^^^ id imagine the fireball still tags him, if not you can still react to it with whatever, i just got the basics of the setup down, its most reliable off a back throw, following second by fireball store knockdown, the sweep into ex fireball was abit harder but still very practical in application. I thought id throw the idea into the fray as quickly as possible so everyone can pitch in with other ideas.
Once they notice the setup, youre pretty much safe to try something else, Ultra and super punish is still risky you could always choose not to throw the fireball.
Edit: Yeah the fireball hits the jump, you can also punish all CW’s with far.hk. Baskdash makes him safe, but hk divekick after store would catch it. So does fireball FADC shenanigans, like sweep.
lol cheers, ill start trying to apply it in matchs and see how it fares, it at the very least means you can start applying safe pressure on his wakeup from most of juris regular knockdowns, you get the same distance as backthrow from knocking them down with fireball store, its just a matter of guessing if they tech or if they dont. The payout obviously being if you get them to whiff chicken wing or to do a burn kick. Even meter if they waste a meter doing so.
Id imagine it provokes them to do chicken wing anyway, they think “oh hes throwing a fireball ill just ex chicken wing and tag him”, its once youve taught them to respect that tactic that you can now start mixing things up abit, or so it seems in the world of theory fighter. So like i said i wanna see if i can start doing it in matchs properly, just need to wait for my mate to come online and surprize him lol.
Edit: Under some conditions i could get U2 to punish lk chicken wing whiff, you have to kind of space it out in your head and react to it. Other than that i recon these are the best punishs for a whiffed CW:
LK Wing: U2, cr.mk xx hk/expinwheel
Mk Wing: Hk pinwheel, cr.mk xx hk/expinwheel
HK Wing: Hk Pinwheel / Far st.HK
EX Wing: Far st.HK
If you have super, use it, thats probably the best thing you can use, it hits all of them. Whiffs a few hits on the ex wing though, still worth it if you just want to twitch react to the situation. Speaking of which Hk pinwheel is probably still the better option all around, you lose abit of its damage on Ex wing and it might whiff so if you can always react to Ex Wing with far st.hk.
Nice find. I remember testing this kind of setup a while ago. If I recall correctly we’re at around -4 when we perform it with no delay, the EX version of this setup give us more frames.
The best bet is probably a Focus Attack if the Fuhajin is blocked.
After EX Fuhajin > dash you can get a good mix-up, if you time the EX Fuhajin to hit only once if not blocked (deepest meaty possible I believe) you can cr.mk after the dash and it will blockstring (around +6f advantage after the dash).
I’ll test if with the EX setup the dash goes under CW too since the timing is different.
Edit: doesn’t dodge CW with the optimal frame advantage timing, you need to delay it very slightly (~like a backthrow safejump), on hit it causes the bounce effect between the 2 Fuhajins, allowing a hitconfirm juggle with EX Senpusha.
yeah its about -3 frames from when i tested it, but he cant punish it with anything, the range is beyond him. Burn kick cant tag it and you can block a cr.mp which just about makes it.
I take it by ex setup you mean sweep and then doing ex lk fireball? or some other knockdown?
After a backthrow > EX Fuhajin low yeah. A Sweep too probably but the spacing depends on where you did your sweep. I tried other tech knockdowns but couldn’t get the 1hit EX Fuhajin meaty, iirc the bounce meaty was possible, I’ll test again if it’s possible and check if it can dodge CW and Flame Kick. (Edited my post)
Considering you would have to activate U1 before doing anything it wouldnt really do anything, i dont think its a good idea to have U1 stocked in this matchup overall anyway, the threat of U2 on reaction to chicken wings is something i need to have as an option, albeit not a particularly great one.
i like it … the only catch is getting those knockdowns … not neccessarily by throw (its kinda hard to get a throw on fei)… my vid on meaty setups would help in this …
now as for him NOT teching …
heres a nice lil follow up …
i noticed that jumping forward HP does wonders in this match up … either makes his DP whiff or stuffs him with its ambiguity … i dunno about trades or its safety(need to go to the lab on that one … )
but if its really that good … heres what u can do if he doesnt tech …
firebal n dash like always … then jump forward HP … (timing here might be critical … either an early or a late … again needs to be tested and again … its knockdown specific as wakeups can vary depending on the knockdown… (im gonna test this out when i have the time n see what i can do… to garantee its consistancy)
one things for sure though … if you score a knockdown on him … you can really turn the tables around … especially with EX meter … but once u get that health advantage … i dont recommend rushing him down … his pokes and damage output is just so much better … i recommend going lame … as lame as a bad joke thats been told 100 times … just make him come to u n make mistakes … TURTLE POWER!
