^^^^nothing personal. more directed at the cry babies.
check that shit out tho. i need someone to co-sign so i know im not crazy
im only estimating on the data end of things. you were one of the ones measuring frame data right?
edit- i dunno now. i coulda been smoking the crack, but it feels the same after i tested it in vanilla.
sorry for the false alarm, but i dont remember normals coming out that quick after a stance change. oh well, back to my not posting
I only measure (and still am measuring) frame data for Supers and Ultras, just so I can explain why counter hit s.MP cannot combo into mantis U2. As for normals I totally depend on others.
I just tested the stance change cancel here, and i’m afraid it feels the same to me as well. I’m going to dig more into this on the training mode.
It doesn’t work? I thought it was possible in theory fighter.
Nothing has changed.
That’s because Gen’s normals have weird inconsistent properties on counterhit. Instead of the usual +3, mantis s.MP only gives an additional +2 on CH, making it +8. I think both c.MPs only give an extra +1 on CH, and mantis c.HP is only +2. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Ah, ty for explaining. That makes perfect sense. I guess Gen’s normals are one of the ‘exceptions’ then.
The more and more I play Gen I lean towards thinking that he is good in air VS ground or ground VS air, but not so well in ground to ground or air to air (average or lower imo), that could be simply my playstyle though.
Actually, I believe Gen’s strength is ground-to-ground.
His jump straight up is average.
Gen’s normals are super fast. 3-4-5 start-up frames light-strong-fierce respectively.
You can actually walk up to an opponent, and randomly throw out a st.mp and most likely it WILL be a counterhit. You can force people to jump that way, and AA them w/ Crane cr.hk =]
At least, that’s the way I play Gen.
EDIT: It helps that Gen’s st.mp has +3 frame advantage on block. So, you can bully your opponent that way into jump or doing a random srk, or reversal. Then, if you see it coming, you can do a guaranteed (if you have your combos down) AT LEAST 200 dmg. lol, and i’m saying that because (Crane) st.hp still does 200 dmg =] Otherwise, I punish w/ st.mp, st.mp, st.mk xx hands… and if I have meter, I FADC and do the same thing over again lol, it does a good 300+ dmg, less than 350. but still, you only need one or two good combo and Ultra/Super, and you win the round/match. Gen’s strength comes from being able to utilize both his stances.
In my case, when I want to run away, I use Crane stance because he’s REALLY fast. and I bully people that try to be aggressive w/ (crane) cr.mp xx roll. I can also bully them w/ Kara throws in Crane stance.
But again, that’s just me…
I’ll be glad to share my knowledge w/ you guys. I’ve been experimenting w/ Gen.
Trying to play him differently, other than his vanilla incarnation.
I’m not a fan of MKhands, although I DID use it in Vanilla.
Now, i’m more satisfied knowing I can constantly get counterhits in w/ st.mp.
All it takes is some risks, and not be afraid. If you lose to a random scrub online.
Don’t take it to heart. You don’t know those people. They mash reversals stupidly.
I bet if you got a good amount of sets in, you’d be able to predict their reversals.
and that, my friends, is where the REAL fun begins lol
I think Gen has great normals for ground to ground aswell, but nevertheless his air normals are pretty rad too. crane j.hp is one of the best moves to stuff air to air, and his mantis j.mp hits really deep as a air to ground move. What you say is actually why I stopped playing him. Too much risk for hardly any reward.
Yeah sure it’s great to read your opponent and punish accordingly, but that is a skill you should have with any character you play (alot can capitalize on damage much better than Gen can atm). Not to mention good opponents that actually know the matchup (so you can’t really cross them up randomly anymore, online it works on almost everyone) you rarely get to have such oppertunities like a whiffed shoryuken. Even if you do, the best you can do without super/ultra is around 220 ( s.mp s.hp lk gekiro not sure on dmdg values, also not countig fadc combos which suck anyway).
On the other hand I do miss him as a character and his general playstyle since I picked him up in A3, but I’d like to see some pro level play of him before I return to the old man(or he gets patches, which is unlikely). I just don’t see much potential at this moment.
+3 counterhit on Gen’s normals would be TOO awesome! =]
IF his st.mp had +8 frames on CH, wooooo! I could do SOOOO much lol
but that’s just in theory… hehe.
but in general, Mantis cr.hp is practically uncomboable on CH.
The +2 is perhaps meant to give you an edge on the offensive… It’s my guess.
If I can move a lot faster and a lot sooner than my opponent, that only limits his options.
All I saw was potential when I first started experimenting w/ him.
But then again, I may not have gotten too deep w/ Gen as you or anyone else that picked him up might have.
And it’s true, there’s little reward for a lot of risks. That’s the downside.
But he has options for every situation, I believe.
his (crane) cr.hp can punish backdashing opponents on wake-up.
(mantis) st.mp, and cr.hp and (crane) cr.hk work as AAs.
He has an overhead, and an underhead (crane) st.mp, and st.hp. respectively.
Most, if not all his mantis normals do not move his hitbox, so you can effectively punish ANYone’s pokes that whiff right in your face.
