Gen General Discussion Thread: Theory Fighter!

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1781

Four things come to mind

#1 Meaty setups. I have been reading Dudley lately, did you know after a ex.mcb>mk.duck+upper dudley can use two ducks for a perfectly meaty cr.lk? That hits low and combos into his bnb, he has three or four meaty setups after his bnb, and I believe we can use more than oga or crane cr.hk for meaties.

#2 Crane cr.mk>FADC, this move has a slow startup, goes super low, and has exactly 21 frames of recovery. Theoretically, if you hit with this move on the first active frame, and canceled it with focus attack, you would have 21+2 frames to startup for FA level 1, this move is -3/-1 on block/hit, so you would have all of your frames of startup (21) and 2 frames of active executed before your opponent can even respond, if they block cr.mk, well then your FA comes out with both active frames on the first two frames of their being able to start an attack. Basically, if they block and then attack, you get a counterhit focus attack, which means a crumple. If they get hit, then block, you can dash in or out at +1 frames. Consider this in footsies (hitting low, ducking under jabs even) meaties (too low for that reversal eh?) Or jump ins (timed properly it ducks under far forward reaching jumping attacks like cammys j.hk)

#3 Beating neutral jumps. Did you know that if you are knocked down, an opponent walks into your body, and neutral jump attacks while you wakeup, cr.hp and st.mk will move you forward enough to be behind them as they land? Well, it gets more interesting. If in this situation, you hold the button of the attack you used, you will remain on the other side, and if you let go you wont?

#4 In the corner, I think crane cr.mp>crossup Oga may be a good can opener on certain characters depending on their height and the strength of the oga used. (Purely speculating on this one, but cr.mp has a lot of recovery frames to use canceled into something)

P.S. I forgot to mention for no.2, imagine you read them using a jab, hold the focus, absorb it and then counter attack instead of the free dash in, your read also leads to a crumple. And when are random FADCs that are charged to level three amidst blockstrings? Gens FA does reach pretty far, and you start this one right on top of them.

1782

About #2: Let’s not forget that it turned to -1/+1 on block/hit. Blockstun/hitstun was 20/22 before, now it’s 22/24, so now cr.MK xx FA is a true blockstring unless you cancel it at the 3rd active frame (which is difficult). After FADC it is even on block, +2 on hit.

1783

Also, I believe, by experience alone, that a blocked j.lk to cr.lk is a fuzzy guard that often cant be blocked.

*Giving away a sandbagged secret here, someone please comment on my post! D;

1784

care to explain how its a fuzzy guard?

1785

When I attempt it in matches, my opponents (usually) seem to be unable to block low after blocking high for the j.lk, if I use it, its for a jump in where I hit the tip of the heads edge of the enemies hurtbox.

I do not otherwise know why it works, I can assume they have time to do something other than block, but if I am right they do not have enough time to transition to blocking low.

In my recent memory, I know this works on Gouken, Cammy, and Sagat. (Probably more)

Only one time in matches was I ever questioned as to why I hit them with it.

(I am not a labwork guy, otherwise I would have an answer for this)

1786

There is enough time to blocking low (just like how other characters do j.LK -> cr.LK), but since crane’s j.LK hits so high on the hitbox it hits almost right before he lands, giving them less time to do so than something like shoto’s j.LK. However, it is still possible to do it consistently offline.

1787

The one that works for me is the shakudan instant overhead. works for the most part

1788

Yes but in this case you can confirm the cr.lk into a combo.

1789

ok you win bro

1790

I also think that blocked gekiro canceled as fast as possible in the right conditions is hard to punish. I can say that it is at most -9, because I blocked a Cammys Ultra 1 right after my gekiro was blocked (instead of floating I dropped it asap)

Has anyone looked into how punishable it is on block if canceled immediately?

1791

It is around -8 iirc.

1792

The one thing I hate about playing Gen online, aside from not being a very online-friendly character in general, is the PP killers. Players usually between 1-2k PP, who have a vague idea what they are doing but are not good at all. BUT, in the right scenario, IE heavy lag, when you know the basic tactics, you can get away with so much bullshit. Lose once to someone 2000 points below you and pew, there goes 500 pp. Shit’s infuriating.

