EVerything has its advantages and disadvantages
Its a hell of a lot easier to block on hitbox. It allows you to react slightly later than you would on stick. But fucking up an input on hitbox means some real unexpected shit can happen.
There’s a couple reasons that moves with big motions aren’t the same as moves with less motion/no motions but with a bit more startup time to compensate. The main one is that there’s a lot of opportunity to hide the inputs in something else (such as wakeups, jumps, or comboing into it). If you just added more frames to T. Hawk’s U2 for example, but simplified the motion, the functionality would remain relatively the same if you’re using it at neutral and trying to react to something, but it’d be completely different on wakeup because it’d suddenly become a LOT easier to safe jump it.
For some motions specifically, there’s the fact that it’s hard to do a consistent double motion if someone crosses you up in the middle of the motion, similar to how it’s near impossible to hold a back charge when someone crosses you up. This is an advantage that the 360 (and the 720) motion have over other motions, in that you can spin the stick in any direction and the move will still come up.
For other motions, some have natural option selects. For example, hcb+p is a command throw for Hsien-Ko in Vampire Savior, and qcb+p is her gong. But unlike UMvC3, she doesn’t have a whiff animation on her command throw in VS, so if you whiff the command throw, you’ll get a gong instead. The usefulness of this particular option select is dubious at best, but it’s a possibility that some other character could be designed with it.
Speaking of 360 motions, there’s the most likely complete impossibility of doing a standing 1080 or 1440 in the games that have those commands at neutral.
Now whether these intricacies are an essential part of balancing a game, or an interesting variable that players adapt to is up for debate.
Absolutely. I’m just using the literal definition of developer intent to pose a point. If it’s in the game, it’s in the game. If it’s not in the game, why are you cheating. That’s all. My original post is mostly hyperbole. Barring Naruto/DBZ fighters, fighters are clearly designed to work with sticks, but few specifically mention sticks in game. Just as none of them mentioning plinking or infinites.
It’s an opinion, son. Hitboxes (cheatboxes) are cheating in my opinion. Deal with it.
never mind
lol I thought he meant cheatboxes likes something with auto-plinking and macros.
I guess pads are cheating too since they have some advantages over a stick (like snake eyez gief, those 360s man).
Is this guy for real?
I’d like to see you plink consistently on pad. Or piano. Or even hit 1+4, 3p and 3k consistently. You need to add that consistency by purchasing a stick, which costs money and not everyone has access to.
It seems quite obvious to me, but perhaps I can simplify even further. Why are we even having this thread discussion to begin with? What is it about these devices that makes some want to ban them? We don’t have threads discussing the legality of keyboards, dance pads or racing wheels. What makes these extra buttons, hitboxes and the like special?
The main argument against allowing alternative input devices is that they make things easier to do. That’s really what it all boils down to. However, for that argument to make any sense at all, it implicitly assumes that making things easier to do is a bad thing. If it were a good thing or even just neutral, there would be no need to have any discussion. So let’s test that assumption by isolating it. Forget the alternative input devices for a second and concentrate on the underlying logic:
- The argument against alternative input devices makes sense if and only if making difficult things easier to do is a bad thing.
- One frame links are difficult to do. Plinking makes them easier to do.
Given the above, there are only two logical conclusions:
- If making things easier is bad, then plinking must be bad.
- If plinking is not bad, then making things easier must also not be bad.
- If making things easier is not bad, then the underlying logic for the argument against alternative input devices falls apart.
So let’s look at how it played out in real life. Did easier links through plinking ruin SF4? If it didn’t, why would easier Viper balls via binding ruin UMVC3? Why would easier EWGF ruin Tekken?
Why is this a better comparison? Let’s break this down:
- Is it the extra buttons themselves? SF4 is a six-button game. If having extra buttons is bad then having a TE must also be bad because it has eight buttons.
- Is it the accessibility of a stick with extra select buttons? If using input devices that require extra investment is bad then having a stick must also be bad, because it requires extra investment over pad.
- Is it that it makes links easier to hit? If making links easier is bad then plinking must also be bad.
