You won’t find any good Griffon match at Howard Arena : they sure pull some flashy reversals and such with him but they don’t play him efficiently so yes he gets raped
@Tea: You should incorparate cr. b, cr. c xx super and st. a, cr. c xx super into your game. Seriously, everytime we play, I never see you do it.
I got a question myself. Is there a time where you can’t block when you land from a jump? How long does that last? I remember I timed a punch super with Gato during the animation from landing from a jump and it hit clean.
Appreciate the answer.
Yes, there is supposed to be a delay as you land from a jump…but the delay is small, and most people take advantage of this by using the whiff jumpin, land and throw lag tactic. Also those one(3?) frame supers are weird…I’m sure you remember what we tested…Gato f+A overhead into qcfx2+P. The combo meter did not increase, but it still comboed.
Yes there are landing frames where you cannot block when you land, but its a small window like Emil mentioned. Also yes there are plenty of moves that cause a strange stun where any super can land after it without comboing. Like Gatos qcb + B/D, into C overhead attack also like mentioned his f + A. Also Grants d + B/D as well has that same effect, I believe it has something to do with recovery from the stun animation. From there going into the block animation, there should be a frame there where the block frame doesn’t happen fast enough. So most of any super done quick enough will usually land no matter what, it’s just weird like that. As for great Tizoc matches I haven’t really seen any great Tizoc matches from the HA guys at all. Sooner or later we will record more matches from our Garou meetings that wehave here in SoCal.
As for Dong strats just learn to do his combos consistanly, like some of the ones CooCoos mentioned those are handy. Learn his crossups and learn to rush well with him as well, using feint cancels to the max. Even though Dong has a lot of air attacks and such it’s good to learn some poking with him as well. His stand A is great and fast beats a lot of small jumps that you can see coming at you. Stand C if you think they will jump straight up as a wake up option, time it correctly to hit them out of their attack. Build meter with qcf + B or DP + A/C into break (A+B) or small jump back into d + B/D. Use his DP + A/C into break carefully as he has some slight delay afterwards from doing it. Most of his combos should already be in the wiki but I’ll check and see if all of them are there. Hope this helps out.
Forgot to say that I’m an artist as well if you didn’t know Tea.
Oh yeah, another cool Dong tidbit as well: when you knock someone down, run and then do a low jump back + c like the japs do. Then combo/mixup from there.
You know, the hitstun in this game is just crazy as well. I remember getting hit by Jenet’s qcb + k on the ground, and I recovered in time to reversal super. Crazy crazy stuff. I do remember that test session we did though Emil. Found some good stuff I remember.
Thanks for the help guys. I guess I don’t use c.B c.C super because online it’s diffucult for me to hit confirm it and I hate wasting meter. And short jump b+C is difficult on people who tech roll a lot and my supers seem to land near in a corner a lot. Yeah, I know I dont stay on the ground enough. I played this french dude, Sie, the other day. His Dong had incredible execution and had frames down perfectly so that almost anything besides backdashing would get stuffed.
Feinting a lot is something I’ve always known I need to do because of his unsafe specials, but I just haven’t broken my bad habits yet. I’ll get it down.
Thanks again guys!
(Well, Noc, maybe we can trade some time ^^)
Another question… Are there startup frames for a backdash? I have difficulty with it, but I play this mean Rock (ace_uno) who destroys me with backdashing. He evades so much, but then I get stuffed. Is my timing bad? Do cetain characters have different startup?
The fact that you are doing two normals (crouch B, then crouch C), is supposed to make it very easy to hit confirm. And if it happens that they block it, cancel to qcb+B/qcf+D, or just feint cancel and do whatever. Close D(1 hit), feint, crouch B, crouch C, qcfx2+B also works (and is even easier to hit confirm). Using close C instead of close D does not work so well for that combo/string. CLose D doesn’t seem to push you back as far, allowing you to do more feint cancels before a far D comes out.
I know about this too but…does it work with both kick versions? And only instant supers will be able to punish that, right?
I played with Lando last night, and before him, I only knew that you could do it after the lk version. I got hit with the hk version of Jenet’s qcb + k, and after the second hit, I recovered fast enough to counter with a Zero Kiba. So I would say that it works with both versions of it, provided that you get hit with it on the ground first. And if it works with that, then it should work with all instant supers.
I’m gonna try and test some stuff today when my buds come over here, or when I play online later though. I’m kinda curious as to what I can punish and all with my lil insta super and ish.
Question though, when fighting Jenets with Gato, what’s the best thing to guard cancel into when I just defend the third hit of Jenet air down + k?
What is Zero Kiba?
Probably qcb+D, B, then do the DM as they fall.
Well thing to remember when you JD it is to watch out and make sure they don’t go for the 4th as you GC. Chances are you will end up whiffing Jenet all together with the QC cause she will swing with her kick behind you. But if they tend to only use the 3 hit d + B/D then just JD then GC into what Emil already mentioned or qcf + A then A or dp + B/D into break, wait then qcfX2 + A/C or just do dP + D without breaking it if you prefer that. If you have the super go for qcb + B/D, then B then super or dp + B/D into break, then super.
Also from what I can make out from the Garou mook it seems that backdashes have a 2-3 frame start up. I can’t read japanese though but it just seems like that to me, I’m not very good with the frame data stuff.
thanks for the help homies
Any tips for an anti-Jennet with Tizoc?
bend over?