1793

dude what does PP mean to you. just enjoy the game.

1794

PP doesn’t mean anything to me lol, but nobody likes losing to goons cause of lag.

1795

ok im not going to start a new thread right now, but im gonna attempt to get a couple lists compiled. TC2 into hk giekro characters; mp, fp into hk giekro characters; characters that are easily hit by a cross up into lp/lk hit confirm into HPxxxHK giekro; and corner reverse blockables from either forward throw or hk giekro. any adjustments or corrections are appreciated

HK Giekro

TC 2xxxHK giekro-

cammy, cody, dudley, guy, hakan, juri, makoto, sagat, seth, t.hawk, gief

MP, HPxxxHK giekro(punish situation)-

akuma, blanka, chun, sim, honda, e.ryu, oni, rufus

either stance cross up hit confirm lp/lk hit confirm HPxxxHK giekro(so easy, you should consider changing your BnB, and list 1 characters not included in testing for obvious reasons)-

adon, akuma, blanka, chun, sim, honda, oni, rufus

most everyone else can be hit by just fp into HK giekro, or a front side jump in hit confirm into HK giekro. that being said, never try to hit confirm into HK giekro unless after an FADC on-

yun, yang, sakura, deejay, gule, fuerte, rose.

Corner Reverse Blockables

corner front throw, forward dash, crane cr.mp, crane jump mk-

ryu, ken, makoto, akuma, gen, dan, sakura, oni, yun, yang, chun(SBK!), sim, viper, bison, cody, hakan, e.ryu, guile, gief

HK Giekro finish, forward dash, sweep, jump forward mantis mk(finish with opponent at or slightly above gens head)

ryu, ken, makoto, dan, sakura, juri, sim, abel, bison, sagat, cammy, e.ryu, blanka, rufus, rose…

Hk Giekro finish, forward dash, sweep, jump forward crane mk

gouken, dudley, yun, yang, cammy, deejay, fei…

Corner Unblockables

corner front throw, forward dash, forward dash, mantis jump forward mk

guy, ibuki

corner forward throw, forward dash, mantis crouch mk, mantis jump forward mk

seth

HK giekro finish, back dash, forward dash, mantis jump mk

guy, ibuki

Mid Screen Practical Unblockables

forward throw, lp roll, crane jump mk

yun, yang

forward throw, lp roll, crane jump rh

sakura, hakan, oni

more in a bit

i’ll edit this post as-i test more/have more time/you guys help. also, if anyone has a list of different set ups after hk giekro in the corner or mid screen, it would be sweet if you could either post, repost, or link it. if i can get enough new hard knockdown info collected, i’ll maybe make a set up thread. i’m not including all the oga shenanigans(we have threads for that). im mostly trying to focus on our safe jumps, practical unblockables, reverse blockables, and reversal DP killers

1796

you omitted juri, it works on her too, also cody is costume dependent, if you are using cody alt 2 (the one he wears singlet and jeans) then HK will wiff, if you remember there was a thread I say it didnt work and you responded to tell me it did work, I tested it and it was due to cody wearing alt costume.

on a second not you can use these simple set ups in the corner

Forward throw, dash mantis cMP, jump Mk (cross up on 80% of the cast)
Forward throw, dash crane cMP, jump MK (fake cross up on 80% of the cast)

HK gekiro, dash mantis sweep, jump medium kick (safejump/crossup on seth midscreen, unblockable in the corner)

1797

IIRC they said they would fix it in 2012 when it was first found in AE. I cannot test it since I dont hav alt. If you could test it once more I would greatly appreciate it.

BTW, if you use TC2 as a whiff punish (and it works really well too!), you cannot use HK gekiro as a finisher to most characters categorized as possible due to a range problem.

1798

yeah, they said they fixed it… I cannot test it though because I don’t have those costumes

1799

Seems fixed.

1800

On PC it doesn’t work on v2012, it wiffs, oh well what does it matter anyway