If only arcades still existed…
What on earth kind of defense is this of someone making such comments from a position of authority?
Quoting Mr Wizard here
In-Game Macros are okay. Such as 3 Kicks in SF and ect…
Controller based - programmable Macros are not
No. Also we went though all this 3 years ago with the Hitbox debate. An standard analog game pad is fully capable of SOCD.
And SOCD in some games are not just legit but are an integral part of the game, for example Dance Dance Revolution requires SOCD for the game (and the dance pad) to function.
The real SOCD fix needs to happen in the games engine. The same with Plinking. Now Auto-Plinking I will not stand for.
The real question is how does a mod goes outside of the intended design of a game or not.
@ukyo_rulz brought up a interesting point with is Sports analogy
Those ultra friction-free swim wear now worn by Olympic athletes was almost banned by the IOC.
The decision not to ban them comes from every swimmer has one, it is still does not undermine the sport it self as the swim-wear doesn’t completely change the sport.
The Swimmers are still testing out there physical ability and athletic skill. Also the suits save swimmers from shaving all there body hair.
For controller mods, we have to think what is intended here with the mod. Are we just customizing a stick visual ascetics? Are we increasing accessibility like a Dual-Mod? Or is this Mod going to “Break the Game”
At some point the FGC needs to determine what mods break the game and need to get banned, like how certain cards get banned in Magic the Gathering.
The sad thing is there no real consensus what all the terms are and what even are all the game breaking Mods.
A more apt comparison would be the FIA banning traction control and other driving aids from Formula 1. By the 1993 season, cars were so advanced (with the championship winning Williams FW15C having traction control, anti-lock brakes, active suspension, power steering, fly-by-wire controls, etc.) that it was generally accepted that driver skill was becoming less and less of a factor. No longer did drivers need to learn to properly balance the throttle in corners to manage the available grip from the tires as the driver aids would automatically cut in and do that for them. Hence these were all banned from the 1994 season onwards and remain banned to this day.
At the same time, the playing field still isn’t even. Not all cars are equal and some of those in the top teams (i.e. the Red Bulls as of late) are light years beyond what the backmarkers have.
The Best Decision Making > The Best Execution
I’m trying to stay away from this topic but looking at this thread makes me realize how times have changed. My original SRK account goes back to 13 years ago and I know for sure some of the OG posters from back then would never agree with some of those replies. Maybe I’m becoming old and execution nowadays is not considered a source of skill anymore. But reading stuff like this is a bit painful.
I don’t about you but if you need those macros to have an edge in the match and you cannot perform those things without them…it sounds pretty scrubby to me. D3v is absolutely right with the F1 analogy but then again we live in a different times.
The NES Max and the NES Advantage came out in … 1987 or something like that. These aren’t new.
I’d argue this is more akin to the corked bat. This isn’t a stock aluminum bat from a store because the design is accepted and makes sense, it’s a specific hardware hack to the equipment. You have way more room to argue for Turbo based upon that logic.
shrug I’m trying to play against the person, not the CPU nor the recorded version of that person. If this is the kind of thing you want to make happen, run your own macro-friendly tournament. Be the macro version of Krazy Keits. :tup:
How do you all feel about a Hitbox layout but with additional 4 diagonal direction buttons?
Assuming you are OK with Hitbox. I know preppy has expressed distaste for it before.
then go play card games or something that is all strategy based. fighting games rely on both and that’s what makes them interesting.
i dont know how you can equate mapping a direction to turbo
one is literally just putting an existing action to a button wheras the other is having the computer perform repetitive button presses at a rate a human can’t emulate
a human can press up back, a human can’t mash a button or multiple buttons indefinitely
i think thats where the disconnect here is. its not like he has a qcf button or a combo macro, its simply a direction being mapped to a button
and i frankly do not see what the big deal is, especially considering he didnt even perform the trick that he engineered the stick for
I don’t see what the fuss is about even if he did use them. Gummo has done testing on the directional issue and I think his conclusion is correct: Full Schedule’s Stick/Hitbox at Final Round
If the results are acceptable, then adding UF and UB isn’t far removed from re-wiring your back/select button for easy plinking.
This sort of thing will become more prevalent as the FGC continues to expand. Are these sorts of conflicts going to be resolved by resorting to testing and precedent? Is community inclusivity more important that tournament standardization (even if some people with physical disabilities are unable to compete)? The decision is up to TOs; I suppose if you don’t like the ruling, you can run your own event.
While I don’t agree with Full Schedule’s mod, Select/back-linking etc, I don’t think you can objectively ban one and not the other even if it leads to control method arms race… Even if re-wiring for back/select is banned, some sticks like HRAPs have the back/select button right above the buttons anyway.
Its going to set a bad precedent in FGs when the only way to be a top player in a game is to bind certain buttons in places to make techniques easier. On top of the pad/stick you have to buy, just to stay current and competeteive your going to have to by a forward and down button to, depending on what character your playing. Hell, people might have different stick for different characters now since you can’t bind those buttons in game.
If you want button binds fine, but keep them MvC3 only, back plinking is bad enough and i am shocked no one called any player out on it.
inkblot said it best:
Less error maybe, but no error?
Not if you ban direction + attack bindings, which Keits covered and agreed with banning. (It was added later as an addendum, maybe you missed it?) And it’s not like binding MP + MK and tapping forward twice is significantly harder.
Does binding a direction to a button REALLY reduce possibility for error that much? What do people think about that?
