Thanks for the invite last night. I’m sorry you and I didn’t get a chance to play against each other.
It seems to me like fighting against other Goukens will end up being one of my hardest match-ups.
This is solely for the fact that I know what the character is capable of. I didn’t realize things like counter or back-throw were so damn intimidating.
Depending on what differentiates the hp kongo from the mp kongo this may not be a good thing.
If some one use’s cr. mp let’s say Ryu… Even though you can block it standing or crouching high kongo takes care of that and all of his standing bull-shit. If they’ve changed it to where Gouken has to hit hp kongo if the opponent is standing and mp kongo if the opponent is crouching, that will be a major pain in the ass. Especially when I’m trying to interrupt his block strings with kongo.
Granted most block strings are done while you are both the opponent are crouching. If they’ve made it operate that way, then it’s only a matter of time for opponents know to vary standing and crouching during their block strings to make it harder for Gouken to reversal kongo.
I hope the hp kongo is strictly for AA and low kongo is still for overheads (it kills the chun li mix up - except for grab), if 3 different kongos are a requirement to use while you and your opponent are both grounded, then it will be harder to use. If that’s the case, I’ll be saving my bars for EX Kongo. LOL
But that has me thinking now… will there be such a thing as triple kongo? LOL
I think you make a valid point, and in terms of “Gouken’s Counter Universe” for Arcade edition, this topic could probably flesh out a lot.
I’m at work/slightly too lazy to go back and check, but I do seem to remember someone saying:
1.) lp.Kongo for all attacks that hit low.
2.) mp.Kongo for all attacks that hit mid.
3.) hp.Kongo for all attacks that hit high.
Someone please correct me on my logical assumption based on the following:
This would mean that lp.Kongo would counter all moves that can hit the opponent while blocking and STANDING.
hp.Kongo would counter all moves that can hit the opponent while blocking and CROUCHING.
Thus, by virtue of what’s left, mp.Kongo would counter all moves that can be blocked via crouch AND standing block but not mutually exclusively: This would mean that mp.Kongo will ONLY counter against moves that can be blocked high AND low, but not moves that can only be blocked high or moves that can only be blocked low.
It seems then, if my assumption is the case, the logic for counter would have been redefined based on the type of attack.
My reason for this assumption is because there are certain attacks you can counter high OR low: e.g. - Chun-Li’s crouching roundhouse, which by definition alone does not corellate with the new Kongo definition.
^ I pray you are correct my friend.
It’s either that or we will get this bullshit.
low counter- will cover low and just below the waist per attack hit box
mid counter- will cover just above the waist and above the chest area per attack hit box
high counter- will cover above the chest area per attack hit box
Even though I think that is out right stupid, I’ve learned to never underestimate Capcom. And if they’ve screwed it up, we’ll have to wait for another download patch or SSF4 Hyper Arcade Edition to have it fixed.
Judging by the changes to the rest of the cast, especially with the lower tier receiving buffs, they’ve had improvements in mind.
They really buffed the lower tier characters, especially Dee Jay. He’s gonna be a problem. But fear not, the safe jump is in full effect. Knock him down and go to work LOL.
I still think Ken’s advantages on block stun is a bit broken since he has almost no reversal windows with his normals aside from step kick. His lp shit is like +4 on block and he has 3 frame start ups, and a kara grab. Fucking ridiculous. But if I catch that fucker stringing cr. lp likes it’s no tomorrow. You betta believe I’m interrupting that block string with a KONGO!!! Either that, or he will grab me or do nothing and watch me whiff and continue to punish me. FUCK YOU KEN!!!
i doubt they would nerf kongo.
the mp kongo is probably just a reactive box in between the high and low options.
most likely it is a buff that allows a one button solution to certain characters’ ambiguities.
like how you can counter chun li’s c.hk with high counter but have to use low counter for hazan shou.
mp counter might cover both.
there is no reason to nerf kongo.
even the worst players don’t care about it.
