"Gettin' that Bike $!" AE Balrog Match-up Thread

[D-chong]

auto correct ultra blocked psycho crushers, full hits land

[3nigmat1c]

true, but it really depends on WHEN you get hit by the PC, auto-correct ultra works when he hits you point blank since he passed through you, sweep works about mid-range, and if he hits with the tip its a frame trap since he’s positive. There’s a blurb or so about punishes for PC on the matchup i believe. if not i’ll post it up, i remember someone going through the trouble and making a utub video.

[3nigmat1c]

Here’s a quick note on the makoto match, since mid-screen Balrog doesn’t have a safe way to maintain pressure when she’s backdashing on wakeup, you can safe jump O/S fwd dash and maintain pressure and keep advantage, this will lose to ex.chop (obv), but they’ll be less likely to use it if you’ve used meaty throw a couple of times which Makoto doesn’t have an answer to outside of backdash, super, and ultra.

[3nigmat1c]

I had an idea that may be a good thing or a bad thing. I was just going to do a dump of all of the notes I’ve collected on all the characters (esp for those i haven’t posted matchup info). Where I have a useful opinion on a matchup i’ll put a quick note in there as well. Eventually i’ll update this post with all of that info. Think of it as a really rough list of idea about character (this is usually the stuff I work with before i put a matchup together). May inform some people of stuff they don’t know or get someone to look a bit harder at a matchup and find something we don’t already know. the majority of this hasn’t been verified and is just ideas from reading other character forums and watching a match or two.

Juri

Spoiler

I think Juri and gouken have the best fireball zoning in the game. In general, i think you want to push juri into the corner and pressure her, always be aware of her counter, since she can teleport in the air and move out of the corner (her trajectory isn’t static like teleports). It has armor though so you can break it, but it will defensively beat safe jump and meaties. Don’t try to FADC her fireballs, just push her into the corner, you might want to risk it on ex fireballs since they have so much pushback. She’s has better mobility than guile even though her walk speed is slow. Beware trades with her d+hp (whatever kick goes down), she gets UKD on trade.
[LIST]
[]Test safe jump buffered throw, should beat all over her wakeup options.
[]Meaty throw owns everything but super and ultra? (an ex.pinwheel?) (she should be able to beat meaty throw with ia.mp xx dive kick)
[]Maybe safe jump O/S throw?
[][S]has a fireball that hits low[/S]
[/LIST]

Oni

Spoiler

Don’t let Oni zone you mid range, absorb and backdash mid screen to get ultra, so it isn’t so safe. DO NOT JUMP over fireballs, f+hk puts you back at 3/4 screen. He can zone well, it’s just that other characters can do it better. impatience will make you lose the match, it’s a lot like the honda Match, but his fireballs suck IMO, dash ultra is a possibility.
[LIST]
[]Can throw oni out of his fireball and ex.swipe, oni can’t FADC blocked DPs
[]lk.swipe safe on block, mp/hp jab punishable, ex is cr.mp punishable. auto correct u1 swipe.
[/LIST]

Evil Ryu

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]His red fireball has a lot of recovery, its fodder for armor cancels as well as tap and the three hitter can be focus absorb backdashed at certain ranges.
[/LIST]

Chun-Li

Spoiler

Chun matchup is a bitch, don’t let her bully you with super, at every opportunity, try to FORCE her to burn meter with ex.sbk, that’s the only thing you can bait her into using. So every opportunity you have to jump in safely, use it. And even unsafe ones are good to use to you force her to burn meter and reset the distance. She can zone with kikoukens, but without super, once you get in the sweet spot, she has to think more. Sweet spot is almost max jab distance, where she can still hit you with sweep, but you can walk out of it in a sense.
[LIST]
[]Does lp.ds FADC backdash evade Chun’s Super? (no, well kinda but not really, it’s a terrible idea for a bait)
[]Find an FADCable normal/special with short recovery to bait out super.
[*]-ex.ru, st.mk, st.lk all work, give tooserius credit
[/LIST]

Boxer

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]test if late crouch-teching will stuff non-ex headbutt and tech throws. This does work, use meaty cr.lp auto setup with the crouch-tech and you’ll get a similar effect, but it’ll lose to lp.hb and get beat by ex.hb. (balrog’s short at least).
[/LIST]

Fei Long

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Verify O/S U2 http://shoryuken.com/f273/option-select-thread-decimate-your-opponent-261152/
[]Fei long crossup j.mp
[*]Super/Ultra don’t break armor after invincibility, but can get a CH to break armor, it’s weird.
[/LIST]

