Since im an unexperienced tournament player, my execution from training and casuals gets fickle(along with my nerves) when I play tournament matches.
I was rarely dropping the standard c.lk, c.lp, fiercexxforward gekiro combo in casuals that morning, but during my first match, which was offstream, I couldn’t do the combos I wanted consistently, so I reverted to the ones that I’ve been doing since december. maybe when I stop being a pussy and get some tournament nerves ill do okay.
My biggest problem was lack of match-up experience and knowledge. I actually decide to play gen over my regular char, Dhalsim, because I feel his bad matches are still winable, unlike sim vs yun, but it doesn’t really help when I don’t actually understand the match. I should have been reading these forums and learning Gen instead of spending last week learning Jill.
Is there a stream archive or camera footage from the European tournament?
Was fiddling around in training mode and I found a reproducible cross-up Teiga. This is obviously the setup used on the twins for the soft-blockable or whatever we want to call it. It works on about a fourth of the cast meaning they have to reverse block, or choose the correct reversal. Most opponents can’t reversal safely since Gen will just sail over their heads and be out of the way. Made a vid (will post when it’s uploaded).
[media=youtube]qEsm86h4HJw[/media]
fwd.throw, lp.roll, tk-fwd.teiga
Works on: Ibuki, Yang, Yun, Akuma, Gen, Dan, Sakura, Oni, Chun-li, Cody, Guy, Hakan, and Adon.
Whiffs on: Dhalsim, Cammy, Blanka
Guile can regular block, but can’t attempt to reversal with anything or it’ll whiff unsafely or be beat out by Teiga (yay)
Also found that you can test soft-blockables against the dummy by recording them holding backwards for eight seconds.
Yeah lack of match-up knowledge definately hurts Gen a lot. But then again I had no idea that you did not main Gen so it’s pretty understandable anyway. I feel that Gen is one of those ‘‘play him 100% otherwise you won’t get anywhere’’ characters personally. He has so much depth, and I don’t mean just combos in that regard.
Well you beat Choi which was cool, he had no idea what was happening I reckon haha. People never get used to playing Gen it seems, from the whiff gekiro which they don’t know how to punish to the crane j.mk cross-ups. Fun stuff.
3nigmat1c
Good shit I’ll be adding that to the shenanigans topic aswell.
Hey gentle folk, I’ve been interested in learning Gen but I don’t know what to start. I looked at the guide thread and started learning a couple combos, how the oga works and whatnot, but he still seems like such a mindfuck. Honestly he does seem like a heavy shenanigans character but I find the best way to work on a character is to always work on the solid stuff first.
What would you guys say are the fundamentals to work on? I mean i got a couple bnb combos but aside from that, nothing really. If you could help me…
What are his best anti-airs?
Any good frame-traps?
Best footsies?
c.lk s.lp s.hp>s.mk lk gekiro ( s.lp to c.hp is 1 frame but worth learning)
s.mp s.hp>s.mk lk gekiro (if you do a crane j.hp or j.hkx2 this is his best nonmeter combo, 329 damage or so)
c.mp into hands (very important for spacing and footsies and hitconfirm into super). You’ll need to learn how to piano (or slide…) buttons in order to get hand combos to work.
s.mp s.mk into hp hands
j.mk (or any other jump in attack really, can also be a crane j.hp or something) c.lk>c.mk (target combo) lk gekiro, or super hitconfirm if you have it.
crane combos:
j.hkx2 c.mp hp roll (311 damage)
j.mk s.lp c.lk (after c.lk you should switch to mantis to do super, or c.hk or hp to finish this combo)
**Anti-airs: **
Mantis s.hp
Mantis c.hp (for jump-ins a little farther away generally)
Mantis (EX) Gekiro
Crane c.hk
You should set the dummy in training mode to various jump in attacks to see what works and what doesn’t, get comfortable with them.
