"Ganbare, Necro: bottom-tier up!"

Classic Fighting Games Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike
1

Hi everybody. I decided to try to make a new strategy thread, with IParryU’s reassurance it’s worth a try to breathe more life into the Necro section of the forum, and the thread title is his suggestion :slight_smile: I’m STILL sorta a noob cos of my random skill level as I tend to improve in some areas at the expense of remembering older strats, AND sometimes I can beat the best players in my area.

The purpose of this thread–intended, and so willing–is to make sort of a “progress report” of match-ups in terms of playing certain characters and presumed superior players. My matches mostly focus on the So. Cal area, such as UCLA and FFA for my main comp. I realize we’ve talked in great length already about match-ups, but since they’re not set in stone, I hope this thread will breed inspiration, as well as provide for an entertaining read. PLEASE…feel free to share your own experiences of frustrating losses and satisfying wins, etc.

This is LONG, but I’m still revising my thoughts.

I’d like to start off, of course, by listing my own current progress–even up to TODAY. This will be psychological as well as generally analytical, as I will mention my strengths and weaknesses when it comes to both match-ups and my playing habits & style. I will also TRY to focus on specific details (hopefully useful) and observations, rather than talk about the general strategies we are all thoroughly familiar with, against certain characters. I have been improving somewhat against players using Urien (esp. him), Makoto, Akuma, and even Yun, to a small extent. I have ironically been having more problems with Ken players, despite having felt he was easier for me to beat than the aforementioned.

Urien: I have been doing better at avoiding getting thrown into the corner when cornering him first, so I’m not getting juggled and, er…“unblockableD” to death: PHEW! I also like to bait him to try to throw me toward the corner when he’s in the corner: I simply walk toward him and, the moment I usually go for a throw, I walk back a little–out of his throw range–and look for a whiffed grab animation. I lately have been pretty successful at connecting b+hp, db+hp, SAI after the attempted grab (today included lol). I have NEVER had anyone parry the b+hp when they’re cornered, to my recollection. On the other hand, a friend of mine said I’m turtling too much again when he picks Urien, and I HATE playing a boring turtler game (at least in casuals, and casuals are usually all I play, but we can learn from taking those suspected big risks during casuals, eh?). I usually try to build up meter and work on my reaction time to Urien’s fireballs (jump-in mp over the ground sphere; st. hp under the air-sphere). I also try to make sure I tech his throws (esp. when I’m cornered). I seldom try to grab him when he’s on wake-up, and esp. when he’s cornered and has meter for Aegis. OHHH: so it appears I’m focusing on his throw a lot: avoiding it, teching it, and baiting it to my advantage lol–it scares me THAT much. I’m considering using SAIII in this match-up because it makes it tough for him to throw out his projectile at nearly any time and makes it easier to close in and pressure him, but I’m HORRID w/ SAIII…working on it, though!

Yun: I try to bait him w/ Necro’s drill kicks. I poke at him a lot w/ cr. wk, b+wk up close, and often try to use drill kicks to push him back during Genei-Jin (VERY risky, but I try to be unpredictable and bait stuff I might be able to air-parry, such as GJ-activated dash punches (name? qcf attack). I use b+mp a lot against him when I think he’s too far to grab me (normal grab) and b+hp him when I think he’s gonna dive kick again, but I try to be cautious.

Makoto: I’ve noticed that I can hit my friend Mike Z w/ wp Denpas (shock) when he dashes in with her. I use more wps and wks against her than most characters, to slow her advances. I also poke her from afar w/ cr. mk and bait her to jump in by crouching and faking the attempt to use it.

