s st.HK is not hilarious, it’s fucking ridiculous. WAY Less range, less damage, slower startup. Gouken’s cr.lk is as fast as Ryu’s Sweep (hits on the 5th frame). Also, “cancelling for free”. What’s that? If you weren’t an uninformed idiot, you’d have noticed that cr.mp actually starts up at the same exact speed, and has more range. Why the fuck would you use cr.lk to cancel into tatsu? Your gibberish is insane.
6- I don’t recall ever mentioning his block strings or frametraps. And no, they’re not on par with Ryu’s. Do you seriously need an explanation on the “why”? I’d have to list all the frame advantage differences, and how shitty Gouken’s frametraps are in comparison.
7- What I did mention were his combos not being safe on block, apart from non-rapidfire moves canceled into hadouken. Since he can’t hitconfirm the others, he turns into pretty much a “combo on punish” character.
8- His corner pressure IS good. But I don’t actually recall talking about that either.
9- His j.d+mk has absolute shit frame advantage. Why should I be afraid in case I don’t see it coming? Hits for 60. Ouch. The “pain”!!!
10- I asked a question about blocking standing, and I get a misinformed rant from a scrub on what Gouken has and doesn’t have, where he manages to be wrong about 99% of the shit he talks about, and the one thing he’s right about (corner pressure), has never been contested.
Mate, don’t dwell in stuff you clearly have no idea about. You just got here all happy about SF4. Please, go back.
**@The_Theorical **
Doctor Advice,
you dont need to write such a big text for us. We are playing this Old Man, because we like his style and we have fun with this character. In my opinion it doesnt matter if i success competitively. I love the challenge, because its a way with many big rocks.
this is not true actually the Gouken flip is very capable fo throwing crouchers, however the timing becomes very specific and large crouching characters are still easy. However something I have noticed misses a lot is if the opponent has a lowering normal, like the shotos c.MK, but I havent been in the lab to check if theres a height it can be caught as well, but it does make it harder.
Can someone with a PS3 shut him down and ultimately shut him the fuck up?? If I had PS3 I’d do it my damn self.
All that damn text, with a 10 point rebuttal and the only thing it proves is that you don’t know shit about Gouken.
Theory Fighter… good tag name, it suits you very well.
Carry on Troll.
Dear 12 year old, you have no idea what a troll is.
Also, add to the fact that no one in these forums likes ya because you haven’t contributed shit, and you keep acting like you own the Gouken threads. People have pointed out that you should come out of your pedestal, dear 09’er. Please do.
Either that, or read what people who actually do their homework say, instead of simply claiming they don’t know shit.
Apparentely, I do (it’s not complicated, I boot the game, I have a table of frames, pictures of hitboxes, matches to watch… the rest is beat’em up history).
So please, refrain from making yourself look like an idiot more than you already do on a daily basis.
Souchan, I could swear you can’t unless you do the exact same thing as Akuma/ElFuerte/Cammy/Hakan: catch them on the first 1-2 frames after wakeup.
If you do manage to pull that off in training mode against a large hitbox character, crouch blocking, tell me which, so I can see it for myself too.
Danke.
You can catch everyone in a crouch position, just the smaller the hitbox the tighter the timing. For giggles I tested it against some of the smallest hitboxes I know: Juri, Cammy and Sakura and could grab them all during training dummy on crouch setting. It’s not as easy on them, but works all the same.
Most special grab moves like these can grab an opponent out of 2 states. Usually either Standing/Aerial or Standing/Crouching. Akuma and Gouken both can grab Standing/Crouching.
Guy, Cammy and Hakan can grab Standing/Aerial.
Yeah you’re right I have no worthy contributions around here. Cr. lk > tatsu doesn’t beat Balrog’s rush punches. Crouching opponents can’t be thrown by GF Throw. His zoning is easily beaten. And he has bad footsies… (Far from the truth and you’d know that if you’d test it your damn self instead of playing theory fighter; either that or ask someone in the Gouken forum instead of trying to start shit wars).
I can’t honestly tell you who likes me and who doesn’t… maybe there should be a poll or something asking 'who likes iamthatiam?" Who knows, with enough uncovered hatred, I may just shut the hell up and quit rambling around here. Then again, I may just laugh at it and use it to fuel the flame. I-AM-THAT-I-AM after all.
But, from a trolls point of view, you’ve accomplished exactly what you wanted to accomplish with your original post, and that was to get under someones skin. Congrats you’ve managed to get some dialogue going on around your bullshit, now it’s time to bring your nonsense to an end.
As I previously said 90% of the shit you stated is bogus or just your piss poor opinion, and regardless of how much homework you say you’ve done, YOU STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Proof: [media=youtube]Hkk7SqUIv3o[/media] You need to study a bit more before coming through here to start shit. Fucking Troll.
