It’s not a dumb question. I usually input the throw as im coming down. While Rog’s arm is retracting.
O btw guys. If you manage to land a st.fr on Oni as he is going for a swipe and it registers as a counter hit, you can combo into super.
you can practice the timing by just doing a jump-in fierce and hitting throw at the last possible moment before you land. As long as you don’t hit anyone (you whiff the j.hp), the throw should come out. That’s the timing you’ll need for buffering the throw when you jump-in. The buffer isn’t really the hard part imo, the hard part is the safe jump lol.
Best character to practice this on is against Abel in the training mode. What you want to do is set him to playback him to doing an ex roll on wakeup. If you do it right, you’ll whiff the j.hp and you’ll grab his ex roll.
Strategies Against Yun and Yang
Yun: His rush down is a pain to deal with and his normal(s) out prioritize most of yours. But rog can do okay against him because he has some tools to avoid some of yun’s pressure
- jab anti air his dive kicks: this is crucial because it’s his most efficient way to get in. Other normals can be used, but there is too much risk as you can get stuffed or hit on recovery. Headbutt works at the right angle too, but a good yun will avoid jumping when you have down charge. Ex armor punches work as well, but it ends up just avoiding the mixup half the time which is still good for you.
- Know what you can punish
- TAP to avoid ex lunge: this is a pretty neat trick balrog has to avoid yun’s ex lunge mixup. If you anticipate an ex lunge start storing tap and release it right before it hits you. I recommend FADC’ing the tap for safety because you are left at -2 at a point blank range which is risky against a character with 3 frame normals, or you can risk it and start your offense after it.
- only overhead follow up that works on the twins is a sweep. You can fadc to extend the combo
- whiff palm can be punished with dash ultra/super at a certain range
Feel free to contribute more
Yang: More footsie based and has a pretty linear offense so this matchup isnt too difficult minus the command grab
- jab anti air his dive kicks: yang has a slower divekick so its much easier to do it
- respect the low forward range: treat it like ryu and ken’s low forward except slightly slower. Easier to whiff punish
- Dont jump when you are about to be chipped out: Yang’s dp kick tracks your location so jumping will let him hit you for free. Still need to see what rog can do to beat it out because it has little invincibility.
- watch out for frame traps: the go to frame trap for yang is jab into cl fierce into light rekka. Pretty scary since his jab is as good as your’s.
- punish unsafe rekkas: any rekka after the first is most likely unsafe
Feel free to contribute
reposting since it’s all pertinent. I’ve got a buddy who’s a really good Yang player, so i might have a bit more insight for that matchup in the near future. Also going to be in the lab ALL day tomorrow 
. Got a new spreadsheet for punishes that’ll probably have some scary outcomes.
Yang’s HK dive kick appears to have some invic. There’s more talk of it on the Jap forums than here. I’ll see if I can find some details.
Yang also has a glitch where the majority of his body (except essentially a sliver on his back) is immune for up to 16 frames if Yang presses no buttons on his wake-up (that means attacks or directions). This glitch occurs when Yang is knocked down onto his stomach, rather than his back. All character’s have a face-down knockdown if they FA3 and don’t combo afterwards. I don’t know if Balrog has a face-down knockdown; you might wanna test that yourself.
yeh, there was a bit of a convo in the sf4ae frame data thread. There are only a couple of throws that leave you face down. I don’t think this is something Balrog really has to worry about…unless you drop a crumple stun combo. Non of Balrog’s normal throws are face down though, although U2 does. (something to add to the list to test.)
Alright, i’ve finished testing most of my ideas out on the Majority of the cast through super, haven’t gotten to the AE characters since i want to spend a lot more time since i’m not very familiar with their moveset. But i’ve updated the spreadsheet with new followups to overhead, as well as added an FADC punish sheet which is good to know as well.
Here’s a quick list of notable finds:
[LIST]
[]linking OH to lp/mp.hb works crouching and standing on Dudley where as before we could only use cr.hk, we can now use lp.hb which will REDUCE damage scaling towards the end of the match (but it’s still less damage than the cr.mp xx hp.hb follow-up).
[]OH xx lvl2 FA works on: Abel, Akuma, Blanka, C. Viper, Dhalsim, Honda, Gouken, Sakura, Zangief, Guy, Juri and Oni.