Akuma: I get to play JR a lot more these days; thankfully. I’ve been improving at parrying his dive kick at the right time that I’m able to parry into cr. wk, SAI. I’ve noticed that he in particular likes to go for another dive kick or a demon flip after hitting me previously, and when I’m crouching, so I think I’ll fake the crouch & attempt to activate super and instead go for another parry or block and see if he jumps back again, in which case I could try b+hp. I like to corner him for grab, st. mp, SAI, but try to be wary if he’s about to attempt to demon me out of being cornered by me. I use drill kicks up close when I think he’s gonna throw, so I hit him out of the grab animation (same as Ken). He doesn’t spam ground hurricanes on me much these days, but if he keeps trying, I might try to parry them, but I can’t get him to go for the dp reversal if I try to throw him behind me (the normal grab/hurricanrana grab, as opposed to the suplex normal grab) up close after blocking it (i.e., if he does a dp, it will hit me EVERY TIME, as far as I remember). I can’t help but wonder if JR just goes easy on me during casuals (though he seems to play seriously/cautiously during the near conclusion to close matches).

Ken: DAMN…what happened to me here? I’m getting double-uppercutted a lot mid-screen and when cornered by good players who instinctively know when to dp-counter my limbs. I get cornered a lot and if he has meter I often fall prey to different throw set-ups (st. wp or cr. wk tick or whiff into throw, delayed throw, walk a step back and throw, etc.), and I’m usually in block-stun, so I have to get better at tech-throwing after block-stun (after wake-up too). If I whiff the throw, he does dash back, cr. mk XX SAIII, and that’s REALLY annoying, or he does multiple cr. wks into SAIII. I have fear and need to work on my tech-timing. I also have to watch out for cr. wk, st. wp, wp DP x2 :frowning: Today I started dealing w/ the corner problem toward the end of my playing for the day by simply not getting cornered, and pushing him back w/ cr. wk and cr. mk pressure. I like st. mp and esp. b+mp on him when I think he’s gonna throw me but might be out of range (sorta like Yun, but it seems safer cos he’s not that fast, and I don’t seem to get DP’ed in this situation…). I also like it when Ken empty-jump crosses up on me and I go for b+hp x2, although sometimes they parry, in which case I go for the 'rana grab or parry his jump-in attack (if he goes for it) and try b+mp. I also go for wp denpa against the empty-jump cross-up (seldom parried, but if so, continue mix-ups attempts while he’s still airborne). I think b+mp, X wp spin punch (tornado hook?) is good anti-air but it depends on positioning (how deep the empty jump-in is) if I decide to use it or just go for an oddly-timed spin punch. When Ken is full-screen away and I suspect a jump, I’ll go for st. hk to try to knock him out of the jump, but I guess players seldom jump from full-screen :stuck_out_tongue: (confusion factor and pretty safe for them?). When Ken jumps in from somewhat far away, I attempt an oddly-timed cr. mp in case the player forgot about that move (I seldom use it).

HABITS/Playstyle in general: I have a VERY weird Necro, but I try to play aggressively (not be a boring turtle, cos the point is not just to learn/improve, but have/be fun while playing). I sometimes try to set up resets for SAI w/ st. b+mk/b+mp, mk/hk drill kicks (while pressuring/closing in on players), jump-in w/ nearly any button except hp/hk, etc. I tend to go for too many wp spin punches up close after a blocked drill kick, and this often gets parried. I try to replace it w/ differently-timed regular grabs, but it usually gets teched! I also have to be careful about getting predictable w/ drill kicks themselves. I also sometimes get hit by opponents waking up if I try for cr. wk X wp spin punch. I’m thinking of trying to replace it more often w/ the b+wk, st. mp chain. I need to learn when to go for UOH as well (timing more than positioning, such as on a cornered foe. I would like to connect more Snake Fangs on opponents as well (actual command grab, this time). I suppose the best time to use it is to cancel it off of b+mp if I realize fast enough that the opponent’s crouching when hit by b+mp(my opponents usually block it if it’s right after they blocked the b+mp).

I guess that’s it for now. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I hear it’s important to learn to fight the CHARACTER, and not the player, but at the same time, I’m trying to find the best players in my area for the best improvement potential on my part…

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good job man. i just need time to read your whole post… nice start though

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LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OMG…rinse, repeat. This was my reaction to reading what you guys read. I’m SO grateful you guys think I have some good ideas and points. I also love to mention that I play Necro in an odd way, and that probably means the risks I take are unrealistic indeed.