Frame Traps/footsies:
Mantis s.mp is a great frame trapping tool, I use it all the time by doing s.mp, wait a split second and do another one, and another one. If you have you oppponent cornered it can be used twice and you can do whatever you want after it like mantis s.hk (greatly improved in AE, nice range). Normals for footsies are generally c.mp (into hands) c.hp, c.hk and s.mp. Gen has pretty good range on some of those, get familiar with the spacing of each and every one of them. Do not bother playing footsies in crane stance, his crane normals are not meant for that at all. The occasional crane s.mp overhead or s.hp 'underhead (mix it up haha) can be used to surprise people with but generally crane stance is used to jump in with (huge jump arc, you can jump in with j.hp on someone throwing a fireball from slightly less than fullscreen and still manage to hit them!) and air to air his j.hp is pretty groovy. Also his crane j.hk x2 can be used air to air to combo in ot his crane ultra and super (note: you don’t need to hit them twice with the kicks, one hit can also combo).
These are pretty much the basics you need to know 100% before digging into all the crazy walldive setups and unblockables and whatnot. Ofcourse there are more combos and combos that require you to switch between stances and such but those are imo not neccesarry at all, and certainly not useful for a beginning Gen player. Have fun! After you feel like you can do this stuff check out Thehoigek on youtube, he has videos for walldive shenanigans and safejump setups. Also read up on some the sticky threads here, loads and loads of tricks and info. =)
*I just quickly wrote this out the top of my head so if anyone wants add please feel free to do so. Think these are the essentials though.
Wow, thanks. The only combo I got down so far was the cr.lk,cr.lp, s.hp x mk x gek combo. The crane normals seem kind of terrible for footsies or upclose in general since they can’t chain and all seem unsafe, although the cr.hk just looked like it would be a good anti air.
Is there something you guys would agree is his general playstyle though? I mean if someone asked me ‘ken’ for instance I could easily say rushdown and wakeup mixups. He seems like some sort of footsie/shenanigans character on a cursory glance, but guess I just need to watch more videos.
I would personally describe him as a footsie/poke based character that also has a huge array of shenanigans and tricks. He is an odd one though, but once you get his basics down (which will take some time, he isn’t easy) and learn shenigans like walldive cross-ups things get crazy fast! I suggest you watch videos of a player called Amiyu he is a ultimate master in the japanese arcades. He is the example of how Gen can be played with both solid fundamental footsies and stuff, but also mixing in some shenanigans every once in awhile.
And yes crane is my ‘air’ stance generally. The jump arc is good for jump-ins and to start a combo from. Also j.mk is a pretty godlike cross-up move in crane stance.
Thanks, had a mini fight night here and played Gen all night. Did surprisingly well even though I honestly didn’t use hands at all. Some of gen’s mantis footsies, particularly s.mk, s.hk and cr.hk seem pretty damn good. I was able to out footsie a balrog somehow. I still find his crane normals are garbage though.
I also had real trouble anti-airing without using the ex-gekiro. The regular gekiros traded with everything or just got beat. The s.hp traded 90% of the time, I don’t get it, are you supposed to only hit them with the 2nd hit? The cr.hp worked decently though.
So do you guys use the crane j.mk and hit ppp right after to switch stance for hit-confirm combo? The crane jump is great but even when I landed that crossup its not like I could combo into roll.
Not all crane normals are bad, some of them are very good and probably essential… some of them are totally worthless.
Talking about footsies, I think crane cMP is actually good for poking, the only good crane poke, and crane’s faster walk speed helps a bit
Those mantis normals you wrote about are very good indeed… you should also start using cMP (xx hands), probably gen’s best poke now in AE… it rapes focus attacks and other moves with armor property… and it has best startup and recovery than other pokes, neat hitbox… potential starter for quite damaging fadc combos
I personally think mantis sHP for anti-air purpose sucks big time (trades all the time, and you always deal less damage than you receive since you obviously trade with 1 hit out of its 2) but some people seem to like it…
You should learn when to antiair mainly with mantis cHP and when with crane cHK… i know its not that easy to switch style + antiair on the run but thats part of the character.