[]Juri’s OH followups changed, either her hitbox was modded or i had them completely wrong, most efficient followup is cr.hk.
[]FA resets are complete, they are all done on standing opponents, crumple stun on crouching opponents has a faster animation. If you’re trying the max distance cr.mp xx lk.smash reset, it works if you have your back in the corner, you lvl2 backdash, and then cr.mp xx lk.smash
[]All FADC tests are pretty accurate, for the most part all of them were done at point blank distance and were FADC’d on the first active frame, although that shouldn’t really affect the math any. (i’ll add a spoiler for a descrip of the frame math behind it). -8f is pretty much only super activated with P and holding K, -9f is ultra 1 activated with kicks and held, and 11 is ultra 1 activated with punches. There are other punishes as well i tried to note them as I found them.
[]Balrog’s lp.dash low FADC backdash is the ultimate getaway tool, it was only punished on block with Chun’s hk super (in the corner). stupid pushback on that attack.
[/LIST]
Spreadsheet link
Explanation FADC and recovery
Spoiler
I’ll explain two things: how frame data works for FADC and how frame data works for recovery.
When you Focus attack dash cancel. You cancel your remaining recovery into the dash plus one or two frames for the focus attack. This is not focus attack canceling release and then dashing. So for example, look at Balrog’s lp.OH it has 5A and 21R, is -5 on block and +10 on hit. Thus if you hit an opponent they go into 35f (4A+21R+10f advantage) of recovery while you only go into 25f of recovery. If they block, you still go into 25f (4A + 21R) of recovery, but they only go into 20f of recovery (4A+21R-5f advantage). So if you FADC backdash, you replace your remaining active frames and recovery frames with your dash animation. Balrog’s backdash is 22f while his forward dash is 18f. So if Balrog FADC backdashes an lp.OH, he replaces his 25f of recovery with his backdash (22f), so he recovers 3f faster and creates space in exchange for two bars. The opp still goes into the same recovery though. This is generally what happens, there’s some frame data magic that occurs and the actual data is give or take a couple of frames, still haven’t found jay wangs explanation of calculating FADC frame data.
Ok and for the second explanation about recovery. Some opponents have attacks that have a crap ton of active frames, and those can be done at a distance and the actual advantage or disadvantage on block changes drastically. So in general when any attack comes into contact with a player and they block, they go into the same blockstun as if they got hit with the first active frame. Each later active frame that you get hit with eats into the opponents recovery, so when they recover from the attacks animation, they’re more positive than normal.
For example, think about Bison’s ex.pc and Sagat’s TK
lk.Tiger Knee: 14A 3R, -10 (block)
ex.Psycho Crusher: 23A 12R, -16 (block)
Thus if Sagat spaces the knee just right so it hits you on the last active frame he can be at most +7 and if Bison spaces it just right, at most he can be +3.
My math may be off by a bit, but the concept still stands. These are another kind of meaty.
U1 is 8f when holding KKK. same as super. And you don’t have to hold K for super to be 8f, just activate with K. test with Gief mp.Green Hand.
I’m new to fighters and decided to main Balrog. I’ve got a few games played on xbox live with him so far and I’m at 500+ PP and 600+ PP so I know that I have a very long way to go. I watched every tutorial I could find so far, so I am familiar with hit priority when it comes to plinking, cancels, if you cancel a normal you cant link a special out of that combo, stuff like that etc.
I have a TON of trouble against characters like Ken, Ryu, Akuma, and Dhalsim that I can think of off the top of my head. After I TAP a few of their projectiles it doesn’t work because they expect it and I have no idea how to get in after that. I played a Dhalsim earlier today that would fireball and then yoga sniper me as I TAP’d or tried to get in and I couldn’t get in on him when he started doing that.
Are there any techniques I should start using against projectile characters besides TAP and slowly walking up while blocking?
Another quick question, I was watching some ice0age replays and I’m pretty sure I saw him c.hp Ibukis knives and his punch parried the projectile away… did I see that correctly and if so does this work for any other matchups?