Shitting on you from atop of my pedestal, (and stay outta my profile)
IAM
Not dealing with number 2, because you are just wrong there and it’s hilarious that you argue without even trying it for yourself. You’re right, you don’t need to stand to block his dive kick, but crouching makes the cross up much easier, and using the dive kick as a hit confirm is really easy if your reaction isn’t terrible, or god forbid you spaced the dive for the cross up and knew you were going to cross up before you even did it, but by golly that must be a crazy concept to you.
Cr.lk > Tatsu does beat Boxer’s EX upper, and in fact is one of Gouken’s best tools against Boxer. You would know this if you knew anything about Gouken, which you clearly don’t. Also I never once said cr.HP > ultra. If you could read you would have seen the comma, as in if you go through my fireball enjoy the frame trap into ultra punish. I also didn’t say anything about his ultra being an armor breaker. Don’t even know where the hell you got that from.
Bison’s wakeup is just as bad as Gouken’s. Teleport? Eat an option select. EX DR is the exact same thing as EX GF. EX PC is just as risky as EX Tatsu. Literally the same options as Gouken. Of course you’re going to disagree with this because you don’t know shit about Gouken, yet you keep trying to insist you do.
I never said AA was footsies, you are an illiterate moron. Cr.HP IS footsies because of it’s range and priority. It’s a great way to shut down overheads and other long range pokes like Adon’s st.HK. And cr.LK has more range than cr.MP, which is why you use it. Your limited knowledge wouldn’t know about this though.
Not going to touch 6 either, because again, you’re just wrong. A proper Gouken combo on block is always safe, because you always end with hadouken, which is +2 on block. Doing anything else in a block string is retarded and your own fault for being a moron.
j.d+MK has enough frame advantage to land cr.MP > Tatsu, so that 60 damage just turned into 278. WHOOPS, LOOKS LIKE YOU DUN GOOFED, because j.d+MK IS an overhead, is completely indistinguishable from GF Dive, and links to 200+ damage.
You still don’t know anything about the character,
Where should I start… I know!
The humble part.
GF throw catches crouching opponents. I was fucking clueless. Point taken, I apologize.
Misunderstanding on the c.lk xx tatsu. I didn’t say “it didn’t combo”. I made fun of it because “cancelling for free” sounded plain silly. Specially when it comes out so slow. Also, c.mp xx EX tatsu works just fine vs Boxer.
Still, you’re wrong about c.lk having more range than c.mp. It just looks like it.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2b36kg.jpg c.mp 1.639 (from the pivot point, to the end of the hitbox).
http://i43.tinypic.com/2vc7y35.jpg c.lk 1.593 (same thing).
It’s tricky imagery, but the numbers don’t lie. Unless I’m mistaken again, or the numbers are wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time I made a fool of myself. But according to those numbers, c.lk has indeed less range than c.mp.
But I’ll concede on the fact that you believed c.lk to have higher range. It’s an honest mistake. I used to think Ryu had a better c.mk than akuma, until I saw the hitboxes.
Unfortunately, this is where the “I was wrong” part, ends.
Dic’s EX DR is NOT the same as EX GF. Not even arguable. I can literally run away with it, and even change my air trajectory and even punish my opponent if he did an invencible move on my wakeup. Not comparable. Also, everything in the game has a counter, teleports included. Doesn’t make them any less awesome. You’re not supposed to spam them on every wakeup, but not every character can OS the teleport. Specially when it autocorrects after a crossup attempt. Trust me, it’s better than Gouken (and that wasn’t the point of my question in the first place, but something you arose).
You mentioned cr.hp as AA when mentioning footsies. My illiteracy was understandable, as you made that connection yourself.
Unfortunately, cr.hp isn’t good as a footsie for several reasons (just pick one): it has less range than c.mp, comes out 1f slower, doesn’t hit low, and worst of all, it has really bad frame advantage (though you can always cancel it, of course…).
It’s good as an AA, but it’s not a footsie tool. Every move in the game, beats other moves in the game. Almost every single normal, no matter how shitty they are, has a use. That doesn’t mean they’re good pokes all-round. My limited knowledge knows that much.
A “proper gouken combo” has to start with non-rapid fire moves, or a jump-in. Non of which are good against reversals. And you don’t know what safe is. You can be DP’d out of a c.mp xx hadouken, if c.mp is blocked. Exact same thing with c.hp. Safe combos are safe when they have no holes. His “safe strings” have holes.