@ Raun. What ever you say is the Gospel homie. You will always be John the Baptist in my book 
I didn’t look at it that way, that’s an interesting spin on it.
-IIIIIIIIIIIIf so then it better respond exactly like dbl kongo…
raun has a goo0d idea on it as well. itd be nice for it to be as seamless as the dbl.
im looking forward to this …
id still love to be able to fadc back into a dbl kongo as of today(vs ex green hand) 
—
I know its a repeat, but again, Y’all should let me know exactly what you guys want to know about the new gouken changes and I can thoroughly test whatever list you guys compile.
Besides, what other gouken player do you guys know who lives next to an arcade getting AE in ! 1 1/2 weeks and ACTUALLY plays gouken?
HIT ME UP or I’ll keep all the new gouken technologies to myself. :smokin:
11 days and counting
You guys can make a post, a thread, PM me, or just reply here to compile the list, and I can respond in whatever medium you guys want (Txt report, video(s), whatever…)
All i ask is that if you guys do take me up on my offer, please just have one consolidated list with EVERYTHING you want to be shown or answered.
Things I want to know:
Do these combo? Confirmation is always nice.
cr.lp -> s.mk?
s.lp -> s.mk?
s.mp -> s.mk? Cancel into hk tatsu consistent?
s.mp -> cr.hp? EX Palm consistent afterwards?
s.mp -> s.mp -> cr.hk?
s.mp xx lp hadou -> cr.hk?
s.mp xx mp/hp/EX Palm
s.hk -> cr.lp? If that works, get more ambitious. I don’t think you’ll be close enough for s.mk.
See if s.hp -> cr.mp works. Doubtful.
Explain how Kongo works.
Try lp palm as AA. Does it still move forward? Can it punish EX Up Ball from Blanka on block? If it doesn’t move forward, is it a good poke at max range?
DF parry recovery similar to Akuma palm or worse? DF dive kick overhead? (lol no :shake: )
Far s.hp still do shitty 90 damage?
Great idea is there anything else that hasn’t been said already??
Will you be able to put a few vids up too?
Any volunteers to compile the list? Most of it will be in this thread.
Edit. I see I was a little late.
That’s my own personal list, not a compilation >>
I can start tallying up the list in this post, starting it up with my personal curiosities and adding anyone else that doesn’t overlap.
2.j.MP xx Air Tatsu. Just how unsafe is the HK air tatsu here, I’m curious if we have something added or if we’ll only be using LK/EX for safety reasons. Also does j.MP -> j.MP Juggle, I don’t think air tatsus juggle counter is high enough, but with luck Also have a look how the j.MP xx Air tatsu works versus a grounded opponent(can they duck immediately? does the cancel occur low enough too connect at all?)
4.The truth behind backthrow, is it scaling, is it grey damage for the whole combo?
Anything you can find out about j.HKs pursuit, like does it combo after a 2 hit j.MP?
Any noticeable changes to MP/HP/EX palm? Or did we just lose LP palm for the new comboable one?
Is any of the follwing possible? s.mp xx mp/hp/EX Palm
7.How fast is the DF Parry?(in say comparison to df palm of akuma)
Id love if you could figure out a use for c.HKs extra frame advantage, but thatll probably have to wait till we get framedata and a training room. For example:
s.hk -> cr.lp? If that works, get more ambitious. I don’t think you’ll be close enough for s.mk.
Do we have any normals(stand or crouch) that combo into LP Hadou besides HP? If we have do, do any of them allow a link into c.HK outside of the corner?
Do any of his normals link to cr. roundhouse without counterhit? (close MP should if the cl.MP ->c.HP combo is true and not because of changes to c.HP)
How well does the new lp palm work as a wake up tool? Test to see if the invincibility frames begin at start up.
Is overhead the same speed?
