Huh…the game is also available on Nintendo 3DS with touch screen short cuts…just because AE is available on pc doesn’t mean the game was not designed with arcade controls in mind. Just saying…
I don’t think anyone is in the position to say what is “intended gameplay” of any game unless they were on the development team of the game itself and can produce development documents, and even then, the “intended gameplay” shouldn’t matter. The gameplay (and control scheme) that should matter is whatever the community at large determines what the gameplay should be like.
I mean, the clearest example that the developers don’t necessarily have a clear idea of what exactly they want to do with control schemes is the fact that some games still accept SOCD, which is clearly NOT conducive to a competitive tournament, but the developers left it in despite it being available to every pad player.
If what developers intended EVER mattered then we wouldn’t use bugs, glitches, infinites, and abuse top tiers, everyone would get played equally and it would be the most squeaky clean nice play ever. Fortunately, the FGC DOESN’T care what developer intention was, people are just using it in this context to have their cake and eat it too where if it’s not a stick, THAT isn’t okay because it’s not what developers intended, but excuse me while I guard break someone into AHVB kill in Marvel 2. You don’t get it both ways.
Not true. Every additional button adds to the chance of inadvertent or incorrect triggers. When was the last time you accidentally did up + down on stick? Hitbox users run that risk while stick users do not. Do you risk accidentally getting up + forward when you try to press an attack button? FS does.
In fact I imagine even turbo users run the risk of getting gatling cancels they don’t want, and even macro users run the risk or triggering their pre-programmed combo at the wrong time. I’ve never had to worry about starting a combo at the wrong time and then getting locked in to continuing the inputs even if it is dropped.
You can argue that the new risks are smaller than the old risks, and that we prefer to have greater variance over less variance. Claiming that bindings completely remove the potential for human error is simply wrong.
Well someone didn’t read my post
Lol for someone who takes time to type you might wanna read the part
Where I put in parenthesis that I wasn’t directly talking about or attacking you
I read your posts and you were talking about button binds but I didn’t see any distinguishing between games
So I made that post to get some clarification no attacks I even stated I think it varies from game to game
Yeah so next time ya wanna flag
You should consider the following
And read lmfao before you call me out on shit cause it ain’t that critical
Honestly, hitbox won’t be a real issue unless execution supercedes good reads and a character becomes too broken when you execute with them properly
I’ll concede you are correct that FS has the chance to derp and fat-finger the two direction button when he meant to hit jab, but that’s not really what we’re talking about here.
On a normal arcade stick, it is by definition not possible to consistently hit frame perfect up/forward. Your inputs will simply be dirty more frequently than ideal. FS’s stick eliminates this problem entirely by mapping two switches together. Wiring two microswitches of a joystick together to one button press should never be tournament legal.
Where do you draw that “supercede” line? Don’t think there is a clear point where execution beats good reads.
(A lot of people I’ve played think I only win cos Sak combos do too much damage or “mashing” electrics in SFxT lol).
While there may not be a clear line, there definitely is a line that exists somewhere. Chun-Li and Abel’s infinites in SFIV stand out as an example, since if those could be pulled off with 100% consistency, that would most likely break the game.
Most of the other examples I can think of involve infinites in games that clearly did not intend for infinites (or ToD combos for that matter) to be standard practice (AKA, not Marvel) because most of the time, if the game was designed without those combos in mind, it usually means the competitive atmosphere for the game is also built around not being able to end the game by touching the opponent once. It doesn’t mean a game can’t survive competitively once those things are discovered, it just needs to have enough other mechanics robust enough that allow it to survive.
Personally, for the SFIV Chun and Abel case, that just means to me the game is poorly designed in that aspect specifically and it’d be easier to ban the result (the infinite itself) since it’s so limited in scope than to ban the method.
These two posts right here describe the “politics” involved in this argument. While one side is trying to speak on facts only the other side is speaking on conjecture only. Think of it like climate science in America. We can not get anywhere if people have to accept stupid shit as facts. Trouble Brewing should never have thought about what that other fool was saying because it had nothing to do with what he was talking about. It made his point less clear when he said he agreed with the other fool on something so blatant and obvious it did not need to be stated. Kinda like the whole “Well if god is coming back and we all go to heaven in the end of times then we should welcome climate change, as it lines up with the bible story.” It adds nothing to actual problem we are trying to address.
How we are worried about less than 1/5 (maybe 1/4) of our scene having access to 2 extra buttons and a crappy extra b-pad or crappy extra stick is just baffling to me in every way… And what it has spawned because of it is just ridic. Just think of how this could change the top 25 in Marvel so quickly.