NOTE: I edited my topic starter post 1 more time, cos I screwed up what I meant. I meant that I will try to focus on more subtle match-up problems I have, instead of pointing out universal, obvious difficulties: this is somewhat subjective/based on experience, so it’s debatable and can be pursued once the specifics have been addressed. I ALSO reworded and added to the Urien and Ken sections to avoid some potential confusion and build on what I said.

I felt like I said a lot, and I proofread and took my time, but when I read it, it didn’t seem like that much [almost like I accidentally deleted/forgot some of what I said/thought, but I don’t think that happened :)].

Batou: it’s funny you mentioned the youtube thing, cos I was thinking of mentioning examples from other players’ matches and JP matches that I draw upon for inspiration or overall strats, YET…I have at least 1 friend who has recorded our matches in the past, and maybe next time, I can get him to put MY matches on youtube lol.

I also realized I could have mentioned a lot more about each match-up, but didn’t want to seem overwhelming, and I have other match-ups I want to mention, but the ones I talked about are most common for me. I’m not sure if anybody here has played Mike Z or JR Rodriguez (at least, not recently?), and there are some matches of them playing other Necros online (some Necros who also post on srk).

I just hope that my weaknesses are relatable, so as I improve in some areas, other players will follow suit :slight_smile:

I will post more soon. ~Nick

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I’d like to give IparryU, Batou, and anyone else a chance to catch up on what I said, so for now I’ll just mention a few more general strats that are part of my mix-up game.

Firstly, a personal weakness I have is forgetting that some players (and esp. some characters, like Oro or Chun) LOVE to walk/dash under my jumps. They then attack w/ a low, super-cancellable poke, a poke that is jugglable, or PERHAPS a poke that can oddly be comboed into a special while I’m still airborne/AA in this case (e.g., perhaps st.mp X Alex’s knee-grab thingie or cr. mp, X Yun’s “up-kicks”/bicycle kick dp).

I LOVE wake-up normal grab (hurricanrana grab) for its range, stun, and for cornering or positioning purposes. I sometimes get 2 in a row. It seems relatively safe for him to do, compared to other characters (Urien seems to go for delayed wake-up grabs a lot as well).

Sometimes I like to use attacks in ways that might be risky but are mostly meant to confuse players because I’m using them for what seems NOT to be their intended purposes. I like to use overheads for AA, for instance. I sometimes try a Flying Viper (and a rare Rising Cobra) on ppl empty-jumping as they try to close in on me or set up throws (it throws off their parry timing too), but it must be added to an extensive mix-up game in that context already, as I partially hope they just forget about it as an option or if they’re playing too defensively or trying to parry too much. Since it’s a special, that also means 3 different buttons with 3 dif parry timings and perhaps dif ranges (I’m assuming the range for the Flying Viper varies per button, at least, among other specials: it’s not obvious like the Tornado Hook).

I’m not sure how practical this is, but it’s worth a try once, at least: if you can anticipate which whiffed pokes an opponent will try, perhaps going for a mp spin punch could punish them (depending on the range and recovery time for those pokes). Part of the reason I mention this is I notice some JP players like Sugiyama seem to connect spin punches as a sort of anti-whiff, and even more commonly, the mp Tornado Hook is used after a parried b+mp/b+mk when the other player tries to punish you with a ground combo that has little priority and speed. I have a friend who’s a great player (beats the best in the U.S. though he seldom gets to play them; doh!), and in old mirror matches, he would somehow connect the mp Hook on me on its own. I wish I could remember what I was doing before it, but I think he was using its range to punish my whiffed/missed pokes.

When it’s worth it, doing an SAI against projectiles or super projectiles (Oro’s 5-hit version of the Yagyou Dama, at least) to absorb it and punish with the remaining SAI hits might make them think twice about using super and subsequently wasting it (although in this case Oro has 3 stocks so trying this could be an act of desperation for a comeback or just when you have a big lead in hp and you want to maintain it, and at least Necro builds meter pretty fast).