But as other people in this thread have already covered: People discover things in games that aren’t “developer-intended” and, as long as they don’t break the game, they’re allowed. What makes directional button binds so different? They don’t break the game, and so far they haven’t been shown to make “impossible actions” (whatever that means) possible. They make certain actions a little easier, they don’t destroy the execution barrier entirely.
I think the only part i can agree on of inkblot’s post is the last sentence. One hand/thumb(controller exception) manages character movement and everything else manages attack buttons
I do think there’s room for argument that there is still execution involved to make sure you dont hit a directional button too early or that you’re not holding a direction when you do press a direction (for Viper ball, you want to avoid hitting back and forward at the same time). Whatever socd the game has may render that direction as nothing or forced to one direction and you would get misinputs, or only a misinput for one side.
I can get behind one hand/thumb for directions, that way the pad fallacy is gone. (honestly, you think that using dpad and analog is possible at the same time without being goro? )
yeah, not to be redundant, but its always amazing for things like this (full schedule and bracket situation) to happen, to shine a light of friendly reminder on various hypocricies and bullshit that goes on in this community. wiz apologized, and although this behavior isnt abnormal for him at times, to be so angry and wrong about what full schedule was saying, treating him as some nobody troll who is just trying to use your name as an excuse, rather then hear him out and be like, really, i agreed to your stick, when, i dont remember, is just sad, and the norm in our community a lot. its a whole lot of like 90s bully syndrome, im cooler then you, who the fuck are you arcade mentality, nonsense going on. so when someone performs well outside of your accepted norm for viper play, which is marlinpie, even though kbeast has been doing ridiculous shit with c viper in the mvc3 series since forever, every red flag goes off, and everyone jumps to all kinds of conclusions.
we’ve let vangief slide. weve let back/select button shit slide (even though i saw someone say they used it in the arcade too. i have no idea how sf4 arcade was setup that they were using it in arcade too). i dont know if anyone has ever really properly assessed if the hitbox give some unfair advantages in some games, more so then certain pad techniques and binds that are the norm now.
its funny seeing fchamp and neos video on the situation. i agree that a lot of people jumped down their throat for the bracket situation, when that isnt new behavior in this community at all, nor are they somehow the worst offenders, but since they were both on the fuck full schedule train, they kinda actually brought more light to the bracket thing as a result of that, and they have no self awareness, so they are just blaming everyone else for picking on them. which some people were, but this just happened to come with the package of you blowing up full schedule on twitter rather then asking him, and then checking with a TO. they acuse ultradavid of jumping to conclusions about the bracket situation, but automaticaly jumped to conclusions on full schedule without even knowing what those buttons do, or if he used them.
i commend full schedule for being a pretty standup dude this whole time. he didnt spaz on anyone on twitter, while people were basically calling him a cheater, and yelling at him for money matches for a 1000 dollars, he didnt spaz on anyone during his stream. hes just like, i dont know about all this drama dude, its just a couple directional buttons i didnt use, but i thought they were fine to use (which they were) for viper ball mixups, which he didnt use because he wasnt confident in executing them in match, missing it, and dying for it.
on a lighter note, and this could be easily argued against, but i mean are we talking fairness in umvc3. lol. a game where xf3 vergil can destroy 3 entire full health characters in like ten seconds. obviously the potential of viper ball mixups is pretty retarded and in my ideal world, would only be granted to those who have mastered the execution, not have a couple buttons to help them out, but when i see the tremendous amount of unfair shit in umvc3 in general, i could almost give two fucks about viper ball, as i see xf3 anchors just fucking maul teams in seconds. i mean, even dante in xf3 is gaining more reputation of being ridiculous (acid rain, mash back and forth incoming mixups that like almost always hit the opponent for easy confirm to death). first kbeast, then i believe bee, now cloud. just sayin. i mean the amount of bullshit in umvc3 already is ridiculous, and not that adding in viper ball mixups backed by great assist wouldnt be ridiculous too, im just saying the game is already pretty out there when it comes to faireness just within itself, not any outside hardware influences. lol
Fchamp, Neo talk Final Round brackets, Full Schedule, UltraDavid part 1
if inkblot position on hitboxes is 1 hand controls inputs, 1 hand controls buttons where does a pad fit in? also, the “intended method” of play I’m sure doesn’t consist of plinking joystick inputs which is impossible to do on a joystick which is the “intended device” for playing…
technically each hand has access to buttons and either joystick of the two on a pad. As with the cloud805\vangief examples where they’re using 2 joysticks to manipulate the game. Is 2 joysticks really considered “intended method” of play? and if it is, that means all other devices get access to 2 joysticks.
seriously, these rules makes no sense to me. The rules ban certain things from certain devices yet, they allow those banned things on OTHER devices?
Agreed. I don’t mind if changes are made for ‘top players’ when it makes sense and makes things fair, but to see asshats get their way, regardless, is sad.
A lot of top players (usually not TOP, but just under) and people like wiz will just shit on you if you’re not known regardless of any other variable. Just how it goes. It’s why fgc is a small cliquefest compared to communities even with shitty games.
the best part about fchamp’s “defense” is that he didnt actually defend himself, he just called ultra david a faggot for blowing them up and how he would get in his face the next time he saw him
and again, people wonder why the fgc is the red headed stepchild of the esports world. when our top players act like that and stream monsters think that type of behavior is awesome instead of condemning it, what do you expect