in light of new evidence, Sol has been moved down to tier 1.5
sorta like the suburbs of tier 1, but without the tax problems
Having the tools doesn’t make a character top tier. How his/her tools relates to every other character determines tier placing. The top tier is Slayer, Millia, Faust and Eddie because they all pretty much hang together, with no one really exceeding the others. What makes them top tier, and Sol, Johnny and I-no not, is the fact that they can’t hang with the big 4 evenly. They have to work their asses off more than one of the 4 to compete. THAT is why they are upper-mid tier.
What do you counter it with if you don’t have a DP? I tried F+P but I keep getting that goddamn clash effect where nothing happens.
the only way i really counter it is jump IB or stay on the ground and IB, depending on the position, then throw, er it doesnt work all the time though, so there must be a better counter
dood… just dash under it and grab followed by a combo… its HELLA easy to counter, or yu could whip out a quick 412369H.
hell ya johnny for example can just dash under and do whatever he fuckin wants, so can alot of the others
i detect sarcasm.
If you’re dashing under it, then the Sol player is honk honk abusing it, and using it at the wrong fucking range.
Saying that Sol can’t apply pressure without GF FRC is bullshit. Crouching Slash, motherfucker. +3 frame advantage. If you block that shit, there is little you can do. Sol has standing K (fastest normal in the game), so he can just run in and plug you. If he happens to be out of range for that poke, he can just 6P, which will not only go through any counter-poke, but will net him a CH and a free combo (and contrary to what some people think, Sol has some nasty combos that don’t involve Dloop). If you try to jump away, then dash K owns you again (his best anti air, free combo if it hits, block means free pressure for Sol). Or he can just dash jump and airthrow you. And if you just sit there, he can run up and command grab you. So let’s look at your situation: you flinch wrong and you get CH for major damage, or you sit there and do nothing and get tossed around like a fucking ragdoll for the rest of the match. If that isn’t pressure, then I don’t know what is.
It should also be noted that a lot of these mixups (plus quite a few others) can also be applied to his crouch P and his crouch K (crouch P leaves you at +2, crouch K leaves you at zero). You do the math. Fun fun fun for all!
You say that you don’t play Sol, and you prove it by all your incorrect statements (the fact that you name his super as one of his best moves says it all, cuz he doesn’t need it). Yeah, Johnny does beat Sol, that’s because Johnny is his counter character, genius (Johnny covers all of his entry points). Sol has more good matchups against more characters, which is why he ranks higher than Johnny (aside from Slayer and Millia, Johnny is pretty much Sol’s only bad matchup). Go watch some good Japanese matches of multiple Sols and tell me that all Sols are the same.
The chart has a glitch. It says Sol loses to I-no w/ a 4, but I-no vs Sol is a 5. Or is my chart screwed up?
Probably a glitch. I don’t see how I-no is advantaged versus Sol.
Problem is if you can’t dash under the Bandit Revolver (except maybe Zappa). The two moves start out the same, so by the time you can tell which move it is, you won’t be able to punish Sol should you get to dash under.
According to the 3 month old or so Arcadia chart it’s a 6-4 matchup in favor of I-no.
I don’t know much about I-no but I’m guessing it’s because her air game is considered to be better than Sol’s. I bet she could air throw him out of his bandit revolver. Although I haven’t tested it out, I’m willing to bet that her projectile will go through Sol’s gun flame. And if that’s the case, Sol doesn’t really have a good answer to it.
And then, of course, there’s all her other stuff. Super = Free damage. And so on…
But then again, I haven’t really seen an excellent I-no, so I’m really just speculating.
i’ve seen some REAL good I-no vids
basically she can net 70% life combos with her ChemLove FRCs off a dashing kick (which happens pretty often with her crazy mix-up powers)
I still don’t see why I-no is 6-4 w/ Sol, after all, she loses 6p,h 95% of the time due to some strange glitch in collision detection.(The only reason I can come up with) I don’t see any great blessings for her either. Maybe she can just sit back and fireball all day. Who knows.
