You can do that in Vanilla. but it’s always to refresh old information for the new kids on the block.
might be abel to negative edge the input after the initial kkk. it would theoretically be qcf+KKK(hold), qcf release KKK
EDIT: btw, on what planet is kens f+mk better than gens mk? it has 11 frame start up and cancels into nothing. thats focus bait if i’ve ever seen or heard of it. people gotta start responding to frame traps with fierce hands too. 3 frame safe reversal+push out=no frame trap in most cases
im also not seeing how gen has that many problems against fast fireball characters like shotos. you can duck under them, focus dash thru and sweep them, ultra over them or super thru them. the slow fireballers are much more of a problem imo. guile, chun, rose, and sim keep me out better than any shoto or sagat
^f+mk leaves you at frame advantage aswell as pushes you forward. + incredible lenght and kara throw ability. tho, it’s more an own tool but a poke.
according to the wiki, its -2 on block. he shouldnt really be beating you to the punch that often when you are sticking out something 6 frames faster in most cases (mantis mk, or crane cr.mp). maybe try neutral jumping it in addition to focus attacks if it seems that dominating
This goes without saying, but you can’t rely solely on mk xx hands in footsies with Ken. You also need to use Gen’s longer ranged pokes like mantis cr.hp and cr.hk. You want Ken to know that you can still hit him while he’s dancing outside your st.mk range.
^^^ i think that goes for every character speaking of ken.
is the opponent in kara throw range after a roll on hit?
I like colors #7, #10 and #11… I prefer taunt #6 and (I think) #2 (or whichever one turns his back to his opponent). Win quote is always #10.
BTW these threads have been awesome. I wish I had a console of my own (was stolen last year) so I could practice this stuff more often.
Right, I really don’t want to be Captain Catscratch of the USS Q.Q. More, but since we’re on the topic…
Gen didn’t just lose a combo in old mk hands, he lost a huge part of his offense. Mk hands did damage without meter, let him hitconfirm into sweep without meter, setup crossups and oga, and let him start and maintain offensive pressure at any point he could connect mk in footsies at other than max range. Which meant that the sligtest opening your opponent gave you could easily be exploited for big damage with or without meter.
You can buff his normals till the cows come home, you’re not going to get anything that equals that. Except for maybe some cows.
Without ex oga he has to guess on wakeup, and he doesn’t really have the health to be able to afford to play that game. I know what a lot of people are thinking - oh noes, Gen players finally have to guess on wakeup, welcome to the rest of the cast 2 years ago. But when you look at other low health characters that don’t have good reversals on wakeup, they all have seriously powerful advantages that necessitate that kind of flaw. I don’t think Gen does, at least not any more. If he’s going to be a footsies character, he needs to be free to actually play footsies most of the match, and not be stuck in wakeup pressure that he doesn’t have the health to take or reversals to get out of.
I’m not going to speculate on matchups, we don’t have enough data especially considering how few people play Gen. But it feels to me like he’s really low tier. Heck, even Makoto has a lot more tools than Gen now. Compare Gen to Akuma, Abel, Rufus, Dictator, Guile, Sagat, Ryu, or even Chun. Just think what Gen would do against Daigo playing Guile, or even Dieminion playing Guile, where you really don’t have any openings to exploit unless you force the opponent into making mistakes - and how are you going to do that against a top tier opponent with Gen? Unsafe jump spam and Oga shenanigans aren’t going to work.
Still, things could change, people could discover something new. Break it down, adjust the spacing, figure it out…
I’ll probably hold off on the bitch posts from now on, I just feel that, if Gen players raise enough of a ruckus, Capcom might be inclined to do something about it. After all they buffed Guile, and Gen’s situation now is the same or even worse than Guile’s was in vanilla IMO.