Well, I’ll beef up my post later but I don’t see any specific anti-jenet strat with Tizoc. What I mean is : if you play your bird correctly, it doesn’t change much being against Jenet or Dong… or about anyone else ! I’m not saying it’s easy either. Just that the Bird being meant to be played quite differently from the rest of the cast you more or less end up with the same problems and the same anwsers (on top of the basics for him, like following up anything that can be followed up). From my point of vue it always comes down to :
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range control (and obviously knowledge of what to do at each range, I made a post some pages ago about that, look for post #367 is you haven’t read it yet -which I doubt- there were some good Tizoc comments in the following posts too)
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"which move do I use to have the best chance to win an exchange, especially if I’m attacked and react a tad too slow"
Basically know which of your moves have good hitboxes and possible frame advantage (or priority, call it what you want). This will tell you which moves to use as soon as you’re not in full control in the situation.
More specifically, theses moves are the ones to use when attacked and not JDing. One of your best friends in that field is d+AB : very fast, very safe, upper-body invicibility frames… more than often the right move to pull out when someones tries to close the distance and you don’t want to. -
how do I punish (clearly not everyone can pull GC’d justice hurricanes at will)
- Learn to JD (obvious anyway with the bird, be it only to gain life a fireball range and annoy your opponent)
- Then learn to use fast GCed specials (i.e justice hurricane, small poseidon wave…). Why fast? Because GC give you a huge frame advantage but can be still punishable if the special is inputted late in the GC window and has some stratup…
- If consistent GC is out of reach, learn at least to fill up some basic punishement (ex: standing C is damage heavy and reasonably safe, though not 100% safe, you’re warned!)
- experiment! Though some possibilities are always better, they may be out of reach or not safe enough, etc. In the end it’s you who are playing.
- what do I do when I’m cornered?
- The Bird normally can survive about any rush ONCE without guard crush, so use that to your advantage : be it short as hell, there always a little pause at the end of a rush, because there’s the full recovery of the last move if it has some and anyway, even with feint chains, there opponent has necesarily stepped back a bit. So in the worst case, turtle and wait for your chance
- There’s no red parry but you can dare try a JD when turtling : if it fails you’re busted but if it works you’ve just broken out of the rush and have the advantage. This is a serious option, at the very least if you know you’ll be guard crushed in one or two hits anyway (you don’t have anything to lose).
- what do I do when I’ve been floored? how do I counter on wake-up?
- if the opponents stays right next to you, buffering a small justice hurricane for the wake-up is more than 95% guaranteed succesful.
- if the opponent is smarter and takes one step back that’s another story. Basically if he doesn’t use overheads be ready to JD/guard down, if he uses some… well do our best! But basically you can still try to buffer a JD and guard immediately after. It’s not 100% safe, it’s not easy to do either but it’s about 100% efficient if he charges as soon as you wake.
- if he takes like two or three steps back : get ready to JD just in case but you’re safe enough to either go to him with some d+AB or wait and see or anything else
- if he tries to setup a fireball on your wakeup… then please just JD that shit.
The main problem with Jenet (as well as a few others) is that she has some good air control. That means that either both of you jump and you’d better be quicker than her and/or simply grab her if you’re close enough or only she jumps and it’s kinda harder. The Griffon lacks some really good anti-air. depending on the range, you may want to JD/step back/d+AB (or whatever else you feel good enough). I don’t see any universal solution to the problem unfortunately.
Now anyway, I’ve written all of this as I remember it since I’m at work now so there may be some mistakes in it (though I don’t think so) so try for yourself and if someone sees something to be corrected just let me know.
Me and CoosCoos tested something with Kevin…close A, qcf+B, break, run up slightly, repeat…I don’t remember how many repetitoins we did, but he was unable to get out of block stun. So technically that would be one guard crush combo that you will be unable to get out of…even moreso if done against Tizoc since his hitbox is big. Since you don’t get out of block stun, I don’t think you can JD in between.
Yeah, when we tested, I tried to JD the pattern, with the st. a after the dash in. The breaked keeps them in blockstun long enough that it cannot be jd’ed. Also, it takes about four to five reps to guard crush a person. However, the key to keeping them locked is the dash in st. a. If you are off just by a little, they can probably out prioritize you.
Hope that helps.
That’s nice to know !
for Tizoc, standing and croucing lp is beastly. Bugs the heck out of me. And if it turns into a poking match, tizoc usually comes out on top because of his high stamina. Probably posted before, and I’m hardly an expert, but here’s some other stuff that always gets me…
*abuse low jump HK then low jump command throw
*GC’d command throw after reset
*feint canceled normal into command throw
*patience-use his high stamina and don’t give them the opportunity to deal big damage, but at the same time don’t let them rush you down.
This only works online. Dash into command throw is alot deadlier but not many can do it.
There are ways to get out of that actually, backdash or JD the next set correctly. If the Kevin is smart though they usually try going for command grab after the dash in instead. Even though more most people its hard to get out of that pattern but you can escape from it.
As for Tizoc learn to use his feint cancels as tick throw setups as well, like stand A/B feint with f + AC then 360 + A/C or d + AB. Since his f + AC gives him invicibility if timed correctly, he can even go through certain supers and fireballs with it. One thing that I thought was pretty neat when playing a friend of mine offline. He loves doing JD into GC on wakesup when he JDs the right normal poke. What I did with Tizoc was on wake up Stand B, f + AC, from there he JD the stand B then GC into qc b+ A with Jenet. Since I cancelled the recovery of the stand B into the f + AC feint the GC special whiffed me totally from the f + AC invicibility during its animation. Then it was just a free command grab,etc. I wouldn’t rely on that too much though cause chances of them doing a wake up super is pretty high at times if your real close or even a backdash on wakeup. Everyone has already pointed out some good pointers for Tizoc, figured I’d add something to those pointers. Also don’t be afraid to use Tizocs TOP attack from a distance as 2 usually pretty much on everyone causes Guard Crush.