Full schedule's recap on FR17, his joystick and what it does, top player treatment, wizard debacle

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
81

oh wow, he has 2 inputs at the same time? I thought that was removed for umvc3 but apparently not? so pads are now banned according to wiz om because its capable of impossible inputs?

see the part of being logical is that if you understand possibilities, you don’t have to make assumptions or inferences. Because a pad has 2 joysticks for input devices, people will naturally take advantage of it. Without even seeing any proof, I knew it would be possible. I don’t know why people argue in the face of raw facts, its stupid and no person doing that looks good.

great post pat, that is incredibly insightful.

82

upon further inspection what I think is going on for umvc3 is that he’s plinking directional inputs by using 2 joysticks. I told johngrimm that using 2 joysticks independently would allow faster than normal joystick inputs and cloud has apparently thought the same thing. When you plink in 2f in umvc3, they line up on the exact same frame and since SOCD is removed, this is probably the likely answer. Using 2 joysticks is causing an unfair advantage and by the definition, shouldn’t it banned from tourney play according to some of these tournament rules?

again, someone please tell me how 2 joysticks on 1 device counts as fair?

if pad players can plink directional inputs because of 2 joysticks and have 2 more buttons than all other devices, should joysticks\hitboxes be allowed to mod to the point where they’re on equal footing as a pad? Its technically legal to have 2 joysticks and 10 buttons because that is what a pad plays with.

that type of input abuse isn’t even on par with what FS is doing, as he only had 2 more buttons. Pad players have an entire extra joystick they can use but its legal? where the fuck is common sense at?

83

I don’t like Keits’ ruling regarding direction + attack hardware binds.
df+2 and db+2 would give a player perfect EWGFs in Tekken every time. That’s complete shit IMO

84

I think you misread him. He does think direction + attack should be banned, so no perfect EWGFs.

85

It’s unclear why you state that having 2 joysticks is unfair. The standards I for one have discussed (no physical multi-input binding, no joystick-side macros) wouldn’t touch upon your concern. Comparing physical input binding to extra options for input is comparing apples to oranges. Having extra options for input (more buttons, more sticks) seems like a dead argument lost long ago.

86

Hitbox user at SCR told me that it lets you use the same hand, on p1 side, for direction and punch for EWGFs. My personal experience on the Hitbox (first time ever) was that EWGFs and wavedash cancels into EWGFs are insanely easy compared to stick. I don’t think one special move is a reason to disagree with Kiets decision…

87

I believe the argument is parity between how input devices are governed.

  • It doesn’t make a lot of sense to ban the use of multiple directional input devices on a single controller (Shinblanka’s ruling) when a stock pad already has a d-pad and analog stick.
  • It doesn’t make a lot of sense to classify a diagonal input as multiple inputs on an arcade stick but a single input on an analog stick (or as a special case where it’s an allowable instance of multiple inputs on an analog stick but not on a joystick, for whatever reason).

The argument in a nutshell seems to be that the Full Schedule stick just incorporates functions that are already legal on other devices, and that if you ban it, then you have to start banning some other devices that are already legal in order to stay consistent.

88

This is mostly what I wrote before on this topic. Seems like a better place to discuss this and see opinions from people that disagree.

The big issue is people want to rule that you can only use what has been used historically. People don’t want to do the hard job of defining rules on input devices. Up until now no one had to. The big thing I see in this thread so far is people coming up with elaborate rules the pretty much just mean “Like it used to be, and damn consistency”.

FS Stick is literally a better joystick. The FGC has never had to deal with this before.
Pad’s were accepted because 'lol if you don’t want to step it up to stick i’ll allow it, you scrub’
Keyboard, same thing.
Hitbox actually does improve things but you do give up some thing, which is one motion multi inputs. QCB’s are effectively one input from the human’s point of view. You gain a lot, but you still lose something.

The history of new input devices has been FGC heads laughing at those that choose them, then grudgingly accepting the devices when an abusive device specific technique is used. Vangief walking 720’s were not welcome, nor are keyboard/hitbox input advantages. The legitimacy is just grandfathered in at this point, and even hitbox doesn’t have full status.

Full Schedule had the gall to actually improve our Holy Grail the joystick.