I like Gen thematically, and for the feel of his execution. Once a hands monster always a hands monster I guess, but even more than that, I felt that old Gen gave you exactly the tools you needed to compete at a high level, and nothing more than that. Great footsies, great reversal in EX oga, ability to do damage with or without meter, great focus attack, great backdash, best jump arcs in the game and crossups that were really hard to stop. He was really flashy, he took a lot of dedication - probably more dedication than any other character in the game - but it paid off in the end. Now, he’s a lot easier to use, but a lot of the tools that were viable at high level are gone, and you have to rely on shenanigans more to deal damage and more guessing to stay alive. In that sense, he’ a bit like Blanka now, but Blanka is still better in nearly every way.
What would I change, if I were to patch the character? Honestly, I’m nowhere near good enough to be able to definitively say that. Still, to start with, I would identify what we want Gen to be, since as I’ve posted before, right now he feels like he’s really lacking in direction. Then, once we know that, we can start tweaking his playstyle. But for a few bandaid fixes in the meanwhile, I would at least start with giving him some proper reversals - either give him the EX Oga escape back or make at least some of his Gekiros strike immune to the first active frame. Then up the damage and meter gain on his specials, maybe tweak his kara throw a bit to give it more range, and speed up his mantis sweep to 6 frames on startup, so he has a viable hitconfirm into sweep and can actually maintain some sort of offensive pressure.
catscratch his lk and ex gekiro does have strike invincibility, but they are really punishable. other then that i agree with most of your post.
oh wait if we do get a patch fix his damn meter and range on mk. but i been saying that forever.
We will probably never get a patch. Capcom never patches anything, they did not patch Vanilla and I don’t see much reason why they would now, especially not with such a niche character such as Gen. Like what, 5 people main Gen fulltime? But maybe there is hope, as Ono has stated that he is interested in adding characters via DLC. This might mean they will look at vital gameplay issues aswell. The tourney patch that came out today fixed bugs and glitches so… who knows.
The newest update patched things…
? Fei Long’s infinite combo loop against Juri will be removed.
? Counter hit damage on M. Bison’s (Dictator) Ultra 2 was too low, the life it takes off when it scores a counter hit will be increased.
I don’t think these are bugs. So you never know. But I think it’s still a long shot. If we keep complaining we might get something. It was funny though the past few fights I was able to build meter first round to almost super or super.
Yes but are they invincible to the first active frame? From Eventhubs frame data I see 4 frames of strike invincibility on all Gekiros, 5 frames startup for lk, 7 for ex. Is that frame data wrong?
[quote=catscratch;9058725What would I change, if I were to patch the character?[/quote]
Meter gain on specials, compared to Vanilla SF4, is something like 33% for Mantis and 66% for Crane. I’d change that to 75% for both stances, for starters. I’d give back Gen’s air throw, but that might be overdoing it. I’d change Mantis U2 so that the “rapid touches” did 200 real damage, and the final blow to the forehead did 200 focus damage (I’m not claiming that that would “fix” U2, but it would be a step in a better direction). The air throw and U2 change are probably unfeasible to implement through a patch. But hey, I can dream.
Why stop there? Give Fei Long a way to combo into U1 while you’re at it. Let Vega’s claw actually extend the range of his Sky High Claw. Makoto and Hakan… at the very least, they need a hug.
I don’t know why some people think patches are bad for a competitive game. More viable matchups means a more entertaining game for spectators, and that makes the game more viable as a spectator sport. It worked for Starcraft, and it’d work for a fighting game, but Capcom’s gotta pull their head out of their ass and at least try.
Catscratch there is no way in hell Makoto has more options than Gen. The only thing she does better than Gen is damage and stun. Otherwrise her footsies are worse, her defensive options are far worse, her crossup sucks, she’s hella susceptible to FAs, she’s even worse at getting around FBs. Think Guile is tough for Gen? Guile rapes her for free. She easily folds under offensive pressure–her only invincible move (EX Oroshi) has very few invincible frames. I dont care where Gen is on the tier list but she’s definitely below him.