I apologize if this is not the correct thread to ask these questions, but I would appreciate any help/pointers you guys could throw my way
TAP through fireballs is punishable as hell. Ways rog can get in on fireballers:
- Jump forwards. You have to know the right range to try. A decent player won’t throw fireballs from that range, so not really an option
- TAP through fireballs. Predictable, punishable, unsafe as fuck. For every followup fireball you counterhit, you’re going to eat ten punishes. Not really an option
- Headbutt through fireballs. Recovery on hb is ridiculous, you’re going to get your lunch eaten for this. From fullscreen you can do it for meter occasionally. From point blank you can stuff fireballs, but you aren’t going to see them at that range really, so not really an option either
- Focus absorb xx dash. Dashing forwards closes the gap but can be baited and punished, dashing back keeps you safe, both generate ultra meter. Decent option, don’t get predictable, watch out for multihit projectiles.
- Neutral j.fierce. Keeps things right where they were. Good option, watch for varying fireball speeds so you’re not landing on one, neutral j.fierce can be steered left or right a tiny bit.
- EX Dash anything. Goes right through a fireball, closes the gap, and depending on what you did can carry them to the corner, create a hard knockdown, start a combo to ultra, etc. Very baitable, very vulnerable to multihit projectiles. Still occasionally useful.
- Block and walk. Failsafe option. Don’t be scared of that chip. Block, move an inch, block again, move an inch. They’ll either walk themselves to the corner or get frustrated and come to you. Now you’re in there.
You have a metric fuckload of options when it comes to fireballers. Mix it up and stop using TAP.
edit: Ibuki’s kunais can be hit out of the air. Any char can do it.
knobbonk said it about right, walking and blocking is almost the best and safest way to move in on a projectile character like Sagat and Guile, ex.dashes, TAP and headbutt are really unsafe because of their recovery and speed. My first article was on avoiding fireballs, and although i’m in the process of rewriting it, the old one is still kinda useful. Its on the front page on the game mechanics post, doesn’t have a video atm.
I had an idea the other night when i was practicing the focus resets, and that was finding other situations in which we could land a meaty. So i was practicing this reset against Dudley: lvl 2 fa, cr.lp, cross-under, meaty cr.lp. I was trying to get the timing right so i could do the jab O/S sweep, but I couldn’t get it, but one time i did get cr.lp, cr.hk to combo non CH. so it’s possible, just i don’t think it’s possible to get an automatic setup off of that kind of invincible recovery with Balrog. I was also playing with meaty OH, 1) same reset with delayed (not cancelled), lp.OH should be safer on block or 2) AA cr.hp delayed lp.OH. I think it’s useful during the first half, but useless once they get ultra/super.
@Talent Sh0w, search for ibuki, there’s a big post i got from Dafro about his finds on Ibuki.
Sweet, thanks a bunch for the replies and help guys I appreciate it
Any luck on that mate?
a wee bit, not as far as punishes go though, i’m learning little by little. The Yang matchup is definitely more fun. It’s just weird though, a lot of his moves look exactly like Yun’s, but they’re really different, like his palm versus Yuns and comparing the dive kicks. Yang can FADC his dp’s though.
Right now, the only thing i can say about the matchup is that I very seldom get super, I find myself using meter much more often in that match versus the Yun matchup. Yang’s alot like Fei, but he has better tools (especially with super). Like with super and Ultra 2, yang can hit the OH and combo into U2, or hit you with crouching short and combo into U2, making a really effective high/low mixup if he’s got you in a block string. Also because the shadows attack in the same space after you hit him, it’s unlikely you’ll hit him clean out of any attack from super, it’s pretty scary. I think that’s one thing that ex.HB might not beat :[, you also can’t ex.dash through any of his attacks when he has super activated, but i do think it’s really good for any type of armor cancel into an invincible special lik ex.hb, super, or ultra, since it’ll give you a bit of extra time so your invincibility frames will cover the active frames of the shadows, but he probably is STILL be able to block in time.
edit: I think in the end U2 really changes that match up, since yang has really good Rekka pressure, but needs to be really close to mixup. also his command throw isn’t as rangy as Yuns, after two shorts, yun’s still in range, while yang can only command throw after one. So he’s a bit like makoto in that you can use jabs to distance yourself out of command throw range.
I know this sounds odd, but a lot of stuff that you use on Dictator will work on Yang. Yang is similar in the fashion that he goes for safe pressure via pokes xx rekkas, has a decent “teleport,” and so on. But, he has a DP and can combo into his ultra.
