161

Hit confirm = confirming that you landed a hit?
Not everyone needs to hit confirm off of multiple jabs like you seem to think they need to, old bean.

162

Except cr.HP is a terrible hit confirm seeing as how it’s slow, doesn’t hit low, can’t cancel at max range, and doesn’t have that great of a range in the first place. Good luck with that.

163

you can hit confirm from df dive kick, but i wouldnt try it from c.hp.
df dive kick stands them up on hit.
c.hp xx lk.tatsu whiffs on a lot of crouchers.
also, c.hp is -8 on block.

164

Just stop all of this useless talk. Make his dive kick out of demon flip an overhead again,plus the gaurd damage when gaurded, and he will be a instant asshole all over again.

165

^^ droppin knowledge…

166

Yeah, good luck getting that back. Too many XBL kiddies probably whined about it.

167

Hahahaha.

168

I can’t wait to smack up whiners on psn…oops…

169

Well, on it’s own. There are next to no way to land it for just about any character. I fully understand that Gouken EX palm, juggles ability and back throw are all extension of such a Ultra. But there are other ultras out there that do similar damage but much much easier to land without any of those back throw tricks. On top of that, most of the damage is on the third hit does make the ultra scale very poorly.

I didn’t say it is a bad ultra, but I do think it is just about right. Nothing special but nothing to brag about really.

170

I don’t get your argument at all. How exactly are you trying to land it on it’s own? There aren’t ANY ultras in the game that are easy to land without some kind of juggle or combo. The Shin Shoryu is fairly fast as far as ultras go and has tons of invulnerability that make it great for a reversal or counter. On it’s own it IS a great ultra and IS something to brag about, seeing as how it’s one of the strongest in the game and will beat out tons of moves with no viable counters to it since it armor breaks, unlike a lot of ultras, and flies into the air above a lot of attacks (this leaves you open for punishment, but it will fly over a counter).

I still don’t get why you think Shin Sho is just average.

171

In high level matches how many shin shos will you land? Not many. How about Adon fdac ultra or ryu? Or a ton of other characters that have a lot it ways to land it? Shinsho isn’t “reliable” enough. It’s awesome - but there aren’t that many ways to use it.

For an ultra it’s pretty slow - it’ll punish a sloppy jump or a horribly failed meaty attempt on wake up but what it boils down to is the fact that your Ultra almost always comes from 1 of 2 places - back throw or ex palm - and those are hardly “reliable” setups in the way dp fdac is.

It’s beefy and awesome and still good - but it sure ain’t amazing haha

172

bullcat sure dishes it out a hell of a lot.

the lack of “reliable” (whatever that means) ultra setups have more to do with gouken’s playstyle and moveset than the ultra itself. all it comes down it is that the other characters with lots of different ultra setup options have good hit confirms or a good reversal/launcher. then if gouken also gets those hit confirms and reversal/launchers, i’m sure his ultra and overall damage needs to be toned down for balance. then he won’t be the same character at all anymore.

like raun said, how many other characters can take off half your lifebar from screwing up a throw tech?

173

Bullcat dishes that ultra out like an f’ing champ! Its almost his entire game is waiting to land that mofo with a grab.

U1 is definitely the better ultra for Gouken for my play style, etc. I don’t feel its reliable enough to use against top tier players since the best setup is techable and they WILL tech it. Against guys that I barely beat or beat me bad, they rarely miss a tech attempt, making the goto setup really difficult.

The next setup is 3 EX bars while landing the EX palm, FADC (for those of you that can land all three hits without FADC, my hat is off to you) – that’s a lot of meter to burn to land that ultra (and a lot of scaling) and I don’t get many chances to land the EX palm against really good players.

Tatstu -> FADC -> U1? Yeah, that’s hittable, but how many times does normal tatsu hit? Every gouken knows this is a terrible move and its really not worth the attempt to land U1.

Corner is the last place where U1 is dangerous. Again, you need an EX palm. Is this doable? Yeah! Will I count on landing it against really good players? No.

Ultra2 is better than U1 with its setups, but the damage is poor and scaling makes it worse. I’d pick U2 more if it did more damage (full damage without holding) and a completely charged one is unblockable.

174

Maybe let me try to explains this…

Say. Ryu Ultra1, you can lands this on a few condition:

  1. early SRK
  2. SRK FADC
  3. etc

Consider this, if you do something else oppose to the SRK with or without FADC, you can’t actually do much afterward for Ryu. He can at most do an EX fireball or SRK, with does very little additional damage.

Which, in another word. U1 for Ryu open a lot of damage potential that he otherwise just won’t get.