Seth

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]reversals for st.hp (lp.ds, even at a distance)
[]Weirdness with U2 and jump-in headbutt in the corner (think this was a super only issue, since it had full body invincibility for 88f)
[]Verify the range at which you can jump over a boom and NOT be caught with super when landing. (I think hard punch has a longer range for the vacuum effect, but a longer startup)
[]If he traps you with boom to super, if you empty jump can you always block it? (no)
[]Seth chip meaty sb to U2, he has 11f of invincibility, non-reversal U1/Super should beat it. EX.hb probably gets low profiled by U2
[]See if you can beat U2 point blank with Ultra 1 if activated after the freeze (does it get low profiled?)
[/LIST]

Gouken

Spoiler

Gouken is really similar to Oni in his zoning. When AA, do moves that don’t have a lot of recovery, in case he does palm. On wakeup, ex.hb will break armor, this is what you do in the event he attempts to do a meaty parry. Otherwise, just block, his vortex is weird, but it involved a shit-ton of sweeps.
[LIST]
[]jab his demon flip esp ex
[]normal/super cancels versus his counter, who wins? (Gouken…)
[]Do not jump over his uncharged fireballs he can get a free aa with lp. Palm
[]Does his flip to grab connect while crouching?
[/LIST]

Cody

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Confirm that meaty jab is safe from ex.cu if hit on the 2nd A frame.
[]test f+mp ground buffer into U2 for balrog’s backdash.
[]How to deal with crack kick tick throw
[]check ex.rock, hammer hook as a frame trap (is it throwable?)
[]zonk/ex.zonk FADC backdash ultra punishable?
[]find TKD setup for CH cr.mk after headbutt or smash.
[]Cannot fadc backdash his jump ins because of cr.hp and st.mp
[]U1 recovers FAST (if you jump over it, it’s already recovered)
[/LIST]

C.Viper

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]If you TAP to avoid a cross-up burning kick can she ex.tk to catch you during recovery?
[]Punishes for ex.tk
[]Test throwability of hp.tk
[]Viper can Kara Cancel st.hp
[/LIST]

Ibuki

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]FA back/forward dash Vortex, block depending on where she is.
[]Can jab her illusion dash, will auto-correct.
[]Can hk.dash around Balrog U1 and do U1? How many frames is hk.dash?
[]Is she considered grounded during the command dash?
[*]crossup non crossup kunai has to do with super jump/normal jump? look for screen pan. Haven’t tested it, but this was told to me from an ibuki player. The delay might determine whether she lands in front or behind since she’s got four wakeup kunai possibilities (Land in front/behind, crossup/non-crossup)
[/LIST]

T.Hawk

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Is his cr.hk more like Guiles cr.hk or Guys cr.mk?
[]What normals are used to buffer into SPD?
[*]j.mp only hits air-to-air
[/LIST]

Dan

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Verify funnies with U1 and U2
[]Verify if his crouch taunt can stop anything
[]Verify lk dan kick cross-up in corner (crouching?)
[]FA backdash punishable by throw? (in super)
[/LIST]
[LIST]
[]Punish non-lk Dan kicks with U2, credit Jav1ts.
[]airborne dan kicks don’t break armor, Ultra can be focused after invincibility frames at range.
[]Time to get paid! M.Bison (Boxer) consolidated Match Up Thread
[]low profile dan kicks? Gouken can do it with cr.lk? maybe do it in the middle of his block string?
[/LIST]

Sagat

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]http://shoryuken.com/blogs/emblemlord/sagats-angry-charge-1966/
[]Don’t TAP through the Fast tiger shots becaues he can kara ex. and hit you
[/LIST]

Dee Jay

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Can U1 ex.fb on reaction
[]cr.hk goes under dash punches
[/LIST]

Rose

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]if rose activates U2 and jumps you can AA jab her to kill the orbs.
[]Can she tick throw with cr.mp? or only cr.mp, cr.mp, staggered soul spiral? can she only tick throw with slide.
[]If rose tick jabs after activating U2, can she not tick jab and chase a backdash mid-screen?
[]Max distance slide is out of cr.lp range.
[]check to see if her u1 hits airborne opps
[]how to Air to Air her j. Hp?
[/LIST]

Blanka

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Does his U2 break armor? (Since he can chip you to death with U2 full screen)
[]Can Blanka coward crouch into electricity as a valid anti-air when he has no meter?
[/LIST]

