You can do Evo moment 37 on any input device. Renic even did it with his foot once
Stick is probably the preferred input device if you have feet where your hands should be
(I know I said the last one was my last one but this is for clarification which proberly isn’t needed but it will bug me if I don’t add)
My point at mentioning the Evo Moment was not the act itself but that it represents. Something done on a stick.
If I’d had a better example off the top of my head then I would’ve used that instead but I didn’t so… yeah.
It’s a simple way to test a hypothesis. Assume that it’s true, figure out what effect it would have, and then check to see if those effects can be detected. It’s not a difficult concept to understand.
Undisputed Facts:
- Sticks cost more than pad, and are less convenient to transport than pad.
- Consoles come packaged with pad controllers.
Hypothesis:
- Pads and sticks are equal in functionality, and the only reason to pick one over the other is personal preference.
If the hypothesis were true, there would be vastly more pad players than stick players. This is because people already own pads. They come with the console, and so they are the default choice. Thus, the distribution would look like this:
Pad users:
- People who prefer pad
- People who don’t care either way
- People who don’t have $150 extra to spend
Stick users:
- People who prefer stick and have the willingness + ability to spend an extra $150
So let’s see how that plays out in real life. Are there more pad warriors than stick users? There are not. Therefore, the hypothesis cannot be true because the conclusion that it logically leads to did not come to pass in real life.
You forgot other variables beside preference. Consistency and win/loss rate , there are other variables to skewer the test if this was done in a long term test. In a short term test this might yield some results from either side and I dont think it will be conclusive.
Consistency and Win/Loss rates don’t matter because you can only learn those things after you’ve chosen one input device or the other, which renders the rest of the hypothesis inert.
There needs to be a variable to tell the success of the device that is being conducted in the test. The thing though is that as a player plays he/she will get more experience.
This is, in fact, what I was originally arguing -> that sticks provide superior consistency and win/loss rate in the general case. The hypothesis I was testing was the claim that there is no difference in consistency and win/loss rate between pad and stick. I extrapolated what the world should look like if that claim was true, and found that it looked different. Therefore the claim was wrong.
If players become “locked in” to a significant extent after choosing one input device or the other, that would mean the younger generation of competitive players who did not get started in the arcades should be almost entirely made up of pad players. Only the old timers from the arcade would be on stick. This is not the case.
Edit: Made the post less combative. More neutral.
there’s been a definite pressure exerted by the community to move to stick, though there’s less shit thrown at pad players these days. but even then if you start playing in communities of strong players you’ll be surrounded by mostly stick players and that no doubt has an impact.
which is why you can’t really draw any conclusions about superior input devices based on what everyone is using. yeah pads come with the the console and are a sort of default, but the community is still rooted in arcade culture, through the sands of time.
It is true that social impact have to do with the choice of peripheral that one will use. There are people that wanna be in the cool kids side of the cafeteria.
Back on the subject of the extra buttons, yes it makes one move more consistent just as having a bind for XF or H+S/L+M/M+H and ever other variation. People argue that it is not part of the game to have the extra buttons. The game revolved around a console that comes with a pad! So a stick “Can” make certain moves “easier” to begin with.
Anyways most people here are already set in their ways and nothing will sway them to one side or the other.
Fact is that Tourney Organization all needs to get on skype and sort shit out so that there is a General Ethics/Code/Rules. Sort of like the Constitution and then the State builds from that; can be a base for some organization.
That thought experiment is assuming that there are an equal amount of people in each category, which may not the case. The distributions for each category could easily be so that even under that spread, there would still be more people in the single category you’ve given for stick users than for pad users. There could simply be more people who prefer stick and can spend $150 than people who fit into any of the categories you’ve given for pad users.
For example, take a hypothetical sample of 100 people. Maybe there’s 25 people who prefer pad, 25 people who don’t care, 25 people who don’t have $150 but prefer stick, and 25 people who have $150 and prefer stick. Under that distribution, you’d see 75 people with pads, and 25 with sticks.
But it could be just as easily said that of that 100 people, there’s only 10 people who prefer pad, 10 people who don’t care, 10 people who don’t have $150 but prefer stick, and 70 people who have $150 and prefer stick. Then we have 30 people with pads and 70 people with sticks, all still because of personal preference.
Why has this turned from an issue of legality to pads vs sticks? I thought the point of this thread was what is tournament legal not which input method has the advantage over the other…
yeah
its all individual preference lmfao some people prefer one thing to the other
numbers dont mean shit in this case
its all what you wanna do
I like pad and will continue to use it
this line of BS right here. particularly the bolded part
whats worse is that i didnt even say we should ban everything from outside the game, i brought the shit up because i was trying to get him to see the difference between plinking and more buttons. he took that as me saying anything better=ban. then he spun that strawman into sticks are better than pad
lol. then a text wall. then a social studies project on stick vs pad
anyway. keep the shit simple then you dont have to deal with all the extra variables. no hybrids, no goofy shit.