For sure, Makoto is way too straightforward aswell, she has so few options. Sure her karakusa frametraps are a bitch damagewise but those can easily be avoided. Gen is such a better developed character than she is, definately. She hardly can defend against jumpins either, the only thing she has going for her is her (limited but strong) offense, and if you make sure you’re controlling the flow of the match she can’t do shit.
if you want wake up dps and teleports for ex meter, go play akuma. everyone in the game not named ryu ken or akuma can be exploited on wake up. everyone has to guess against higher level opponents, and not everyone has some “powerful advantage”. what is sims powerful advantage? sakura? guy? juri? makoto? fuerte? rose? claw? hakan? deejay?
on another note, gen still has amazingly good footsies. maybe only chun and balrog compare, and last i checked footsies is the key to your openings against high level opponents, so there you go. and guile beats just about every non fireball character, and goes even with most others with fireballs, so i dont see your point there. oh, and btw, gen still has the hitconfirms into sweep that work against about the same number of opponents as mkxxhands, sweep did in vanilla. i posted it in the combo thread 2 days ago.
i think the real problem is that people stopped developing with gen in vanilla after mk hands fadc combos were discovered. or maybe that is all that vanilla gen had going for him, who knows. ive said it before, and its worth repeating, this is a totally different character than the one you played in vanilla. aside from animations, almost everything is different. hitboxes, invincibility, startup and recovery frames are almost all entirely different in one way or another.
i feel like if you arent going to try and develop anything new, and only want to cry about mk xx hands, and how good things were in vanilla, you should gtfo. theres 34 other charcters, and at least 16 have completely developed meta games for you to dive into rather easily. maybe ssf4 gen is just not for you
I’m still looking for a way to use crane s.LK and mantis j.LK. I was thinking if anybody could help me on this. Tbh I cannot find good use for these two normals, both theoretically and experimentally.
well, j.lk can cross-up if it helps, but it’s practically useless since j.mk also works as a better cross-up.
But, there might be a mind game to it. j.lk gives less stun on hit than j.mk, so you can bait out reversals, and beat out their reversals w/ EX Geriko…
and btw, dont ever use (crane) st.lk, just don’t lol
only use it if you know you will KO the opponent on hit lol
posting even tho i said i wouldnt anymore, but i found something else new to me.
if i recall correctly in vanilla, any time you naked stance changed, there was an annimation pause. so if, for example you were in mantis, and you needed crane anti air for characters with steep angled jumps like chun or blanka, you were almost always not going to be able to change before getting hit if you switched on reaction to them leaving the ground.
this is different in super. you actually cancell most of the stance change animation with whatever your next button press is. so instead of kkk, d+hk either getting stuffed or trading unfavorably after changing stances on reaction, the d+hk comes out almost as fast as you can press the buttons. the frame delay isnt nearly as severe
the reverse is true if you are in crane and you want to use your sweep. you could hit d+PPP, d+HK, and seemingly sweep from crane without much delay
footsies just became broken again. speed walk + mantis normals+ cure all non wake up AA= S tier ground game
EDIT: after more checking, the 2-3 frames of delay are removed what seems like completly if you stay either standing or crouched thru the change period
i still hate you all
lol I guess nobody got a good idea on using crane s.lk. Ty for the info.
I don’t remember doing anything to make you hate me, but I do know it’s impossible to make everybody like me, or not hate me. :smokin:
That’s a good info to know. So instead of 5 frames it’s now down to 2~3 frames before we can cancel a normal out of stance change?
Not sure if this is the same way as vanilla, but I’d just like to add that crane s.LP xx c.LP can be mashed out with SRK in between two attacks on block. I just saw someone do this to me after a blocked cross-up j.MK and went back to training instantly to prove this. In one way this is bad, in the other way if an opponent mashes out non-strike invincible crap, it’ll count as a counter hit.
Same goes with crane s.LP mash on block. SRK or ultra can be mashed out in between.