Akuma

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Look into akumas invincibility on his dp and compare to other shotos, ex.ds doesn’t seem to work.
[]Can he only cancel active frames of normals into demon? -no (http://sf4answers.com/questions/126/how-do-you-cancel-akuma-s-cr-hk-or-cr-mk-into-the-cr-mk-into-the-raging-demon/286#286)
[*]Test headbutt (all strengths), and TAP against demon palm O/S sweep and raging demon. (I know O/S U2 beats all headbutts)
[/LIST]

Yun

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Ex.ru to punish dive kicks -rainscape
[]When are his combos into shoulders not block strings? (st.mp xx shoulder is not)
[]Try to nj.hp yuns dive kick when hes neutral jumping to attemtp to space and dive kick
[]TC not a block string from hp to b+hp , like st. Lp to st. Mp
[/LIST]

Yang

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]all rekkas but 1st lp and 1st ex should be jab punishable on block (possibly U2 punishable).
[]What is balrogs answer for cl.mk jc dive kick?
[*]check to see if balrogs ex.hb can beat yangs dive kick after activating his super.
[/LIST]

Cammy

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]Can Dive kicks cross up in the corner?
[]test out st.lp, st.lk for stopping dive kick pressure.
[/LIST]

Adon

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]test offensive crouch block for avoiding fuzzy guard nj.mk instant overhead
[]Check to see if doing an immediate cr.lp after blocking the j.mk works on your hitbox.
[]Backdash beats every wakeup dp except lk?
[]His dash ducks under like gens so it can avoid some attacks.
[/LIST]

Dudley

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]Check out infinite versus balrog st.lp xx lp.mgb
[/LIST]

Ryu

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]If you Max distance TAP and Ryu does Ultra Late, can it hit after his invincibility frames and allow you to cancel into Super and beat it clean? (can’t cancel into super, but if he has only a little life left, you can hit him for the win BEFORE the U1 connects.
[]You can TAP to avoid his tatsus and hit him during airborne recovery for juggles into super/U1 (this isn’t ryu specific, it’s shoto specific, for the most part)
[/LIST]

Makoto

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]she can cancel her backdash? (http://shoryuken.com/f338/choke-artists-guide-choking-movelist-combo-thread-update-ae-changes-228987/index15.html)
[]http://shoryuken.com/f338/hitting-below-belt-new-makoto-strategy-guide-ver-2-a-261585/#post10046087
[]walk out of karakusa, ex.hb doesn’t trade with her air kicks while non-ex always will, frame trap with jab st.hk to beat fadc dash forward karakusa and random dash karakusa
[]Safe Jump normal grab/U2 whiff buffer
[]stagger st.mk full screen as a defense against her dashing in and grabbing you
[]safe jump buffered fwd dash beats backdash mid-screen for free throw or jab combo. or push her into the corner so she can’t backdash for free.
[*]what to do against tk.ak on wakeup
[/LIST]

El Fuerte

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]Can low profile tostada presses with cr.mp and cr.hk at certain ranges, you can only do these against the ones that fly at an angle and can cross-up, not the ones that go straight down where it’s easy to tell if they’re going to cross up or not.
[/LIST]

Zangief

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]test green hand fadc backdash for Ultra punish.
[]Unthrowable lariat (u+KKK/PPP)
[]See who recovers first when Gief does ex.gh and boxer does ex.hb. is ex.Gh throwable?
[]Lariat cues with dust around legs to know which one he used. (non Punch isn’t invincible, but recovers faster)
[/LIST]

M. Bison

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]Beware 3/4 screen PC since they’re positive or really safe on block, those into cr.lk are frame traps.
[/LIST]

Guy

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]not safe to aa headbutt guy after wall jump from certain ranges.
[]OH low-profiles headbutt?
[/LIST]

Vega

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]http://shoryuken.com/f264/ultra-1-setups-strange-things-246053/
[/LIST]

Gen

Spoiler

[LIST]
[]is [C] cr.mp xx hp.roll a blockstring? (no, you can also interrupt the roll on block as well)
[]Is Gekiro an Anti-backdash (test with oga that hits low into lk gekiro, early and late)?
[*]Fuzzy guard setups?
[/LIST]

Rufus

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]Look at blocked hp.gt to cr.lp xx ex.gt frame trap
[/LIST]

Sakura

Spoiler

[LIST]
[*]Sakura can instant OH with j.lp?
[/LIST]

[3nigmat1c]

Guile Matchup video:
[media=youtube]gqk_byiAT9s[/media]

General Strategy: You want to push Guile to a place where his pressure is unsafe, although Guile can rush down, his Character isn’t made for that. It’s made for a defensive rush down, this is his most EFFICIENT playstyle. Guile has a 4f reversal, so knocking him down doesn’t give you much advantage because it guarantees an opportunity for him to get enough down-charge for flash kick. As such, your combos should reflect this (some of these are my thoughts after the fact). Comboing into cr.hk is only useful deep corner, where the pressure is scarier for Guile since he can’t retreat safely. The first 15s of the match should be Balrog pushing Guile into the corner so he can’t walk back boom and zone safely taking minimal damage.