LOL no. The main point of purchasing a $150 stick that is heavy and difficult to lug around is to get the advantage it provides. From the point of price, availability, accessibility and portability pads blow sticks out of the water. $150 ain’t nothing. If pad and stick were truly equal then there should be more pad players than stick players. People use sticks over pad because sticks are better than pad. We highlight pad warriors for the same reason that we highlight low tier users. They’re doing shit the hard way.
but people do plink on pad. alioune, smug, wolfkrone, snake eyez, and those are the famous guys off the top of my head without thinking about it. you should get out more
your post is waaaay too long. and i dont think you understand plinking vs extra(as in non standard) buttons, or the advantages of a pad over a stick( 720s, qcf, qcb, half circle motions and dashing are all easier on pad).
i think you just want to argue. most of the post is arguing against points that im not even making or based on your opinion that a stick is automatically superior when its a completely subjective thing
I disagree with this bit. Well, kinda, I used to find dashing easier on d-pad, but now I find it as easy or easier on stick, most other things are equal or slightly in sticks favour IMO.
However I do think Ukyo_rulz has a solid argument. We all use whatever input device WE find easiest to use, is Full Schedules stick really that bad given that fact. Personally, until I see the game broken by an input device (MVC3 left-right blocking says “hi”) then I don’t see the issue.
This issue is more Ethical rather than a Logical issue.
The consensus here is that it is cheating because it makes it easier…
Then why not make everyone play on one brand of Pad/Stick.
that would make that argument null.
Now you will says but this and but that. Yet the problem is fixed… People just want to say it is unfair like a child because they do not have it nor given the advantage they think it provides.
Stuff like dash into double qcf is way harder for most people on the P1 side of the screen than it would be on a pad. its harder for me than it would be on pad, and ive poured maybe 1000 hours into training it
Anyway that’s my point. Pad/stick is completely subjective. Like wolfkrone for example learned stick but went back to his ps2 pad anyway because its more efficient for him.
It’s personal preference and you can be a good player on either one. you cant just say stick is better at everything because it costs money or some aspects are better
i’ll add to this that i didnt say his stick was “that bad” or that anything broken was going on. my original post in this thread was that i personally would rule against it for the sake of avoiding these grey area devils advocate arguments and one off -made at home designed- stick layouts
and what the hell is john grimm even disagreeing with?
-people do plink on pad
-stick/pad is a subjective argument as well as what you/I/anyone finds easier on what device. its like disagreeing with me for thinking blue is my favorite color
-his post is waaay too long because he’s making all these extra points about shit i didnt bring up
I’m disagreeing because you didn’t understand the argument. He wasn’t saying no one plinks on pad, he said it’s harder, because it is, because the buttons aren’t in a solid layout for it. That doesn’t mean you can’t, it just means you have to work harder to do it accurately. Same thing with pianoing, the layout of a pad does not lend itself well to pianoing. Does this mean it’s impossible to piano on pad? No, it just means if you want to piano on pad you have to work harder than if you were to play on stick. Buying a stick will legitimately, IMMEDIATELY, make these techniques easier to do.
Also, if pad was truly equal to stick, why would anyone even play on stick? For the old men who grew up in arcades it makes sense because that’s what you’re used to, but anyone born in the 90’s should have no reason to buy a stick if pad was truly on par with a controller that costs in excess of $130 a pop. The real fact of the matter is that a lot of games get very many benefits from stick that spending the money on one is a worthwhile investment if you are serious about playing fighting games and that’s why people do it. There are still players who are more comfortable on pad, but that doesn’t mean they are on an even playing field executionally, it’s just what they prefer. If you want to say that pad and stick is subjective then you have no right to say anything about Hit Box because THAT is subjective as well, but you’re not going to do that because it would make your arguments about such devices irrelevant so you’ll happily continue to contradict yourself.
And if you don’t think everything he brought up was relevant then I don’t know what to tell you. Either you’re seeing what you want to see or you don’t understand basic logistical reasoning in a debate format.
You know, I was going to talk about the Full Schedule situation but no one seems to be talking about it…
Oh whatever, I’ll just post what I typed up a few minutes ago when I remembered that this thread exists.
To oversimplify things with my (very likely) outdated look on the matter: since it’s a problem that the buttons registered as two inputs, could he not just put an extra button up there, switch the left one to be just a left input, the middle one to be up, and the right button to be a right input so he can still have the option to use those for Viper Ball?
I understand the argument.
It’s purely subjective.
Do you understand that?
Some things are easier on stick. Some things are easier on pad. It depends on what each player needs to be able to do in his game of choice. This is not something you can argue with because it will vary from player to player and game to game. Pretty sure that’s the definition of subjective.
If player A plays on pad and his character has no use for plinks or pianoing he is on the same field of execution in his game as player B even tho player B uses a stick and his character relies on plinks and pianoing. Maybe this is breaking news, but some characters are actually better off on a pad. This isn’t about potential in all games for all characters. Not everyone plays all FGs like that. It’s a matter of personal experience and personal expectations.