On the topic of Johnny as top tier, he is not because there are some things he simply lacks. All the top tier hav the big damage options(usually easily done or difficult but very rewarding), but they also have other things. All have a great anti-air. (Slayer = invul throw;214p,k : Eddie = 6p;2h : Millia = 6p,2h,air combo : Faust = k) Eddie’s damage also happens to be unblockable if you get knocked down and he can rush very wel in order to get that knockdown. Millia has relaunches that can be done with no tension and can build meter very easily. They also knockdown which leads to her awesome mix-up game off of disc. Plus, she’s got mobility. Faust can crouch under damn near anything, has easy and damaging combos, and can pressure from hal-screen with very little lag. (Reminds me of Johnny. =) Slayer has a touch-of-death, invul punishing moves, and an answer to everything. Together with his massive damage makes for a very good character. Johnny has the damage, but not quite the mobiity, has n really good mix up aside from throws and TK Ensenga, and has a limited supply of his best move. Although the one-hit ensenga and bacchus sigh set-ups do help, he’s still not quite on even ground because the top four have answers to it all while it is not vice-versa. IE: He has to eat Eddie rush/unblockables, has no wake-up other than super to stop Millia’s crazy mix and prolly couldn’t catch her if he tried, gets beat out of everythng by d-step and BDC mappa from Slayer plus his pokes are telegraphe dand laggy if whiffed(leads to teledash,touch-of-death), Faust can crouch under just about all his main pokes and can pressure just as well.
And Magus, you got that reversed. Testament is Edie rushdown bait. I should know, tragic eats him alive. ^-^ (This is STen from GCC/#ggxx BTW)
Well said STen. I think I have a pretty damn good I-no but I still think Sol has the upperhand in this matchup. 6P->H misses damn near everytime on Sol forcing I-no to rely on 6P->S which occasionally leaves you with the far slash that is not jump cancellable. I-no doesn’t get blown out, but she has to work harder than Sol for the win.
As for Johnny being part of the top tier, I’d say he’s not. He’s pretty close though. He has a lot more tools than you give him credit for including one of the best 6P in the game.
The chart is glitched then. It says 4 on Sol’s chart, but on I-no’s it’s a 5. Probably just a misplaced number, so I’m gonna stick with the 5-5 (makes more sense).
can you gimme a link to this arcadia chart?.. ive never seen it before…
I posted the chart as an attachment on page 14 of this thread.
As everyone’s been saying recently, there is an error (at least 1) on it. Sol vs. Venom and Sol vs. I-no should be reversed. I think it was supposed to be Venom 6-4 over Sol with Ino and Sol going 5-5.
$1? Where the hell do you play ?
Here are some charts to go over. I posted them on GCC awhile ago, but just in case some of you missed it, or don’t visit the site.
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart.txt
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart-midtier.txt
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart-nobottom.txt
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart-notop.txt
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart-top10.txt
http://www.tekken.net/xx/charts/chart-top4.txt
These are with numbers that actually add up (I believe). I forgot who I asked when it came out, but supposedly these are the correct #'s.
As far as the I-No vs Sol matchup, I think it could really go either way. If he doesn’t have enough meter for FRC (which, he almost always has), he can’t throw a Gun Flame during a pressure pattern. I-No can jump over, S -> QCF+S for a free combo. Depending on the range that it hits, she can even follow-up. This can be done after FD’ing a couple pressure hits before the GF is canceled into. As noted tho, I think most of the time he will have the necessary 1/4 meter.
Unlike most characters, I-No can air throw Sol out of almost anything. Whether it be a air dash attack (like P, or S, or H), a missed GF (she can actual go after him and air throw it), burst (she’s best burst throw in game IMO)… pretty much whatever. Actually, I have seen I-No air throw the Gun Flame… right as it came out! Obviously this would take some sweet timing, but I’m sure a top-level I-No player would have this option in the arsenal.
I-No can FD during her ground dash which is used a lot after a knockdown -> Note pressure. This is good to know since Sol has the option to DP on wakeup. If no DP, I-No can land and go low, land and redash and try to mix it up again… this time protected by the Note that is pinning Sol down. Also, since the note is pinning, Sol can’t grab an empty dash (though it’s not like many players would try to grab during the note). If Sol decides to DP on wakeup vs the Note, and the I-No was FDing, it’s a free Chem Love, or air dash back and punish (air throw, or combo depending on range).
It’s true that I-No can’t really do the standard f+P-H chain vs Sol, but that doesn’t mean she can’t damage. She can still do f+P-S and go from there. I’ve recently found that it’s best to keep Sol down vs I-No… so in a combo opportunity, I won’t go for the dj variations. Instead, I’ll try to finish with a low Chem Love, then land and go back into the Note pressure games.
The match seems even to me, except in the fact that Sol has an easier time executing. I don’t think that I-No’s complexity hurts her at the highest level… while at a lower/intermediate level, Sol has the upper hand (which is true vs a lot of characters).
ben