Booms are a defensive zoning tool, not built for damage, boom trades are never in Guiles favor damage-wise. Guile wants CHIP damage from booms, not raw damage outside of combos/frame-traps. Guile is not Sagat, blocking his booms will lose you 30% health with no spacing advantages.

DON’T JUMP IN ON GUILE WITH DOWN-CHARGE.
ALWAYS JUMP OVER EX BOOMS (you can’t afford the pushback, chip and blockstun)

Guile Punishes: This is a priority list of punishes

*blocked flash kick
-Ultra, Super, [cr.mp xx hp.ds], [cl.hk/cr.mk, st.lp, st.hk], st.hp
*blocked cr.hk
-Ultra, Super, ex.smash, backdash st.hk/st.hp
*blocked boom
-Anticipating frame trap: high ex.dashes, low ex.dashes, headbutt
-zoning booms: Block low/high, nj.hp wiggle fwd
*zoning booms
-j.hk/j.hp (effective jump ranges), neutral jump, FADC bwd/fwd, block
*blocked bazooka knee (b/f+lk) (maintaining back-charge)
-stand-tech (throw), cr.lk/cr.mk/cr.hk, block
*whiffed bazooka knee (b/f+lk) (maintaining back-charge)
-block, hp.hb (ONLY HP.HB), st.hk/st.hp, reaction U1/Super
*jump back roundhouse (he usually does this on reaction, this is for Balrog if your guess chasing :/)
-Chasing: walk forward, fwd.dash, TAP, ex.ru, ex.dl, ex.smash (these are most useful if his jump arc collides with the corner and not if he can land right in the corner)
*throws
-When ever going for a throw (or in throw range), always make sure that you’re either deep mid-screen OR facing the closest corner, a teched throw returns you to neutral, but if you have your back to the corner it puts you deeper into the corner and him in his sweet spot.

These matches were cut from a set of 31 matches (I won 5 of of the entire set).

Match 02 - @00:00
Match 06 - @03:15
Match 09 - @05:56
Match 10 - @08:30
Match 20 - @12:54
Match 22 - @16:42
Match 24 - @19:30

@00:28 - He uses both the knee bazooka and the rolling sobat to move around and maintain back-charge.
@00:35 - Look at my life, I have not been hit once, but i’ve blocked every boom he sent my way.
@00:49 - At the range he’s at, he’s free to abuse walk back boom, At those ranges, I cant dash punch in a way that will trade, but the reckless rushdown paid off with my trade hp.hb to Ultra since I now have him in the corner.
@00:58 - Guiles jump back roundhouse is really good at this range, if he baits you with jump back there’s no need to chase since you already have him in the corner. I do this a lot…totally unnecessary.
@01:20 - Guiles booms don’t dissappate as they cross the screen, they will stay on the screen as long as there’s screen. Guile has a weird time AAing you if you jump over the boom (and obv doesn’t have down-charge). He can air-to-air well in this situation though.
@01:54 - This is the safest time to jump-in on Guile (and also one of the main reasons he doesn’t do well in the corner). Gule has to forgo his down-charge to boom, his AA’s aren’t bad, but they’re most likely to trade or be beat clean. Also he can’t air-to-air you after jumping over a boom at this range.
@02:25 - Cities almost ONLY uses flash-kick as his grounded anti-air, ex.fk never trades, while regular CAN trade (but it only traded once in our set).
@02:32 - I did this a lot (jump over throw), notice that after he techs it actually pushes him into the corner.
@02:40 - This is the general range for zoning booms, from here he can punish all attempts to avoid by jumping forward, with f+hp, df+hk, air-throw etc.
@02:48 - I use lows a lot, this is mostly to keep him in place so he doesn’t have
@02:56 - This is what I was referring to when i mentioned trading with booms (esp with CH).

