No.
Tiers mean little in Garou because all tiers are (very) close to one another.
Paging Nocturnal, please pick up the white courtesy phone…
There’s a number of inaccuracies in your analisys of Kain, but I’ll let the expert tackle them. Kain’s got some mean tricks up his sleeves.
He’s only bottom tier because I can call him a flaming bastard without gays getting angry.
First thing is Garou is all about skill there is no real tiers, even though yes some characters have better combo options and what not than others. Besides all that it comes down to knowing your opponent and knowing your character when in the middle of a match. As for Kain his main problem would be the fact that hes a charge character but charges in Garou are real easy to pull off. Since charges are like a 1 second charge so they are very common to pull of at will. You can cancel Kains d, u + B or D special into a down B. The timing is kinda tricky to get down but I’ve been able to pull it off pretty consistant now. Another think to really know with Kain is his down + AB into C chain, since it gives you a free super or special move after it. It’s also good for when doing guard crush strings in the corner since you can feint cancel after the C whether it hits or not. Kain also has some really nice crossups with his C or D, mainly his C since it pushes them in a bit when it hits. But his D it overall better because it beats out most specials and or supers depending the angle it hits. Heres a good cross up combo mid screen for ya:
Jump C/D, stand A, charge d then u + B, break, charge b to f + B.
You have to use the charge tricks like in SF when you charge as you jump then hit A into neutral then press u + B. Reason I break his d to u + B is because it takes more damage then if you would break with his D version.
Kain has a great throw especially in the corner since you can combo it into any of his specials/supers just about. Funny thing also with Kain is that I mainly rush with him and barely use his fireball specials. Though that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use them, they come in handy sometimes for like jump happy people. Everyone uses characters in their own style so just go for what works best for you. If you need any more info on Kain related stuff let me know, cause I have plenty of other nifty stuff. I’m putting all the new stuff on the Garou Tutorial that is being worked on still. So once its out everyone should be pretty pleased with it hopefully. As for the DC version: it has sound problems, Terrys train stage lags when your in going through the bridge part, timings are different to certain things like breaks/faints/combos/Just Defend, theres suppose to be missing frames from what I heard. Overall though its still playable on the DC version even at high level play, same thing for the PS2 version it is not arcade perfect either. Take care.
First off, I say hats off to you guys for learning and playing a game that a lot of people consider “dead”. I love MOTW - I wish more peeps would open their minds to SNK.:rock:
Now, stupid Question time!
AES and MVS should be the same in terms of gameplay, but I have heard some people say MVS isn’t a perfect port to AES. Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks.
EDIT: I am planning on either getting an MVS or an AES system, and I was just wondering cuz Garou is what I will be playing the most. Also, do you guys know if the AES has any suicide batteries like CPS2? Thanks again.
As far as tiers are concerned, it’s not really an issue in this game. This is one of THE most well balanced fighters ever made… period. Sure, some characters have some advantages over others, but there is no one character that has such an overwhelming advantage over all others that they are almost unbeatable. In terms of tiering, I would say that Kevin is at the top, everyone else is somewhere in the middle and Tizoc or Freeman would be at the bottom. The bottom line in this game comes down to your skills (NOT tiers).
As for Kain, the way he’s played depends on the players. Some people like to go projectile happy, break happy, etc, but different people will play him differently (sounds ridiculously simple, yet so many people miss this: not everyone will fall under a certain “style” of playing). It’s true that being a charge character may pose a challange at times, but really good players use all kinds of charge tricks to make it seem as tho Kain never needs to charge (people like Noc 
).
Admittedly, the DC version will probably feel the most off when compared to the MVS ver MAINLY because of the speed. The DC ver is somewhat slower overall, but still very playable. Just don’t mess with really screwed up emu versions (the ones with a whole bunch of infinites).
Keep Play’n. Peace
Both the AES/MVS are the same, though there are some funky MVS version such as the prototype/fixed versions. The majority of websites mainly offer the legit arcade version that everyone plays on the MVS, so you shouldn’t really worry much. Though the main difference is the price for both since the AES version goes for like $400 up and the MVS price is like $90 up. It all depends if you want used or brand new copies also. Good luck with getting the game and its great to see others interest in Garou. Yes this game does not get look upon as a great fighter, since not many people have actually taken their time learning the game. Hopefully in EVO '06 once we get everything planned for the Garou tourney we plan on hosting in the BYOC (if there is one this year). There should be a pretty decent turn out even better than '04 and '05, at least that will be our goal. Take care.
Something I’ve been meaning to test and finally got around to it. Here’s a quick list of characters for everyone to memorize:
Kevin
Tizoc
Marco/Butt
Why these three? Everyone should know that the frame advantage of a A+B overhead or down+AB evasion attack is better for the attacker, if the attack is blocked. If the attack hits, then the attacker is usually at a frame DISadvantage. Except for, you guessed it, those three.