You can punish effectively w/ (mantis) st.hp. I’ve been able to punish Sim’s and Seth’s st.hp’s w/o ANY problem lol
(crane) cr.mk goes under fireballs. Good addition bcuz I hate his jump, but still, (crane) cr.mk can be punished if the opponent sees it coming, but that’s where the mind game comes in. hehehe…
He has a good reversal EX Geriko. It beats most DPs and headbutts lol, I think only Sagat’s DP is better than his EX Geriko.
In the corner, if you throw your opponent into it, you can do Oga and do the falling Oga or the cross-up Oga (falling oga to the right/left).
If you can do that effectively, you can literally put your opponent in a 50-50 situation. Nasty mix-up. BUT, you HAVE to do it as soon as they wake up, you can NOT give your opponent ANY time to think about which way to block, you have to make them guess. You can bully them really nasty this way lol
… did I miss anything, you guys?
So you see, Gen isn’t a straightforward character.
He does have weaknesses as many have been ranting about all day long lol
but I think Gen is suited for someone that likes to play mind games…
I don’t mean to try to prove anyone wrong, this is by far most if not all the notes i’ve taken about him.
I’d like to share my knowledge and help the Gen community.
So, help me out you guys =]
I do believe his hurt boxes make it harder for him to out poke some characters when both players poke at the same time. Pretty much any character can counter poke. What matters to me is being able to out poke. It seems he’s lost that in Super compared to vanilla. So I’ve had to change my game play. I still try and poke but I don’t as often.
I’ve actually wirtten quite some stuff about things like that (footsies and shenanigans) in the Gen Shenanigans thread, might be some interesting stuff there.
Another classic is throwing your opponent in the corner, and doing an Oga on the same side into ceiling drop kick LOL people never seem to comprehend what is going on when I used to do that.
Something just occured to me while practicing with Rufus. Back during his dev blog they talked about his dive kick. They were seriously going to nerf it’s function but in the end decided not to, as they said it was too big a part of his game to nerf, and decided to remove a measly 20 from its 90 damage. Heck, all he got was minor damage nerf, excluding EX messiah, that got hit hard. Also some say that J.HK has less priority.
How they justified hurting MK~Hands(and Gen) like this I’ll never know.
they also said they improve gen overall. /facepalm
I think buffing his normals and removing his MK Hands loop (even though I loved doing it) should’ve been the only thing changed for Gen. Arc should be the same, meter the same. Gekiro kicks really didn’t need to be changed. Oga escape should’ve stayed, wasted 1 ex bar and wasn’t that safe, it was just to get the hell out of there. If the other guy can’t get it through his head how to block the other way, that’s his problem.
WOW SSF4 sux on PSN. It’s so slow compared to XBL. Even offline inputs feel super lagged.
^ I havnt really noticed any changes offline from xbl and psn. But I havnt compared them really.
Ps: Holy crap I havn’t been on these Gen forums in a while. I wonder who still come’s on here from the good ol days.
I haven’t really tested his normals against other character’s normal if they’re pressed at the same time. but in theory, I believe that Gen’s st.mp has a lot of priority over a lot of character, especially Chun. In general, every character will have different normals, as would any fighter in real life. They gotta know when and how to use their range, speed, and attacks effectively. Same thing w/ Gen, and any other character.
Usually, the faster attack will always beat the slower attack (unless it has a weird hitbox and invincibility).
A lot of Gen’s normals have good ranges and effective ways to use them.
I see Gen as a Kung-fu master (obviously), but I try to use him the same way they portray Kung-fu masters in movies, where these masters wait until their opponent throws a punch, and they counter that shit and slap the hell out of them back.
That kind of stuff lol, if it makes any sense whatsoever.
That’s kind of the way i’ve adapted myself as a Gen player to use Gen.
And poke a lot with Gen, that’s where his strength comes from in my opinion.
Don’t forget that his rapid hand slap comes out in 3-frames. Technically, making it the fastest poke in the game. Use it wisely, man. You can mash it after a blocked st.mp, and if your opponent throws out a poke, they will get counterhit.
A lot of his mind games revolve around his st.mp due to his frame advantage.
USE IT =]
Well explained, that’s exactly what I was trying to get at when I mentioned Gen had a solid 50-50 set-up in the corner.
I couldn’t have explained it better myself =]
I agree w/ the jump-arc. Geriko kicks did needed to be changed in my opinion.
They were practically worthless in Vanilla unless you wanted to be fancy and combo into them like Yeb.
… I believe his EX Geriko is better than his escape move simply because it has the possibility of doing damage to your opponent.
And just like his escape move, it could be baited out and punished. At least in EX geriko’s case, you have a chance to do damage.
That is not to say you don’t have the opportunity to score damage w/ faster Oga’s, i’m just saying, it’s a better move in my opinion.
I still lurk, but this forum is a graveyard for new info on gen.
I’m still pissed at the dev blog that said gen could do things like combo into mantis u2 from WTF kicks RIGHT… -_-
I still play Gen though, cause its all I know lol