Other practical ways to blow SAI (when getting the full or near-full damage isn’t the purpose) include cancelling off a b+hp or b+hp, st.mp/b+mp against an opponent who missed the cross-up air-parry (ONLY if this does more damage than b+hp -> db+hp/b+hp again/b+hk), or canceling into SAI from a wp shock (Denpa) that got air-parried or even cross-up air-parried. I’ve never seen SAI get air-parried if a poke or Denpa preceded it. This idea is WACKY, so please disregard it (and any other wacky ideas I have, unless you’re feeling desperate and are going for the confusion factor) if it seems too impractical and useless :smiley:

Finally, I’d appreciate it if anyone can confirm whether the timing/spacing seems different enough between the wp and mp Hook punches to warrant the use of the mp Hook on opponents who blocked a close drill kick, if the opponent tends to parry the wp Hook. I seldom use the mp Hook, period (it’s better for SAIII, anyway), but this isn’t that important and I’m getting ahead of myself here.

SAIII users, please share your ideas too!

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Well from what I see in japan, no one just busts out some ramdom ass move. There is always a combo-in for many reasons. One being that it builds up your gauge and two that it is in all ways safer and more practical than throwing out move. Think of priority, comboing (BnB), and practicality.

If that is the green ball special you are talking about, SAI is not the way to go. With SAIII you can use it AFTER Oro activates and nullify his SA + damage/stun even after a buffed orb ball thingy. Yes this is tested with MOD who also games in Japan

I personally dont care if an SA gets its full damage or not, I just aim for damaging the opponent. You can always build up your gauge in many ways and by your opponent thinking that you are pissed off or discouraged because your SA only hit 3 times swings back in your grove of play.
For example, when I use SAI against yun when he is in his SAIII (like CVS2 A-Grove activation thingy) I just like busting out SAI even though it only hits once and we both get reseted. Why? Cause he is now outside of cr.mk range and sets me up for an easy parry and his time just went down.
Use everything to your advantage and nothing will mentally fuck up your game ROCK.

From what I know, it does have different spacing. But I could be wrong. But I use mp.hooks for the grab/parry setup at the end of it. It works a lot with shotos cause you can just expect a shoryuken, or option parry with a grab if they so happen to try to grab you. Works about 50% of the time, it just depends on your roll.
I hope this helped you ROCK. Make sure you ask questions if my wording is fucked up. My English is getting more fucked up day by day.

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SAIII has great stun damaged, even if used in a extensive combo.

Using it to give pressure is great as well…but i’m more of a fan of his SAII…but only for a particular characters. SAIII is kickass against everyone and I like that.

I forget what his clothesline move is called so i’ll call it clothesline.

Catch an opponent in the corner…Use his HP version of the Clothesline, after third hit use his HP electrocution, after second hit of that, use the SAIII…I think that particular 8 hit combo, it should procure half stun bar.

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Its better to do the HP.clothsline >> b.mk xx MP.clothsline xx SAIII
The reason why i say that is because it hits more times than the hp.denpa meaning it gives you more SA guage build and you can always EX after b.mk if you decide to at the last minute.

EDIT: I am a retard, my combo and Batou’s combo has the same hits… hence my, “it gives you more SA gauge build” statement means shit. I appologize for my jackassness in advance.

With SAI (vs hugo, alex, and urien) you can actually:
HP.clothsline >> LP.clothsline >> db.hp*n xx SAI and get good damage.
(where *n = amount of times executed)

so that might give you some help ROCK.

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Thanks for the info, guys. I don’t have too much to add since it’s been a few days since I’ve played.

I was thinking that SAIII might actually be worth using against the green ball super (yeah: Yagyou Dama/sp?). I use SAI as a shield against Oro but since he has 3 stocks, that seems like something to do only if he jumps in after activating super and has virtually no meter at that point (even for ex) and I fear a cross-up combo. I hardly ever get to play Oro, though.