Here’s the math, just in case you care:
c.mp-> 13 blockstun. Hadouken comes out in 17frames (unless, again, the data is wrong…). That means that even if you cancel c.mp on it’s first active frame (where you just gave 13f of blockstun to your opponent), he’ll still recover and have 4 frames to do a move. Basically, you can even be jab SPD’d.
c.hp -> 17 blockstun. (just in time for the opponent to block… and you’d have to do it at pointblank anyway).
Sorry for being a moron and knowing this sort of geeky shit.
Non GF Dive kick has enough frame advantage if you land it VERY deep, or with the tip of the hitbox at the longest distance possible. Also, I never said it wasn’t an overhead. I said it wasn’t worth blocking it standing. Because no one follows it up, since it sucks. It’s not viable. It’s like doing combos with j.lk or j.lp. There’s a reason why people consider Sagat’s crossup horrible. Because you have to do it VERY deep, and on block, is completely unsafe. J.lk also leads to 200+ damage. Doesn’t make it good. It’s horrible.
That divekick is the exact same thing.
Overall, you got one thing right, and I’m deeply sorry for being mistaken.
And all I had to do was read Souchan’s reply. Which was actually decent.
You two, on the other hand, babble about your main character, and you still don’t seem to get one thing right.
Oh, and iamthatiam, suck a bag a dicks.
What I said about you hasn’t changed. You’re a brat with superiority complex. Something the world definitely isn’t lacking. Specially “the internets”.
I know you like to consider this your “palace”, but clearly, you have to make a bigger effort if you want people to pay attention to the shit you say. If you’re wrong 95% of the time, it’s hard for people to take you seriously.
I don’t know about the accuracy of those numbers, but from my experience there are quite a few situations where cr.MP will whiff where cr.LK will not. Mostly in combos. For poking purposes let’s just say they are the same. EX Gouken Flip might not be able to change it’s trajectory, but it’s plenty capable of punishing invincible moves on wakeup. It has tons of invincibility on it’s own and combined with the air parry it is fully able to get you out of trouble since most characters don’t have an armor breaking move that works as an anti-air. People can still chase down an EX DR just the same. Sure not every character has an answer to it, but not every character has an answer to Gouken’s EX GF either.
I mentioned cr.HP as AA because it is. It’s expressing the ability of the move in question. Would you not explain Bison’s st.HK as AA as well even though it’s one of his best footsie moves? And not every normal has to hit low to be good in footsies. Playing footsies is using all of your normals at optimal range and effectiveness regardless of what that normal does. Shotos use cr.MK because of it’s long range and it’s ability to cancel into specials, Adon uses st.HK for it’s range and priority, Makoto uses st.MP for it’s priority and it’s ability to cancel into specials. Hitting low is a perk, it is not a must have. Also the hitstun on his cr.HP is better than Ryu’s cr.HP by a lot. (Gouken’s cr.HP -8 on block, Ryu’s cr.HP -18 on block / Gouken -4 on hit, Ryu -13 on hit)
You also can’t be reversal’d out of cr.HP > Hadou. Cr.MP > Hadou yes, but what’s to say I’m not going to bait a reversal? Theory Fighter shouldn’t take place in the discussion of a character’s ability, because everyone has answers to everything in Theory Fighter. And Then there’s that funny little concept of max range. I can do jab > jab > jab > jab > cr.MP > hadou and unless you had a special that traveled very horizontally very fast I’d be safe, regardless of what the frame data says, because the frame data doesn’t take into account spacing.
Which brings me to the next topic. The regular dive kick is used a lot in Gouken’s dive vortex because of how indistinguishable it is from his GF dive. With proper spacing you can OS safe jump with it, making sure that if it lands you follow up. It’s not hard to do at all. Knowing how to use something is just as important as what it can do.
Gouken is a lot better than people give him credit for and the big problem is the lack of knowledge about the character. If you spent more time with him and learned his ins and outs you wouldn’t have such a clear bias against him. You come to the Gouken forums and tell Gouken players they don’t know anything about Gouken. What sense does that make? I’m not saying Gouken is top tier, because clearly he isn’t, but you make him sound like he’s one of the worst characters in the game and he isn’t that either.
You asked earlier what Gouken had going for him, and that is a much easier question to answer. Damage and stun. Gouken has one of the strongest ultras in the game, an ultra combo is at least 550 damage, most end up being around or over 600, he’s one of the few characters that can do 400+ damage in the corner meterless, and he does such heavy stun that if you guess wrong on a mixup just once you’ll be stunned. He can kill about half the cast in 2 combos. Miss a throw tech and you eat an ultra for 500 damage. His comeback potential is higher than just about any other character. So he doesn’t have his GF mixup that he had in Vanilla, big deal. He’s still got everything else and then some, you just have to know how to use him.