If I play pad T.Hawk in SF4, why would i give a fuck about EWGF in Tekken or pianoing reversals in ST?
Other examples would be some top MK and Tekken players playing pad in those games exclusively, even though they are adept on stick in others.
There is no “better”. It depends on what you need to do personally
sub·jec·tive
[ səb jéktiv ]
1. not impartial: based on somebody's opinions or feelings rather than on facts or evidence
Also please stop bringing up the price like it fucking matters. The real reason it costs $100+ is because its a big ass piece of plastic with a bunch of extra wires and shit and it takes more labor/robots to make that shit. You’re acting like its a mythical sword or some shit. Also supply/demand+we keep buying those shits. It has nothing to do with “better”
Lastly, I said hitbox is good shit. My argument against it has little to do with how good or bad it is. That is, however, a wicked sweet attempt at a strawman. I have clearly stated on multiple occasions that I would rule against hitboxes to avoid shit like extra up forwards/backs/pedals and whatever else. It’s a matter of simplicity in making a theoretical rule
what in the fuck…
Don’t get what hitbox has to do with extra directional inputs other than the inputs being mapped to buttons…
Personally, I am against hitbox in competitive play because of SOCD but other than that, it does exactly the same things a fight stick can do and also has it’s pros and cons. Same with pads; they should be allowed as long as there’s only one directional input only.
because it leads to shit like i want up/forward mapped to a button because hitbox has buttons, and stock pads have two up/forwards. then you get a guy with foot pedals.
IMO it will get to the point where execution wont matter, and i think execution is part of what makes FGs special/unique.
i could have trained 100s of hours learning that one technique, but i made a controller that bypasses most of that shit. now i only need 10 hours
thats cool if you build sticks or controllers or whatever, but i value that 100 hours to get that combo/technique more
*waits for john grimm to disagree with what i value
You can plink with a dance pad. The point is that it’s easier to do on stick.
Personally, I have no beef against the concept of banning alternative input devices per se. Allow them, don’t allow them. I’m fine either way. I would prefer that they be allowed, but it’s not a serious issue for me if they aren’t. However, when I see people making arguments that are not logically consistent, I will call them out on it. That’s how I roll.
Here’s a practical example of two devices that are equivalent: custom sticks and premium mass market sticks. Both come with Sanwa parts. Both work well. Customs have the bling factor, but in practical terms they are equal. What do you see people rocking at tournaments? As input devices a custom stick is equal to a premium mass market stick. It’s also significantly more expensive, thus more people opt for the TE. If pad was really equal to stick, you’d see vastly more people on pad because a 500% price increase is significant.
I find it exceedingly unlikely that the majority of the FGC just thought “I guess I better go out and pay $150 for a device that is heavier, bulkier, and performs just the same as this other input device that I already own because it came with my console.”
Ok, my last post in this thread since it has been derailed even more than the train at the end of Back to the Future 3.
FS’s stick is not being considered cheating by a large amount of TO’s and top players.
However Hitboxes or anything that isn’t an Arcade Stick is being considered cheating by random people on forums (No insult at anyone, I’m a random too 
).
Pads are widely accepted as functional and many players prefer them for a multitude of reasons (Price, comfort, traveling) and yet there are people arguing with things like “if pad was truly equal to stick, why would anyone even play on stick?”.
Seriously? Even while typing this out I’m baffled by this logic.
It’s like saying to someone “Why ride a motorbike when you could drive a car?”.
Fact is, I’ve seen people do some amazing stuff on pad (See Cloud805) and I’ve seen some nigh-broken stuff on Hitbox (See Dash-Jump Strider). I’ve also seen people on arcade sticks do some incredible things (Evo moment #37). Does any of this mean that one is better than the other? Or does this mean that each has its own advantages?
Also - Why the hell are people arguing on the price point of pads vs sticks?
Oh I see… There is no reason behind it at all. The only reason it would’ve been bought up in the first place is as an attempt to support an already failing argument. Some people prefer pads and that’s why they use them. A majority of people use sticks because they see the high level players using them and assume it will make them better while not taking in to account that a lot of the high level players started in the arcades where they were mandatory.
At this point you can’t assume that people buy sticks because they’re automatically better. You can, however, assume that people are sheep.
Anyways, not trying to call out anyone in particular, but this thread seemed to have good discussion for the first few pages but the last couple are painful to read for the most part.
Like I said before SOCD and dual directions on pads are the bigger issues. I personally have no problem with FS stick unless it’s used for things a stick cannot do (again, SOCD).