@03:40 - notice the gargantuan pushback from a traded lp.ds . Being able to guess/anticipate/read booms can really be in your favor.
@04:20 - this is one way to let Guile out of the corner and lose the momentum of a match. Do you best to NEVER let Guile out of the corner and just counter-poke. cr.lp, cr.lk is an almost impossible block-string, cr.lp, cr.lp xx lp.ds is a much tighter block-string.
@04:25 - Guile obv has nothing left, so block-string into chip damage ftw.
@04:45 - Keep you eyes on Guiles meter, when he has no meter he can’t ex.boom, ex.boom gives him the greatest opportunity to reclaim optimal spacing (bad for you, good for him).
@05:04 - This is a pretty good example of what the hitboxes look like for j.hk/j.hp, he gets lower body invincibility for jump-ins, so keep this in mind when jumping over booms and you can jump in at ranges that look impossible.
@05:20 - Very little is safe for guile in the corner, ex.boom was easily stuffed with lp.ds (he ex.boomed to try to widen up the space so he could pressure from the corner)
@05:28 - this is a tactic I use against a lot of characters and didn’t break the habit for Guile, I let him out of the corner and put myself into deep corner by him teching the throw.

@06:50 - this is a range where you can cause a lot of chip damage using two-in-one strings, cr.mp xx lp.ds puts you at max distance cr.mp range and cr.mp xx lk.ru puts you right in cr.lp range, so you can mix in the strings and pretty much pressure and endless counterpoke with two in ones.
@08:00 - this is the main use of torpedo/smash, to push your opponents closer to the corner, a traded lk.smash pushes Guile about 1/4 screen.

@08:49 - FADC backdash is a great tool to use against jump-ins you’re not sure you can AA safely OR if your reactions suck, it can be punished though (HARD).
@09:27 - Walk up throw is another way Guile can play with the blockstun caused by booms.
@09:40 - Don’t both with OH, I was testing it out to see if there was anyway I could get the links with him crouching, but aside from cr.hk, it’s almost impossible to land the follow-ups in a match, probably best to go with a plinked st.hp or st.hk instead of cr.hk or an attempted follow-up.
@09:54 - He’s booming in an attempt to reset the spacing, it’s purely defensive.
@10:26 - This was an attempt to land ex.ru, Ultra 1. It’s possible and that’s the right spacing, but i didn’t have enough backcharge.
@10:46 - This is something i didn’t really realize/understand until after I spoke with cities about it, there’s a range where booms are unsafe against Balrog with down-charge because of hp.hb which has the greatest horizontal range. (a similar tactic comes into play with punishing Sonic hurricanes) This is the absolute tip of that range.
@11:05 - Cities used his last meter on ex.boom to push me full screen, meterless Guile doesn’t have an easy answer for ex.dashes through booms, so this is where you want to do the majority of your reckless chasing given you have enough life to gamble.
@12:10 - Whenever you absorb an attack, blocking subsequent attacks reduces the gray life you have left over much quicker than if you’d just blocked (or so it seems). You should never take chip damage when you have gray health, it kinda defeats the purpose.
@12:23 - This was supposed to be focus attack dash fwd ultra, but i mucked up my inputs. I’d noticed he’d burn the meter for ex.boom every time he got it so this was the idea.

@13:35 - I did full-screen ex.dashes a lot, he wasn’t punishing them with reaction normal throw (although he did use ex.boom a lot), it was a quick way to close the distance, be safe on block, and possibly trade if he boomed.
@13:47 - This is a frame trap that’s going to punish attempts to walk forward after blocking, it’s meant to keep you in one place and push you out further (it combos on hit).
@14:12 - This is the magic jump-in range for booms.
@14:58 - This is a punish to the frame trap, you can also do U1/Super/headbutt, but that’s gambling a lot (BUT st.hk is definitely vulnerable to Ultra).
@16:12 - Keep the range for jump-ins losing to his f+hp in mind.

@16:58 - This was the first match where I decided taking boom chip damage was a BAD idea lol, wiggle nj.hp is scary for Guile, it’s really hard/difficult for him to beat it without trading without down-charge.
@17:30 - I think this was the only time he AA’d with a normal.
@17:54 - This is an application of that “magic” jump-range, you can use this to beat attempted AA’s clean.
@18:20 - This is a safe jump. (probably…)
@18:56 - The jump-range usually whiffs if he doesn’t attempt to AA.
@19:12 - He used st.mk, which is probably the most situational AA, it doesn’t trade in his favor, but it netted him the match. It’s kinda like Ryu’s far st.lk.

I don’t really have any notes for the last match, but it’s kinda a culmination of what i learned.