Now let’s compare it with an ultra that is not particularly good? say Bison

That ultra can really realistically land in two way:

  1. air mk
  2. anti-air

Both of those requires some timing, but it does effectively gains him addition damage that he just won’t get at all. He can at most do a scissor kick in the same situation.

However, for Gouken, after a backthrow you can do a lot of things instead of the ultra. You can do a juggle and knock down, or a juggle and hurricane kick and mix up. They are potential damage, not real damage, but you have choices

What I’m trying to say is. For Gouken, any opportunity for him to lean that ultra also means he give up a lot of options that he can do pretty much anything he wants. While for the other character, those ultra really is their only option in those situation. They have nothing else to follow up with it. In another word. Gouken’s ultra requires huge opening. While other ultra do not require as much of an opening to do. Proportionally, it should do more damage then any non-grapple ultra in my opinion, but it doesn’t do even that. If you keep the consideration that the backthrow have 20 frame of teching window, it is even worst. In high level play people rarely misses such a tech attempt.

Therefore, in my opinion it is just an average ultra. It is certainly good for Gouken thanks to him able to create huge opening with the backthrow, but not anything outstanding. At best, it is equal to a command throw, but have no range, and is techable.

175

ID01 is on point with how useful Gou’s U1 isn’t. There are very rare situations where you can land this and I’d love to see the backthrow to U1 land against Tokido, Daigo, Momochi and Sabin on a regular basis.

Ultra1 is the better of the two ultras (ihmo). U2 is more versatile, but does way less damage. If anything U1, should do MORE damage since it scales plenty on common setups (when you can land them) and/or help backthrow out by having a different window to tech or allow the grab to be kara enhanced.

So many other characters have a better U1/2 setup than Gouken.

176

The horror. Damn the horror.

There are plenty of opportunities to use Shin Sho on it’s own. Especially in situation’s that you can buffer it or if the opponent does some EX move that is going full strength.

You can bait all types of moves that go through fireballs and buffer your Shin Sho. Blanka’s EX Roll and Balrog’s Rush Punches come to mind as things I catch often. It’s quite simple, you jump away in those matches or if you ever throw a fireball… buffer it, they slide through they get tagged. A lot of M. Bisons will try to use EX Cruscher to go through fireballs. You fake hado with mp and buffer, they try to punish and Eat Shin Sho.

It’s also a great Anti Air or when Adon Does EX Jaguar Kick.

If you want land tatsu FADC in your matches. Then go to the frame data, find the moves that have a recovery or -4 and up. Once you identify them go to training mode and practice cr. lp > tatsu FADC > Ultra.

Gouken can land after a 2 hit j. mp as an air to air move.

And he can back throw you into it or back throw and reset you into it??? And it dishes all of that pain… And don’t start talking about what happens in the corner with one EX Bar. LONG LIVE THE SHIN SHO!!! Takin Flight… That should be on the back of the EVO Shirts!!!

177

I’m in full agreement with your comment, but none of those are false on other utlra. When I say it is just average ultra, obviously, I compare it with all the other ultra. Saying it can buffer and punish people after you bait them into doing something is pointless, cause those can be punished by any other ultra.

178

So you’re arguing about Gouken’s U1 on it’s own and then you go to Ryu’s U1 from a combo? I don’t see how that is a fair argument, and Gouken as MANY more ways to land U1 than just back throw. Much like Ryu he has Tatsu FADC, Tatsu TRADE U1, EX Palm FADC, jump in of choice U1, air to air j.MP, early HP fireball dash U1 or you can even HP fireball FADC U1 for full ultra from an AA. He’s got a lot more than you’re giving him credit for. Sure, some of his combos into ultra require a bit more meter than other characters, but Gouken builds meter crazy fast anyways, and if he had really dumb easy ways to land ultra whenever he got it, he would be broken.

He doesn’t need a huge opening either, he can jab > tatsu FADC > U1. Gouken might not have the fastest jab in the game, but that doesn’t change the fact that you can land ultra from only a minor mistake. There’s also the cr.LK > tatsu FADC > U1, cr.LK > Tatsu being a MAJOR tool in matchups against Balrog and Dudley.

179

But this isn’t really what I was talking about. I was saying that Gouken gives up more opportunity compare to other character when he lands that ultra… if you read the full argument.

I will stress that I like U1. I uses it pretty much all the time. It is pretty handy, but by no means godlike. As for whether it is good or average, I’m sure many people have opinion on either side. I think it is quite debatable.

180

I have no idea what you’re talking about. What do you mean he GIVES UP opportunities by LANDING it? That makes no sense to me.