Treat Yang’s EX teleport like Abel’s roll. It’s hit and projectile immune, but throwable. Similar OSes will work here.
Yang’s DP can only be FADC’d on the first hit (it hits twice quickly; doesn’t naturally armor break) and isn’t airborne until his strike invic frames wear off (~5f).So, you could throw Yang’s DP on start up (in theory, I guess); obviously the roll kicks have no invic. during the roll, so just jab that shit.
Yang’s EX grab is only slightly shorter than Yun’s (1.2 as compared to 1.3, IIRC). But, Yang has stupid ass jabs and strongs that set up well for tick command throws. When I play against Yangs, I treat his command throw more like Fei’s; here’s a small thread that might have more information.
Yang cannot combo off of overhead, even CH. I think CH overhead leaves Yang at +2; probably worth mentioning.
Shadows cannot make unblockable set-ups. The shadows hit mid, and they hit 10f and 20f after Yang’s original attack. But, against most characters, you wouldn’t see Yang using SE like Yun uses GJ; Yang just benefits too much from FADCes. Small thread about how Yang’s super works.
Palm works a tad different with Yang; I think we’re just getting details on palm. But, what it does well is it makes good frametraps (i.e, cross-up j.mk, s.hp xx mp palm) and offers good punishes (FA3, backdash, ex palm, mp palm, ex roll kick (600 stun)). But, we’re getting some better palm combos with Yang in the Yang forums; it’ll probably end up being more of a frametrap tool or a comboing into U2 tool. We’ll see, though.
I fucking hate the Rog match-up, though. It’s a personal demon. =p
alright, i’m testing akuma’s safe jump demon palm O/S and i think i’ve figured out how to beat them. So he’s pretty much got these setups:
[LIST]
[]Safe Jump Demon Palm O/S buffered sweep
[]Safe Jump Demon Palm O/S delayed sweep
[]Safe Jump Demon Palm O/S demon (super/ultra)
[]Safe Jump Demon Palm O/S U2 (teleport cancel or raw U2)
[/LIST]
Okay, Balrog’s three tools against this O/S are U2, headbutt (all strengths), and TAP. Obviously ex.dashes lose (armor break) and all non-ex dash punches get CH, nor can Balrog use any normals. Also Ultra 1 and Super don’t work. All of the option-selects beat backdash, no matter what. So buffered sweep occurs as soon as the attack whiffs, so it loses to lp.hb, but low profiles, mp/hp/ex headbutt, it also beats TAP. But if he does delayed sweep, then it allows him to block/react to lp.hb, but loses to mp/hp/ex and TAP.
O/S demon loses to headbutt, period. O/S U2, beats all of balrog’s options if it’s activated, depending on the safe jump, lp.hb might still win (need some more testing).
But it seems that balrog can beat the setup (not the O/S) with a non-reversal U2. Because demon palm doesn’t have a really big hitbox, it doesn’t ACTUALLY hit meaty per say, not like say boxer’s meaty cr.lp. So there’s a handful of frames, maybe 2-3 where you’re getting up and you’re note being hit by the palm (yet). so non-reversal U2, will cause him to land during your single invincible frame, and then when he’s recovering you can grab him. Reversal U2 loses, since his hand goes through you by that point.
I’m gonna do some more research once i find a setup that’s consistent, keep in mind that the safe jump beats all of balrog’s reversals on his own, this is just how you can punish the option-select.
Updated the Rose matchup. Here’s the Dee Jay matchup, it’ll be here until I restructure the front page, think i’m being to verbose (again…).
a setup to throw m bison’s ex/non ex psycho crusher would be nice
afaik you can’t t hrow bison out of the ex.pc startup. What you’re looking for is meaty throw, just knock dictator down, walk up to him, and throw him when he’s totally upright. I was trying to find a setup for meaty throw, but i think the grabbable hitboxes are too weird to have one that would work for every character (or even most characters). Like Balrog, usually if you try to meaty throw balrog just as he’s upright, you’ll pass right through him, a lot of people have that kind of trouble with Boxer, Dudley, Zangief, Juri etc. But if you’re trying non-ex, that should be pretty easy, you’ve got about 10f or so to grab him if he does reversal pc.
Just record balrog sweeping, then walking up and throwing, and try to reversal pc as dictator. Should help you figure out the timing.