I’m still working on the multiple db+hps (I only did it multiple times ONCE, and that was on a Hugo player and it seemed to flow naturally). I’m getting more consistent with corner grab -> db+hp, b+mp on Makoto, and even Q, though I feel it’s harder on him (the timing is the same, I think, yet I guess his falling animation distracts me). I saw someone do wp Denpa, db+hp on Q, and that’s easy, but the special might cause a lot of damage scaling. When I corner-grab Q and I have SAI, I usually just go for st.mp, super, yet b+mp seems to work too lol (only on him, I think).

I wanted to add a note to the Urien match-up that it’s so much easier to grab Urien when he’s cornered and I have previously baited him to throw me or tech after he recovers from a knock-down (when I take a step back out of his range): if he blocks, I just throw him anyway and try to pressure w/ drill kicks sometimes unless I’m too predictable about it (range and timing for it) and the player starts to parry and punish. I’m thinking I could try baiting worthless parry attempts by making them parry and go for his 2-hit cr.hp after I already landed, so I could block it and punish, but this baiting attempt is pretty risky (esp. when he has meter to push me into the corner or super for good damage). I’m also improving my reaction time so I can parry his t+hp overhead and his cr.hp and punish for good damage so those moves are starting to seem too risky for him to try (the overhead mostly reserved for use right after cornering me and throwing out Aegis).

I also wanted to mention that I am not completely afraid of Chun anymore: I tick at her a lot and try to avoid attacks w/ a lot of lag. I’m getting more patient and turtling seems rather inevitable against her (at least when’s got SA stocked). It seems that she can SA-reversal AFTER getting hit by Necro’s cr. mk O_O so much for using that attack anymore when she’s got super. I think we’ve also talked about how it’s not worth it to try to Snake-Fang her whiffed pokes like b+hp (at least, when she has meter or nearly-full meter for SA), but I sometimes throw it out far away to remind her of my options, or, more like, distract her. The timing is tough but I fear getting cornered by a Chun w/ SA meter and her kara-throw, and I love to put HER in the corner, so I occasionally try the Snake Fang for that. She seems kinda helpless when cornered and I get a lot of uoh and drill kicks on her. She hardly ever throws me to get out of the corner. I wish she didn’t have such a low crouch to avoid some pokes cos I’m trying to incorporate the b+wk, st.mp chain XX SA into my gameplay more, and when I corner someone, I sometimes try to connect the chain from the uoh. Timing/spacing seems kinda tough for the uoh into b+mk, X mp Tornado Hook, though.

I guess outranging me w/ a mp Hook when my own poke whiffs is something that just works on me, cos in this case, I’m not sure if I saw Sugi or anyone else use it that way in Japan.

I’d like to try run-away wk drill kicks if possible, like Pino…it’s a shame that it wouldn’t work against Genei-Jin. Sometimes I was able to drill kick away from Oro after he released an ex fireball and SAII.

I’ve also generally been successful more at timing hp Denpas so a person who air-parries eventually crosses over me and by then the multi-parry seems impossible (I’d swear that hitting someone w/ a Denpa builds a ton of meter, but Necro seems to build meter quickly anyway).

Does anyone have more suggestions for connecting the Snake Fang, and esp. by itself? The JP players make it look easy. The inability to tech-roll after it is really cool as well (I sometimes go for the free taunt if I think I can land another hit right after the taunt, such as by baiting reversal attacks like DPs).

One final thing for now is that I’m more wary of getting hit by jump-in combos by someone like Dudley when I go for laggy moves or try to crouch-poke too much and they’re trying to close in on me–so Necro no longer has his “sweetspot”, as Blaq mentioned.

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Look at my little Necro children…all grown up.

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Idk if anyone’s around since reading the SBO results but I wanted to make a quick comment that I’m gonna try the same trick for Urien, on Yun and others: corner them and get a knock-down, then fake the walk-up for a throw, bait the tech, then b+hp, db+hp, SAI, and when that doesn’t work, continue the mind games w/ another walk-in throw, but all the while being wary of counters/reversals (that I’d be baiting if I’m patient and they’re intimidated at this point). Cornering players doesn’t seem too hard for me.