Your point on the games not being designed for them is legitimate. I want to go back to my printer-copier-faxmachine analogy and say the question should not be what physical features does this tool have but rather what powers does it give your player? Keits’s article argues the individual physical attributes of the controller resembles already accepted input devices which currently aren’t banned for providing those attributes individually. He assumes you accept input devices containing the constituent parts thus you must accept the composite. This isn’t necessarily true. The whole may be more than the individual sums. Carbon atoms arranged one way makes graphite whereas another gives you diamond.

Let me introduce the situation I think is most similar. ST/HDR Akuma. Most of akuma’s tools individually don’t look too dissimilar to other characters. Please ignore obvious exceptions like inescapable Demons, and permanent blockstun. With the most basic use of his tools together you end up with a broken character worthy of a ban. The other characters in ST just aren’t designed to handle him. I think a similar situation is here. We have this new tool, which some think makes players broken in certain games.

Now, it might be true in certain games the FS stick is broken. They aren’t designed with that stick in mind. However, UMVC3 could be a game where the FS stick isn’t worthy of a ban. We don’t really know. We know it offers some advantages and with few, if any, disadvantages. Is it ban worthy in UMVC3? The fact is no one really knows.

If the stick is good a commercial version will show up, I can promise you that. Until then the mod community will tide us over as they always do.

I say let it rock. Until no one can compete with FS stick Viper, let it rock.

89

I also want to add that “developer intention” is an extremely hollow basis for this argument. That doesn’t factor into strategy or tactics at all (glitches and infinite combos, for example), so why is it suddenly a justification for input devices? Adhering to the limitations imposed by strict arcade layouts makes little sense in an era when the arcade is no longer relevant, and doubly so for the game in question, which has no arcade version in the first place.

I think there are merits to various arguments about how a controller arms race could be detrimental for competition in one way or another, but this isn’t one of them.

90

A: Sure, and nobody that I’m aware of specifically backing Shinblanka’s decision there. It’s his to defend. I’d probably suggest it’s in the “stop being dumbasses and just play the game” category of rulings but hey I’m not him.

B: To clarify: the UF button is replicated on other devices? My understanding is that the argument being made here is that you can press U and F via two different controller inputs, which doesn’t align with the “single button producing two effects” concern I have. As I can firmly and loudly attest to, the “DB” option on a joystick is imprecise. If my joystick really did have a perfect ability to produce DB, I would have walked out of the last tourney a happier man. But DB is an art upon a stick, and thus I’d say all comparisons of the two technologies are a needless and unwarranted stretch. They achieve the same results in different fashions, and have grievous corresponding and unique faults that you get to live with as a result of your choice. If you want to compare buttons to sticks, make your buttons fuzzy and quietly degrading in alignment and then maybe you have room for complaining.

91

Pretty sure the argument being made is that an analog stick does indeed record and send ‘up-left’ as one distinct input and not two combined ones. However the game interprets that is a different situation. But having an up-left button is just a synthesis of two control schemes that are already legal (hitbox and analog stick)

92

Dude calm down. His seismos are hella diff argue that. i am talking facts. he did 5-7 straight seismos with little movement against champ at the end of the first match with him in winners… never did we see him do that after the buttons come off. The button helps with that right… Argue that point ok.

Second, I WATCHED THE VID. that is why I am confused. His stick is just like I quoted 12 buttons with start and select, meaning 10 face attack buttons and 2 side buttons…

He says he added them to make his execution higher. He also says he did not use it for anything at all that weekend because he is not trained on his stick.

These are words from his vid that come from various times. I WATCHED all the way through and still wonder how you and mike signed off on that kind of ridic shit. Still confused even now.

Never did anyone important say he is not hella skilled, so do not get it twisted at all kid. The binds are hella OD’ed even for his intended use so argue that point kid.

and, If you want to talk about logical, we can go back to the fact that this kid built his own stick and claims after a year to not know how to use it… Is that logical… Or we can talk about how he claims to not use the binds for something that it works so logically for… Is that logical… I am not attacking his character, but I do feel the need to point out the lack of logic applied by the people saying it is crazy to think he uses it for anything other than viperball when we have video prof that seems to suggest different. Especially when we have the man himself saying he is looking for a competitive edge by adding those buttons, because he believes they will up his execution.

But on the real, I am not talking about any of that I am talking about the clear OD’edness of the bind, and how such intelligent people such as you and mike see nothing wrong with this, but after seeing more of your posts, it seems like you are just playing devils advocate and pushing the mods and the ability to gain an edge simply because you do not like the whole pad/hitbox thing now… Or that is how it seems, because you know the bind is ODed but you seem to act like it is not… Or maybe just not any more ODed than existing ridic shit.