[Super_Sick_Case]

Guys, im having a TON of trouble with T.Hawk. It seems in AE his pokes have become better, I also am having a hard time punishing his Condor Spire. Plus whenever he lands his U1 that thing usually does high DAMAGE and can level the playing field and make my big life lead look meaningless. Any tips for this Rog in training?

[Kane_Blueriver]

What I do against T.Hawk is basically the same that I do against Zangief. First rule is: Don’t let him knock you down! Try to get the initial life advantage, even if it’s from chip damage, then get into tower mode, he has no real way to get in, at worst you’ll trade and the lead will still be yours. Just keep him out of range with cr. HK/ st. HK and punish jump-in accordingly with cr. HP. That should be the overall plan. If he knocks you down though you’ll have to be really careful about how to get out, but that’s quite documented around here. The only real deal, I think, is to check if he’s going to do dive or d+HP when he jumps in on you, but shouldn’t be hard to see, and HB is a good option against both if he jumps outside of cr. HP range. Also, personal advice: After a blocked spire, usually backdashing is the best option.

[D-chong]

t.hawk is bad but not as bad as gief. stay in the life lead and keep him out. If he jumps, you jump at him. anti airing t.hawk is risky business because of his dive. apply safe jump pressure as much as you can and you should be able to win

[Kane_Blueriver]

I don’t understand why people feel that Zangief is hard, you have all the ways to keep him out, he has to get random to have a chance of getting in, and you still can escape some way or another.

[Tooserius]

Gief is difficulty, especially with U2.

Here is a small video is me playing an Abel (Prof.X) over a GameWarz in Miami Florida.

First to 5, money match.

Playing on 360 so I drop some things.

Hopefully, they can repair and reupload the rest of the videos so that I can upload them.

Twitch

[3nigmat1c]

Diclawsus wrote a wall of text that might be helpful for the T. Hawk matchup, there’s more discussion before and after this post that might be helpful as well.

Momma Said Knock You Out! The Balrog/Boxer Super Strategy and Match Ups Thread

some really foolish comments regarding gief/hawk matches. k well to clear it up u want to as somebody said spray them with standing jabs. standing jabs and also standing hard kick to punish wiffed slow normals. with gief his jumping mk beats cr hp at the right angle/height so that is actually something to refrain from. standing medium punch and jump back hp are your most frequent ones to use with occasional cr hp. i would refrain from dash upper even more so as trading hits just…sucks and…

with regards to hawk u have 2 ranges where u rape…close(i’ll explain) as well at the range of your jab. the footsy battle with hawk is harder then gief imo…his normals are ballin. u will see 5 normals consistently…standing jab when he tries to stuff dashes, standing medium punch as both a fast punisher for your normals and a bait for your slow poke, standing hard punch when he wants to long range blast u, standing hard kick when he wants to catch u coming in and cr mk when he wants to counter hit sweeps as well as make u worry about low blocks. his grabs are not as long as giefs lp one however he has some pretty sneaky tricks to get in…spire and his dash. u can actually armor non ex spire and if hes predictable with it u can ex dash straight them. when you’re throwing your normals out there with baits etc hes going to try to predict your pattern so make sure u dont get predictable. a good hawk will read your movement/normals, dash in and dump u. if he gets u afraid from throwing normals by catching u thats when he will feel balls with condor spire grabs. spire also goes over your sweep and tags u…putting you within jab grab range more often then not so use the sweep VERY sparingly and keep standing jab out there when u expect spire nonsense to come(standing jab beats it clean.) if u get a knockdown dont retreat like u would with gief…jump on his face. hawk has absolutely terrible aa. only good one he has is ex buster(his srk move). other aa he has is his cr fierce and normal busters. both have terrible startup and get stuffed if he reacts late. on wakeup he cant do a damned thing to jump ins without meter to abuse the hell out of that. if he gets stupid with condor dives laugh…its free dmg. cr hp beats it clean and if u feel hes going to emptry jump instead just backdash. hawk cant catch u in that case at all. also if hes really really dumb with the dives/jump ints neutral hp is godlike…if he wiffs a dive u land on him and have a free combo…if he comes in proximity of u n the air blast him with it right away. generally the matchup is keeping hawk out normals at a distance and when u get a knockdown while he has no meter then jump on his face and apply mixup. avoid dashes like u would with gief…long range jab ones on occasion are fine but really thats it. reason being is just like gief his grabs are 2 frames…not cool. dont walk yourself into the corner just like u would with gief. generally u tend to not do a ton of retreating if u play this right as your normals beat pretty much everything he does as long as u dont give him anything to read. lastly if u react late a dive block. u can punish with pretty much anything…including a 2 hour nap followed by an ultra. last trick i can think of is when a hawk hits the air they try to wiff dives in front of u so they can either buster u if u try to jump or dump u. stay out of hawk mixup too…imo his mixup is worse then giefs mid screen.