Also consider dashing under their jumps or doing late focus+backdash on some occasions… both his dashes are nice in range
EX gekiro is obviously good but it costs meter.
MK and HK gekiros for AA are just bad imo.
I’m recently trying to give LK gekiro a chance against non-deep jumpins… not trying to use its partially invincible startup, but using its great amount of active frames and very good frontal hitbox which almost stands still in front of you… so you need to really anticipate the opponent… and if you realize he’s going to land where he’s going to meet your big hitbox (but you have to know how LK gekiro’s hitbox is shaped and positioned, its different from the others, bigger and lower) active for like 15 frames… you can use it… and i think its works a million times better than MK and HK antiair gekiros… when spaced correctly it seemed like the best meterless thing to beat stuff like dudley’s jHK and guy’s elbow drop (not the bushinflip, the one with down+mp)
After any jump in or crossup you probably want to go for manti hit confirms, better blockstrings, hit confirms, more damaging combos,and best stance to start any sort of mixup
I think of crane as a support stance for situational stuff and they are GOOD for situational stuff… almost everytime I switch stance is because i need just a single hit in crane (anti air, air to air, jumpin, overhead, sHP scoop)… before getting back to mantis asap
everything else has a limited use. even tho the jabs arent chainable, theyre ok for block strings. st.mk actually has an amazing hitbox, and does 100dmg.(same as most heavys). cr.mk dodges fireballs. both roundhouses are good at AA, and i like both fierces in meaty situations. as trappy said, crmp is a good poke, and of course the overhead and launcher.
if they made the jabs chainable and mash proof, id be ok with crane
Do people really still FADC combos? Call me conservative but unless I am 100% sure I can end the round I prefer to save it for his godlike super and EX gekiro if I need that. Especially considering his FADC combos barely reach 400 damage and one of his bnb’s does 300+ already 9excluding the crane roll combo, also 300+). It just seems kind of pointless to me.
IMHO it just depends on the situation, and i can relate to amiyu’s use of fadc combos…
as you said, if youre sure you can end the round with it, its not that bad
after heavy jump ins, you can even get 390/400 dmg out of a fadc combo (and like 360/370 out of medium jump attacks), + knockdown… getting 1 EX bar back for meter building
a simple poke can lead to a 300-ish dmg combo + knockdown… getting back 60-70% of 1 EX bar
thats when amiyu mainly uses fadc combos, he does them on a good amount of occasions and it seems like a more than reasonable use of meter to me
i wouldn’t really use it after light hits hitconfirms unless it can give the extra damage to end the round
i see many gen players doing fadc on a regular basis not caring if their attack was hitting or getting blocked… and I still see players canceling the 1st hit like in vanilla… giving up on a good percentage of damage… thats just the worst use of fadc imho
I have a mixed feeling right now. Of course, saving for Super is really good and is almost necessary, but I feel if I save it for too long, I’m just wasting some meters that I would have gotten from blockstrings. But in early matches using Super can result in a bad end without Gen having any meter. When I feel like that, I prefer to use FADC combo. I’m working on a gekiro finish -> cross-up Oga setup after FADCing right now, it works pretty good actually.
I end up getting a full super bar a lot, mostly cause the only ex use i’ve been doing is anti-airing with ex-gek. I can barely do hands combos consistently without the FADC, let alone with it.
And for the record, on the subject of FADC’s for most characters I tend to save it excluding a couple things -
On wakeup to FADC out of a blocked srk
I know it will end the match
To style on during casuals/against friends
Unless you got a full super meter, I don’t like to FADC, and usually when you have a full super, the points where it would be good to fadc seem like it’d be better to just super, since gen’s is actually useful.
On another note, do you guys know what to do after a trade anti-air? Does a super or anything connect after a trade?