Can lp > mp link together for combo? (I doubt this one, if they actually gave us a chain to link combo I’ll be exstatic though :D)
14.Are there any viable frame traps with hado and lp palm now after knock down or reset? (I doubt it myself, LP Palm will have way too much startup, but using normals to cancel into it probably)
)16.Try lp palm as AA. Does it still move forward? Can it punish EX Up Ball from Blanka on block? If it doesn’t move forward, is it a good poke at max range?
DF dive kick overhead? (lol no ) (LOL no, some still expect this? :P)
Far s.hp still do shitty 90 damage? (well with a little luck the hitbox might be improved even more :D)
Does Tatsu hit crouched? *(Well it already does in some situations, but I guess some are hoping for it to be more universal)
EDIT: O dear ninjad Shall I still try to maintain a list? or will Kiku take over?
EDIT part Deux: Added Iams and Kikus desires and added some thoughts of mine in brackets. Also did some restructuring of location to avoid to much clutter, list is already huge XD
According to his response above I guess he’s not.
If you are whoever is compiling info. here’s what I want to know.
Do these things combo?
-lp/mp/lk/mk crouching and standing combo > lp hado? If they do, can you end with cr. roundhouse for the 3 hit combo or did they add more push back to eliminate the possibility outside of the corner?
-does any of his normals link to cr. roundhouse? (not including counter hit)
-how well does the new lp palm work as a wake up tool? test to see if the invincibility frames begin at start up. And if so if a srk is mashed at the same time would lp palm win out? or would who ever had the last input win the exchange?
-is overhead the same speed?
-does lp > mp link together for combo?
-Are there any viable frame traps with hado and lp palm after knock down or reset?
-cl. standking hard kick- since you can cancel it, with the added frame advantage can you combo after the cancel?
-Is Denjin Any Faster? Movement and Start up
-Is there less recovery on Gouken Flip Grab that allows time for a safe jump?
-is the link st. mp > cr. lp easier now? Hopefully it’s a 2 or 3 frame link instead of a 1 frame link.
-j. hk an untech? or it is possible to juggle it with cr. roundhouse? Same thing for n. j. hp.
-is Blanka ball punishable with lp palm or EX Palm? If not, how can we punish?
-Does EX Kongo work against armor breaking moves? (I know this is a stretch)
-Can you link any of his normals to cr. roundhouse?
-Do rapid attacks like Blankas double knee and green hand still destroy kongo?
-Is there any added leniency with the input for instant air tatsu
-Do you still have to have damn near perfect spacing to fadc tatsu > ultra? Or is this easier to do now?
I’m pretty sure Mago/Sabin/Sako didn’t give that much of a crap about Fei/Rose/Cammy back in Vanilla when they were underpowered/ill-played. Now they’re some of (if not *the[/]) best with those characters. Gouken’s not gonna be a fad. He’s gonna be a solid character. No doubt about this. And with that will come a lot of new players of all stripes. And quite a few of them will be good. Really, really good.
Choo choo. Bandwagon coming. Next stop: this forum.
Ditto on overhead speed!!!
hmm gouken is going to be good? “is there room on the wagon”? lol
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but please check if tatsu hits crouched now.
It’s always room on the wagon. it’s gonna be a lot of fun to see people jump on and then jump right the fuck off.
Regardless of his improvements, it requires an entirely different mindset to play with Gouken, this applies to high and low level players. He still doesn’t have an all purpose move, not unless they’ve given that tribute to lp palm which I seriously doubt. Personally, this is what I love about him b/c it’s no telling what the hell he is about to do. And if you are caught slipping, it’s either back grab or half of your meter is missing, FAST. LOL
Most people play with characters that have a bunch of safe moves, specials etc. Gouken doesn’t have any of that, so you’ll have to know what to use in different situations. That is going to require people to think, which in turn will make people abandon him after getting dusted off a few times b/c you can’t be brain dead and compete with Gouken. Capcom has provided charge characters, Ken, and Ryu to satisfy the non-thinking type.
One thign that draws me to Gouken is that he essentially has an answer to everything. He has no easy answers sadly, but thats what it takes to play the master.