the last thing to mention is the escape option difference with both. the main thing with hawk is that u cant be predictable ever in your escapes u have to mix jump back and backdashing to keep him from guessing right. get predictable with backdashes u eat a spire and if u get predictable with jumps u eat a buster…his meter is irrelivent in that situation. gief however jump back fierce is your best bet until he gets meter…when he gets meter he can actually take a small step and ex green hand u before u hit the ground. giefs will eventually get pissed off at that escape and try to do some kind of quick air normal usually the overhead chop which is mp. usually trades which is good regardless as you both get reset with distance between u. all in all hawk mix up escapes and busy with unpredictable normals at all times, jump on him during wakeup when he has no meter. gief u are very patient and slow with normals, jump back is your best escape till he gets meter then u need to mix it up. dont use tap…ever. they both have terribly slow focus attacks so they are easy to get away from. hope this all helped

Also today I was practicing the backdash Ultra, and I think it might be useful for punishing shoto two-in-ones, like cr.mk xx hado or cr.mk xx tatsu, allowing ultra punishes up close where dash ultra won’t work and raw ultra is too unsafe, since you’ve got forever and a day to confirm. Wasn’t able to pull it off consistently enough to test out punishing a cr.mk xx hado at max jab distance. Just an idea though.

[ChoBo]

Daigo Umehara is in my pool and I plan on using Balrog vs Yun, is there any advice on what anti air’s to use and how to punish?

[3nigmat1c]

Yun can almost use anything except cr.hp to AA Yun’s dive kick, there’s a picture in the first page showing the dive kicks and at what height you can punish. Go to AA’s for yun are st.lp and cr.mp. What you want to concentrate more on is knowing when to attempt to AA and when to just use an ex.dash or headbutt, At certain ranges it’s suicide to AA Yun. Just go in training mode, record each dive kick and practice punishing and AAing them.

[ChoBo]

Thanks. I’ve been playing a couple of yun’s and it feels like his footsies are superior up close. They keep getting me with standing med punch into target combo and dive kick pressure is stupid. It feels like this match up forces me to turtle and wait for him to jump.

[3nigmat1c]

Alright, i had the opportunity to play Yun for a while (not a Yun main unfortunately) and i think i’ve realized how to beat the character (not the player). None of this goes for Yang who IMO is a much different character archetype.

As a character, Yun doesn’t have any repeatable, relatively safe chip damage option. This is why he’s so safe on everything else. As a character, the ONLY thing Yun has to scare any character is command throw which has significantly more range than Yang’s and is on par with 2f grab Ultras (Guy, Honda, Ibuki etc). Lunge punches are unsafe up close and usually shoulders and blockstrings like Guy’s. Yun is an offensive beast, he can press buttons and because he’s safe and has target combos, it generally means you can’t press a button or ex.dash, also you can’t headbutt because that’s what he wants you to do as he’s pausing in his blockstrings.

What I feel that usually happens in the Yun matchup is that he backdashes and starts palming to build meter, and since Balrog has extra recovery on headbutt, he can’t do this. Look at it this way, he’s going to get super, so by getting frustrated and giving away life you’re going to make him get there faster and not have enough life to survive a Genji Jin combo. In this situation what you should do is edge forward, well out of normal range, but in the range where you can react to or punish lunge punches on block. Don’t press any buttons but sit there. Eventually he’ll stop either because it feels unsafe, or he has super.

At this point when you see an opening in the neutral game, you want to close space as quick as possible with a dash punch ballsy TAP or whatever, and rush down. Yun has almost perfect offense, but very little character defense. He doesn’t have a get off me tool (like Yang’s Kaihou which is practically a short range teleport) and his dragon kicks whiff on crouching Balrog. Rush him down as quick as possible, getting both chip damage and tick throwing. As a character, i think Yun’s bad matchups are fireball zoners and grapplers. With Balrog you can emulate that kind of playstyle with normal throws and lp.ds. And that’s how you win, i think.

[ChoBo]

Thanks so much, I’ll remember to keep my cool during the match. I’m in Vegas now hoping to train with some so cal buddies who can familiarize me with the match up. It’s hard to not press buttons when someone is pressuring me though because jab is so good so I’ll try and sparingly use it. Do you go with ultra 1 or 2 in this match up?