What FADC combo does 400 dmg after a heavy attack jump-in? I suppose if using two bars for FADC means you’ll get 350+ dmg and you get 1 bar of meter back it doesn’t seem too bad. My fadc combo (if I ever use it) is pretty much: (insert jump-in attack if possible) s.mp s.mk hands FADC s.mp s.hp>s.mk into gekiro.
Street, what kind of fadc combo into oga cross-up are you using? Love me some shenanigans, I can’t tell you how many comebacks I’ve made using the good ol’ forward throw into walkforward>oga.
theres some recent vids of gen players doing 4 hit giekros dropping, and going mk far oga to the opponents wall. ive seen it work on bison and ryu so far, but im sure theres more
I was talking about the TC2 -> LK Gekiro finish -> MK Oga wall. Maybe the word drop was misleading, I’ll change that. I time my kicks so I just barely hit the opponent on their lowest spot possible, then I go for MK Oga on the opponent’s side right away. If I time it too well and I miss the final kick (aka drop it), then I wait for 1 frame and go MK Oga anyways. If I connect my finish kick, then cross up works on casts like Ryu. On shorter characters I need to change my timing so they’re not so much above me. If I whiff the final kick, it works on more characters like Claw, Yun, Yang, etc. The latter is HEAVILY timing dependent.
I imagine the 4 hit drop would be similar to whiffing the final kick.
ok, i tried to find the video of it, but no luck. rokotsu used it in a recent xbl upload i watched this weekend, but i dont know if he overwrote it at this point
i went to the lab, and i’ll try to explain how it works. this isnt like the walk forward cross ups.
its 5 hit giekro, drop the last hit, far mk oga towards the opponents wall
the thing thats diffferent about it is that you arent moving across your opponents hitbox in typical crossup fashion. you are hitting the oga meaty, so you will have passed the front side of the character before they are done waking up. if you have ever seen a cross up meaty horizontal blanka ball, you know what im talking about
in my tests, it works from the target combo, and ive had it work against several characters. all 3 shotos, sagat, makoto, dan, and ibuki. more chatracter tests are needed
but it misses blanka and honda so far. from what i can tell its because they are shorter while waking up, and the mk oga misses completely. you may be able to substitute lk oga, but its tricky because gen reaches the wall faster and it throws off the auto timing. more testing is needed
EDIT-i can get it to work on seth with a rh oga
the execution is pretty simple and straight forward. just lk giekro 5 hits (dunno if it matters, but my 4 and 5 are back to back to make the opponent drop fast, and 5th hit is 3kicks), mk oga up forward as soon as gen touches the ground. gen will hit the ground before the camera pans down btw
the hardest part about this is that there is a 5 frame window for a quickrise, and im having a hard time determining if im hittin on delayed quickrises or frame 1 quickrise.
Exact numbers, by my estimate:
Crane j.HP, mantis s.MP, TC2 xx LK Gekiro = 325 damage, gain of 201 meter.
Crane j.HP, mantis s.MP, TC2 xx Hands, FADC, s.MP, TC2 xx LK Gekiro = 383 damage, loss of 241 meter (+259 -500).
So a net gain of 58 damage, for a net cost of 442 meter. That’s bad, especially considering you would already get the same knockdown and push the opponent really far even without the FADC. I still mess with FADCs sometimes, but I usually regret it.
I use crossup wall dive setups off a Gekiro pretty frequently, but only off the finisher. The main thing that gives me trouble with them isn’t the timing, it’s that the opponent has to be REALLY far away from the corner for it to work. The important part is using the target combo to create consistent spacing - an FADC would only push the opponent farther towards the corner so it might not work.
Personally, I never liked crossup horizontal ball-style wall dives (I’ve used that description before myself, haha) because the timing is usually very difficult. In case you didn’t notice, the frame advantage off 5 kicks should depend on how high the opponent is after the last kick, so finding the right height for each character would be the important part.