93

This thread is absolutely crawling with neo-luddite scrubs. The cognitive dissonance is over 9000.

Spoiler

http://memecreator.eu/media/created/dqekv5.jpg

94

So why aren’t turbo or macros cool? Everybody has a line somewhere, and shouting that those who have a different line in the sand than yours are neo-luddite scrubs really does jack shit to advance or clarify the discussion.

As re: not using the stick in the year since… I’ve got sticks from three years ago that I’ve only used a couple times. Just because you have something doesn’t make it a life priority.

95

so your whole argument rests on the fact that he did great in a set he won vs poorly in a set he lost vs a former evo champ

i dont know how you can call us stupid when you’re the one ignoring all evidence to the contrary

in your mind when he went “OD” this “kid” was obviously up to something fishy because theres no way he could do siesmos like that without cheating (when he clearly shows that he can do it np and doesnt have any practice using it in the manner you’re describing)

and then you have the audacity to call everyone stupid because you think the stick he engineered to do one thing, can also allow him to do something else (that he clearly has no trouble with already and doesnt need a trick for) and because if he hasn’t learned to do the thing YOU are accusing him of, makes him retarded and the whole thing suspect

is this about right? did i sum up your argument? because it’s pretty fucking bad and you should feel bad

96

Viper Ball is 2149, and you can’t hit up.
TK Seismo is 6239, and hitting intermediate directions within the motion doesn’t fuck it up.
Seismo FADC does not require an upforward/upback direction in the first place.

It’s pretty obvious that the directional buttons really only help with the first of those three techniques if you stop and think for 5 seconds about how you’re supposed to perform each of them.

97

I hear they’re allowed in on-line ranked ;).

You can draw a specific line at deliberate delayed signal edges. Most of the stuff that uses those is considered full-on cheating by consensus and people self-enforce.

98

If we had started out with these devices they would be the norm. You can bet that if the early machines had pad controllers attached and someone invented sticks today the same people would be calling for a ban on them also.

This is similar to the videogame version of aluminum bats not being allowed in pro baseball or Spaghetti stringing being banned in tennis. It’s resistance to the use of better tools developed after the game became established, the difference being that in baseball or tennis they actually achieve a level playing field by having everyone use basically the same equipment. In the FGC we have the worst of both worlds, where we have the same resistance to innovation in equipment while still retaining an unfair playing field when it comes to input devices.

My personal opinion is that my opponent can turbo or macro all he wants. Perfect links all the time? A-OK. An autopilot switch that lets you do perfect Morridoom patterns? Go for it! Inescapable T.Hawk setups with the press of a button? No complaints here! The only reason I myself don’t use those tools myself is that they’re not allowed by TOs (also in the case of some tools I am too lazy to make them). Why would I want to live in a world of input variance when I can, ya know, not live in that world.

I don’t have a problem calling people neo-luddites when the name is apt. I don’t have a problem calling people scrubs when it applies. Like I said before, 95% of the time I can be found on this forum arguing against the flippant use of terms such that they lose their actual meaning. This is a case where I feel they actually apply so I used them. Maybe there are “kinder” words that convey the same meaning, but I don’t know them so I didn’t use them.

99

lets take a look at “developer intention” and glitches really fast. In umvc3, the cross assault glitch is banned from tournament play because it just makes the game all kinds of wacky and fucked up. Yet TAC infinites, another glitch, are allowed. Its a case by case basis as what to allow or not allow. There is some scrutiny going on here on deciding whether or not said glitch breaks the game.

Now when you talk “developer intention” and input devies, where is that same amount of scrutiny? did a TO or someone else scrutinize a pad and say, 2 joysticks seems legit? plinking joystick inputs so they line up on the same frame, also legit?

breaking the game based on developer intention through the game itself or through devices both fall under the same category imo. They both can cause glitches that put game in a different light and if you’re going to scrutinize engine glitches, you should also scrutinize input device glitches to the same degree. Which no TO does…

100

Wait a fucking second. What is a plinked joystick input? I know about plinking buttons, but what is this new shit? I’m going to need someone to explain this to me using those wonderful little SRK arrow icons.

No, I’m absolutely fucking serious. I need to know what this means.