The basic thread of logic for this specific debate as I see it is this:
Assumption:
FS’s stick gives him an advantage over traditional arcade sticks.
Note: In the context of this debate, it should not be argued about whether if it truly gives an advantage (the arguments about additional input errors), or how it gives an advantage if it does (button binding/macros). Those are separate questions for different grounds of making his stick illegal. For this argument, it should be assumed that it gives him an advantage and proceed from there.
Question:
Should the advantage itself be grounds for making that type of modification illegal?
Argument:
If a stick has an actual advantage over a pad, and we allow sticks, then why wouldn’t we allow another device that has an advantage over a stick?
Counterargument at debate:
Sticks don’t actually give an advantage over pad as choice of input device is purely preference. Therefore, since a stick does not have an advantage over a pad, the fact that FS’s stick gives him an advantage is not something the community has already determined is legal beforehand.
thats a nice tl;dr for the last 2 pages
How have we still not even dared to answer the question at all? How?
This is really getting crazy. The only legit grey area we should have here is because Yipes and Keits and the like are not ruling against the stick, so if we were confused from that point I could kinda understand. But we continue to argue things that are pure politics. Why not talk about the actual issue like mike has.
There is no slippery slope in this. Maybe if more people knew what was going in these games it would be easier to discuss but really people we post on srk so it can not be that hard to find concrete facts to support arguments.
Plinking stand for Priority Linking, and this means you are using the strength of weaker buttons to help create a “multi button press.” Meaning this is in the game for all buttons except light because of there being no weaker button to Plink it to. So all Blinking or Slinking is doing is allowing you to have access to Priority Linking Lights. Lights… That is not the same as 9 seismos or 3 lighting loops with no execution gap… Sorry that does not hold any water in a real argument. Plinking lights is game breaking??? I am sure people thought long and hard over that one also.
Plinking was put in the game to make things easier, we had no choice in if you could plink a heavy attack because there is like 5 buttons you can user for it. We did have say so if you could plink a light and we did not think it was that dig a deal… at least not like plinking a heavy is… But again nothing we can do to stop that…
This is hella different than FS “extra button” how are we even arguing it? Capcom put in 33 shortcuts for pad and stick players in all their games for ease of execution on a stupid DP. (it is even in TvC so I would assume it is also is marvel, but if it is not it goes even further for my point.)
But for some reason they did not say we put this ease of execution on all TKs, they left that part out. So we (p-cola/Full Schedule/The FGC) put that part in… and some people do not think that is ok. Does it hold more of a universal game changer than say helping to time jabs… We already know it does and that is why there is no slippery slope here.
If FS said he sucked at TKs and that is why he added the button we would not even have this argument, but he did not say that so we think there is some kind of grey area now on the stick itself and what it “can help” do.
Even if you want to air on the safe side like mike has and not say this bind/button is crazy ridic… We have got to know the next mod will be out of control so we need to stop this shit now.
plinking is a glitch and blinking is cheating
If you want to say another word on this subject I’ve got a ban coming your way. Your statements are both ignorant and horrific.
Real life has consequences. Some of them are ongoing, and NB will have to deal with this on an ongoing basis, and all aspects of that are just not anything any of us need to get into.
This is not any of our business, it is a legal matter, and we all will shut the fuck up about it.
people shouldn’t be upset with FS but actually be upset with the rules we operate by as they allow device modification to a ridiculous degree. If it wasn’t FS, it would have been someone else sooner or later as we left the door open for “cheaters” to stroll on through.
I put “cheaters” in quotes because what FS did wasn’t exactly cheating. More like bending the rules a bit much like pad players and hit box players did for their devices to argue for their legality.
if anything, I blame the TOs who allowed his stick as when he was building it, I told him it was illegal by my definition but he did kind of have a good argument. We eventually agreed upon a grey area of the rules so he should get it cleared by TOs. He got it cleared by the 2 biggest tournaments every year in CEO\EVO and I vividly remember telling him to save those conversations because of how wizard likes to act, which pretty much saved his ass at FR instead of getting dq-ed.
if TOs can’t identify simple ass button hardware binding, they probably shouldn’t be calling the shots on what devices are allowed or not allowed as its above their understanding. I made a better judgement call on FS stick than those 2 TO’s did.
now because of all these rules a hitbox\joystick tandem joystick is now allowed. Hitboxes\pads fall 2nd\3rd to the new OP hybrid device of a hitbox\joystick and its officially an arms race rather than an “e-sport”
I find this unlikely. If I’m running a F2P game with one free character “pad-man” and one DLC character “stick-man”, and everyone is playing “stick-man” as their main, that means something. Now maybe it means “stick-man” is just so much cooler and fun to use than “pad-man”, but I think it’s vastly more probable that “stick-man” is just top tier.