Why do you care? If your character has a 0 frame super (Rocks D super, either of Grants, Marco’s or Hotaru’s kick supers, either of Gato’s punch supers, Kevin’s D super, Marco’s hidden super, or either of Tizoc’s punch supers), then you have a guaranteed punishment opportunity from a slow overhead attack, except for those three little names. If you’ve built up the reflexes to block high when you see one coming, you can certainly build them up to just keep the stick at d/b, let it hit, twitch your qcfx2 while in hit stun, and reversal them into submission. Since most leave the attacker at -1 on hit, get used to pulling the super off as a reversal, or its as good as blocked.
This is information my Grant needed to know, hope y’all find it usefull.
Notes: All were tested against Dong. Hotaru’s kick super was very flaky, always hitting, but usually reseting the opponent in the air so they langed on their feet and blocked the dive to naughty animation. Only about 1 in 5 would actually connect to the naughty animation. There are many other supers that should be 0 frame according to Howard Arena, that for some reason just don’t make the list. They would end up blocked every time. B. Jenet’s kick supers, Hokutomaru’s D super, Rocks hidden super, Dong’s hidden super. I was afraid it was a PS2 version bug or change, but so far Kawack’s is showing the exact same results.
MVS and AES is identical , as far as the gameplay is concerned… Except for the surviavl mode in MVS, but there’s a way around that… 
No suicide batteries in the MVS system. Best way to get these games is to “consolize” an MVS mobo, then you can get the games for cheap ( a bare MVS MOTW cart should be under $50 )
http://www.h5.dion.ne.jp/~h.arena/douga.htm
Since Kain is the subject, here’re some Kain Guard Break strings from howard arena. If this has been posted before… sorry. The link says 1/22 so maybe it’s new or it’s the 1 or more year aniversary. :party:
Thanks Nocturne and Anachron for the feedback! Just one more question - Is it possible to play Kain or Grant in Survival mode for the MVS?
I lied, one more - Can you put an AES cart into an MVS system?
You can’t use an AES cart in an MVS system… You can use an MVS cart in an AES system with a converter though, although some carts are not comaptible…
I’m sure you can though I never really played much on Survival Mode to tell you the truth. Since you do still pick a character that means you can input the code for Kain or Grant. I’ll have to test it out and make sure but I’m sure you can. Take care.
Nevermind, Nocturne - I got it to work. I am dumb.
Garou doesn’t need tiers, although some ppl do tiers, they’re just their own opinion on those characters (I have made my own tier list myself). Garou is VERY balanced that each character can hold on his own & like Nocturnal said, if you’re bad with one character, another person will do better with that character- so as you can see it’s skill.
OK, sorry for asking this again, but are the differences in the PS2 port other than the word ‘Guard Cancel’ not popping up?
yes there are timing issues on the PS2 version like for certain breaks and faint cancels, compared to the MVS arcade version. Overall its not a bad port though a lot better than the DC version as far as the sounds and lag on Terrys stage. The PS2 version does have a great training mode so that you can play agains’t a AI while in training. Good for learning to JD certain things like special moves or supers. I still prefer the MVS port all the way since its a lot easier to pull of everything on it and its 100% arcade perfect. Enough with the tiers already we have explained that many many times, its all SKILL period. Take care.
Is the Gato corner loop feasible in real play? I mean the qcb+B,B repeat until they are too low then do dp+A and super. It looks pretty hard, but I don’t know if it is just hard and needs practice or it is “get a programmable stick” hard.
OK one more thing about the PS2 version & it’s concerning Gato- How many :qcb:+:snkb:, :snkb: follow-ups can you do? IIRC some hacked versions of Garou allowed you to do 4.
You can do 4 on the normal version from what I know.
Edit: I know nothing about these MVS/AES that all of you speak of, but you can do 4 of those Gato moves in the set 1 version of the rom, which from what I know is the normal arcade version.
You can do 4 on all versions of Garou pretty much with Gato, the timings are different for each version but it’s possible. Even 5 off a counter hit but it’s pretty difficult to pull off consistant, hard enough doing the 2-3 in a real match. Take care.
alright guys
i just read this entire thread front to back
i am practicing my bnb’s wit kevin rite now
i want to know more practical stuff about pokes, matchups, etc
specifically what are his best pokes
and more “theory” based stuff like air to air
or even to go in the air at all
and feasibility of his qcb+d roll in an actual match
it just seems real easy to spot comin
also…whats the limitations of being thrown out of qcb+a,c
i think also we should let this thread die and start another with the first page or two being frame data for each char and bnb’s
sorry if i came in hear bossing shit around but it just took so long to sift through everything.