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… dont get all high and mighty cause you started a thread dude

EDIT: I am not starting a flame war by the way. No hate here to ya Blaq, just a comment. No fight, no flames, not even a little fire cracker…

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Lol I shoulda expected you’d say something like that. Next time I’m over in Japan I’ll show you real Necro skillzizzizles

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And necro riveralry arises… (ya i cant spell that)

but next time i go back to the US same back at ya, if you live in NorCal that is. Necro needs a little more spice in his threads anyway.

Damn where is coreo in all this necro heat?

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'DAMN: IParryU, it’s too bad you’re not gonna visit so. Cal! lol. I’d love to see more matches in person (more of good Necros in general).

My little progress report is that a friend of mine whom I still consider better than me, invited me over to his apt. that he shares w/ his g/f, so we could play on console/free. I think I used the joystick before, that he has, and he settled for a d-pad, but we still had some good matches. I am VERY particular about controls for this game as I have trouble adapting to weird sticks and sticks made (or custom-made) for console, but I was starting to get used to it.

I’m just continuing w/ mix-ups and getting better at zoning, and once again I was picking Ken to get a better feel of the game in general (but mostly to know my opponents’ weaknesses and length of recovery lapses, etc.).

I was doing better against Mike Z and even caught him while he was trying to jump out of the corner so I could do 1 of the Pino specials that does around 50% life. The mix-up on cornered opponents of SAI ender combos off of a throw or baited tech throw is just too damn scary O_O I think I’m also connecting SAIII more often, but it’s rarely in the corner, but my tech throw bait in the corner works nearly as well for SAIII combos that are about 3/4 full stun :smiley: lol.

Tomorrow (or should I say, “later today”, I’ll get to play JR Rodriguez again and hopefully I’ll be his best opponent…unless he’s taking it easy on me lol). “You got lucky” instead of “you beat me…or DID you?” might not mean anything different though.

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Great post, although you play necro kinda differently than i do youve given me a bit to think about.
I thought of a few things while reading your post. First of all LEARN SAIII lol, you should really know how to use I and III because as you know necro uses both depending on the matchup. I think oro is the only case where you counterpick supers (if he uses III you use I, if he uses II you use III) dont know if anyone mentioned that previously if so, sorry. This is because you can SAIII him from a distance during the startup of his SAII, and you might be able to escape corner tengu pressure with a parry/reaction SAI.
Note: Keep in mind you can SAIII oro TWICE in a row midscreen for decent damage and loads of stun (i only do this after target combo -> super).

You mentioned that you find ken difficult, personally its my favourite matchup. His hitbox is decent, lots of post SAIII mixup opportunity and its pretty easy to bait shorus.
What i tend to do is build a bit of meter, out poke then pressure him into the corner for an electric snake combo. If youve got him in the corner and you land a back mk/mp into medium tornado hook SAIII it should pretty much be over. Hes either stunned or you should have a strong enough mixup to finish him off.

Also if your getting too comfortable in your play style i would suggest adding SGGKs and red parrys into your game.
The only decent SGGKs i found are off back mp/mk as followup opportunity is available.
Saying that, the one i try most often is back lk…its pretty quick but you should be able to add a mp for target combo.

Anyways i gotta go, hope this helped, if not, i hope it didnt make you worse :razz:

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what the fuck is a SGGK?

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There’s a good explanation on the general strategy forum. It’s pretty much when you input a parry, then input a kara throw during the time of the parry freeze. If you parry, the kara throw will only register as a normal (back mp or mk in this case) and you can cancel that into whatever you want. If you don’t parry, you just kara throw. With SGGK the kara throw isn’t necessarily for range, it’s just a way of inputing a normal and throw while letting the situation determine what you actually do.

18

you could have at least boke down the acronym with all that info you just gave me. you saved me time searching for how to do it atleast. tnx

19

I would if I could. I have no idea what SGGK stands for.

20

I found it.

ya, i do this actually, but not kara-throwing. that would just be option parrying though… i gotta try this wid kara throw.

just for reference:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=122886&highlight=sggk

good lookin on that 1hitparry!