one more thing i found that drives feis mad …
if you get pushed into the corner … and by some miracle get to knock them down … GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE …
best way is by jumping forward into HK dive … as soon as u knock down … dont hesitate or the wakeup uppercut will get u …
i read somewhere someone recommended cr.mK on rekkas … let me add that its only good vs the 2nd rekka … and not after the 1st … i dont recommend pressing buttons after the 1st rekka cuz almost anything you do could get stuffed by a cancled 2nd rekka …apart from EX senpusha … but that cn be sooo baited so be careful…
Its not hard getting a knockdown off a fireball kick, just need to guess on the release, i reccomend that knockdown along with back throw, both of them are the most reliable. Other knockdowns you need time to space and store the fireball so you basically need to do ex fireball as mandatory, and even then its hard to get the timing on the release to dash. While off a backthrow and fireball store knockdown its not hard to time or space it because its usually all done for you.
After a throw forward: dash x3 > EX Fuhajin low > dash. Dodges CW and Flame Kick.
After HK Senpusha + tech’ed kd: dash > EX Fuhajin low > dash. Dodges CW but not Flame Kick.
After MK Senpusha + tech’ed kd: dash > EX Fuhajin low > dash. Dodges CW and Flame Kick. No juggle, and frame advantage is negative. You still have enough to FA or IA Divekick for example to punish pokes.
After MK Store + tech’ed kd: Release > dash. Flame Kick loses to Fireball if well timed. You can add a bit of delay after Release (lp works) then dash to be able to dodge CW, but you lose your mix-up.
After MK Store + tech’ed kd: Release > j.HK. Dodges CW, Flame Kick loses to the Fireball, but he can AA punish after blocking.
Forward throw setup is cool, but if flame kick wins in any setup its not worth doing, so i dont particularly like the senpusha setups for that reason. Why mk store and not lk store though? Dunno what the jab is for either when i tested the fireball store into release and then dash i was dodging the CW and hitting the burn kick, maybe just stick to lk store? Keep in mind techable knockdowns arent frame perfect, they tech at different times of the fall so that might screw with results.
I usually go for the MK FB meaty when possible over the LK FB meaty, it travels slower, which means you release sooner and have more frame advantage. It also has 2 more frame advantage on bock (+6, LK is +4).
Here is a better version:
Store MK + tech’ed kd > Release (will hit meaty) > Jump > j.HP(if block) j.HK(if hit):
-The jump go over Reversal CW.
-The meaty MK Fireball beats Flame Kick and backdash.
-If the Fireball is blocked, (you already jumped at this point) do early j.HP, it will beat Flame Kick or make it whiff.
-If the Fireball hit, do j.HK, it will combo.
only the ex version gives you the extra frame advantage not the normal release, all normal releases are the same frame data. What your saying now though is a completely different setup, mk fireballs beat out chicken wings, so youre not baiting them anymore, youre only trying to get out the ex version and if you jump and he does that he escapes and you lose your setup, which is what i was trying to work around.
Edit:
Also your forward throw setup gets tagged by hk and mk chicken wings with ex low fireball, ex mid fireball doesnt fit fuzzy so thats not exactly a great option albeit it stops him from standing but he can still throw out low normals which would tag the followup dash.
Your mk and hk senpusha setups get blown up by different tech timings, depending on how i teched with fei long id sometimes get the full dmg on lk CW and get crossup versions for the other 3.
Im telling you man, backthrow, regular lk store and sweep and 3 solid ways of doing it. Only do the other stuff if you get the untechable knockdown.
Yeah, I only tested the EX version>.< These setups aren’t good anyway, they’re fake pressure since they don’t hit deep enough to have frame advantage.
Tried another setup, this one seems to work for Fei, the result seems similar to the one recorded:
Forward throw > Store LK > dash x2 > release > dash. Tested all versions, it dashes under all of them, and beat Firekicks.
SRK Wiki Juri Framedata is probably the most reliable frame data resource. And if someone finds something wrong with it, we can fix it. According to it, only the HK Fuhajin is +6 on block.
I always thought there’s just two tech getup timings: Tech, and no tech. And when I was testing fuhajin store safe jump, it seemed to be frame perfect (minus the guys who have different get up speeds, like Adon, Dhalsim and Sagat). Anyone got additional info on this?
Oh my goodness. Thanks mike. You just opened the flood gates. Today is no work. There’s going to be a lot of testing going on.
I’ve always been a fan of medium meaty but I never really looked at the uses. I’m gonna have to do so. Yum.
Oooh. Your right. Teching isn’t frame perfect. Because so Many times my store > immediate jump setup gets blown up. I flat out whiff. Also sometimes I can punish it with fk sometimes I couldn’t. I thought it was the reversal I was doing right. But it was the tech I was off by a frame or two.