[3nigmat1c]

It depends, personally I pick U1, simply because I get easy damage off of a connected jab. And i feel that you always have to capitalize off of any opening you get, and that’s the most simple in terms of execution/meter management. U2 is good up close since you have an up close punish that doesn’t need back-charge, but in most situations he can probably jab you twice and be out of range, or just ex.grab after the freeze and be invincible to throws altogether. You can do it on dive kicks, but with Yun, it’s better to cr.hp, cr.mp or headbutt and trade in Rogs favor than attempt to punish it on block since you let him in, and if it’s a perfect dive kick, he’s safe and point blank :[

I’ve got wayyy more experience in the Yang matchup, but they’re really different, Yang is more like a slower fei long with all the same tools, but better, while Yun is like Fei Long minus rekka pressure but with a better command throw. Yang has similar movements to Vanilla Gen as well if anyone remembers his original jump arc in the Crane Style.

i’ll be in Vegas soon, too hyped right now.

[PumpkinBomber]

Good luck at Evo, guys! I’ll root for you guys if I see you on stream. :tup:

[Bojador_pt]

As a character, Yun doesn’t have any repeatable, relatively safe chip damage option. Lunge punches are unsafe up close and usually shoulders and blockstrings like Guy’s.

What I feel that usually happens in the Yun matchup is that he backdashes and starts palming to build meter, and since Balrog has extra recovery on headbutt, he can’t do this. Look at it this way, he’s going to get super, so by getting frustrated and giving away life you’re going to make him get there faster and not have enough life to survive a Genji Jin combo.

What do you do against s.mp xx lp.shoulder spam? Without meter boxer can’t HB or Dash Punch and is forced to block and take the chip. This is even more agravating because you’ll be in the corner after you block just a few of these. I haven’t tried grabbing Yun out of lp.shoulder and I know you can FA absorb and dash back but once again you’ll be putting yourself in the corner. With meter you can ex.HB or ex.dash punch. Torpedo if you’re in the corner to get some space or ex.upper to extended combo and damage.

And that’s my main problem with Yun right now… Avoid to be in the corner where his game is really scary because of the juggle possibilities and because he can pressure you more easily with his beasty normals. Unfortunately the Yun I’ve been playing doesn’t go into the corner to build meter, and I find myself in the corner more often than I would like to.

S.lp is good keeping him at bay to some extent but Yun’s small hitbox makes it difficult to confirm into sweep and s.lp will often whiff. I find that a “good guess/read” Ex.HB is Boxer’s best tool to defeat Yun when he starts feeling that he can pressure for free. But soon the other player will start baiting and you will lose this tool aswell.

And you can hp.HB EX Lunge punch and it won’t trade if you do it late. Which you don’t even have to time, you just react. The move is so damn fast that is hard to time the HB. Just go for hp.HB if you don’t have ex meter.

Will all Yun up kick whiff on a crouched boxer?

One other thing I noticed, c.lp, cl.hk as a frame trap won’t work if Yun is crouch teching. Yun c.lk will come out, making your cl.HK whiff and you’ll be hit by the c.lk into something. Go for cl.MP instead.

Does any Boxer normal beats Yun’s s.MP?

[3nigmat1c]

Well just looking at the frame data, it doesn’t look like a true block string, so you should always be able to interrupt it with headbutt or TAP. I can’t try it out, but i’m pretty sure i’m right, or pretty right. He’s negative on block too with the shoulder, so you have an advantage if he’s trying to far st.mp xx lp.shoulder you for chip, you can backdash and throw, this will probably work really well in the corner since the attack has a decent amount of recovery (24f total).

But i haven’t had a lot of experience in the matter, so this is just speculation. Watching the crapton of Yun matches @ Evo has me really sticking to my theory fighter above. The whole deal with st.lp whiffing comes from his hitbox being weird, you cant hit-confirm from three jabs, you can only use two. So just make your combos into st.hk/cr.hk start with two jabs, so cr.lp, st.lp, etc.

Yes I’m almost 100% positive Yun’s dragon kicks whiff on crouched boxer, but they cause you to lose your back-charge. There was a post a while back about using jab O/S sweep against the twins and what they could do. Maybe three pages back.

Also I don’t believe Yun is a character who’s normals you don’t want to try to beat. The consensus of all the matches that were lost against Yuns were because they were pressing buttons during his block strings. The number of times I saw counterhit on the screen was stupid. Valle included, it’s just kind of weird. You let him press buttons and look for the throws, that’s it (I feel), easier said than done for sure. In comparison we have ex.dashes, which I think are essential to getting away from pressure.