Marn, Knives, Meep, Mihe, Tayson, Bee, Bucket head… This is a quick list of spencers and zeros that drop TK inputs for various reasons and that loses them a lot of matches. All of them are contenders for top 50 in the states in the game (Maybe not Tayson but I love FL) and something like knives not dropping TKed Grapple like 40% of the time he goes for it would really up his game lots. We really have to think about this shit guys… Do not be lazy and watch the vid proff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka8i6zS8Mac Starting at 5:07
Look at FS matches, it is the difference in him winning 3-0 or 3-1 vs Justin wong. He goes for 5 seismos in a row and fucks up the fifth and gets jump H or S and gets punished hard as fuck for it (viper gets taken to half life and snapped and ammy gets killed on incoming) all because he fucked up something he claims to do so well in training room.
That kind of shit is why Knives is not in top 8 ever. He drops TK motions to often and pays for it… Seems like FS would get punished as well since he can not do 5 in a row… Unless he found some way to do like 6-8 seismos in a row with little to no execution gap… Like he did against champ in his winners match… Or he could just stays away from seismos all together when he does not have the buttons like he did in every match after…
HYPER EDIT:
I am not saying all this to attack FS, as I have stated many times before, I love me some FL and have super respect for our scene because I live down here and know how hard it is to have a scene and how hard each town tries to have one, but the number and facts do not lie and I can not come in here bias as fuck and ignore facts… 100%(3-0) vs 75% (3-1) is a huge diff, and that one mistake is the whole reason FS lost match 3. He picked the match back up with solid play but that one mistake put him so far down that he could not come back… That one mistake!!! Those are solid facts. That button would have made a 25% difference in that set alone… Number are numbers…
I don’t think there’s any argument against the fact that SSFIV 3DS is a different game; you don’t even need to charge to do special moves in that game.
Developer intentions as to what you can do is one of the basics of fighting games. They’re a subset of what is possible in the game, but if the developer puts the ability to throw in the game, you don’t get to ban people for throwing. Developer intentions don’t make up ALL of what you can do (such as roll canceling), but if it’s in the game it’s legit to do. Hence why I think we’re actually arguing for the same point here (that keyboard devices such as the hitbox are okay), in so much that I’m saying “if the devs put it in, it’s okay” and you’re saying “just because the devs didn’t intend it doesn’t make it not okay”
he does not use the extra buttons for seismos… its for viper balls.
you where referring in a scientific notion earlier… Even their Theory/Hypothesis takes more than a few test.
FS situation is one probability that can happen, it does not make it a fact.
Wait, so… you’re saying that his lack of those buttons made him 3-1 Justin Wong? So… you’re saying that he missed one seismo without the buttons, but he still won the set… without those buttons? Are you saying that he does or doesn’t need the buttons to beat top players? I’m confused now. Because, in the video I just watched, he beat Justin Wong without the buttons…
Then, I went ahead and did some side research to see what kind of fights he had against Champ without the buttons and, here’s the important part, he only once got an opportunity to use rapid seismos in his runback, and he did it. His Viper always got hit first. You can’t do any seismos when Magneto is killing you.
Sir you are only confused because you are politicking… I do not ever in my post say he needs or does not need the buttons to win, because that is not what the fuck we are talking about stupid. I say the button could have had a 25% change of outcome for this one set and that is huge because that is the only mistake he made in the whole set.
How could you read my post and still politic? Is anyone else confused about who won or if he had the buttons working? So why the fuck did you post that? He ran against chris and justin and ryan and how many rapid seismos did we see? Did he really not have any chances except the one I discussed and the one you discussed??? Why are you even posting?
The effect those types of buttons can have over a match is nothing we want IMHO. A team comprised of Viper/Zero /Spence will live and die by that kind of button. Look at the list of people I have named. They are all killers in ever right but their execution (especially Tk motions) is just not up to snuff. Those buttons will change that for them if they want and that will have another effect that I do not think we want to see.
I am talking about numbers and actual facts. I do not care if the kid never uses them. I do care that people are confused if they should be legal or not, because we allow nothing like that in any tourney. He said he is using it to make his execution better, so as a community we need to make a decision based on what the buttons can do for execution in general and not just this kids execution.
If he said he used it for all things Tk and people would not give a shit then I do not think we would be having this discussion, but, I do believe that most of the reason people are not like WTF about this bind is because he (says) he only uses it for one thing.
I do believe that things would be different if he said something like “I suck at TKing shit so I added this button to make me good at it.” But you can all correct me if I am wrong. Because that is where it is going if the bind is allowed.
Politicking. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Related: Why you mad, b?
YOU mentioned that he was fucking up the seismos because he didn’t have the buttons. YOU said “That button would have made a 25% difference in that set alone”, yet you then say “I am talking about numbers and actual facts” in a following post. Allow me to provide you with a fact: Anything can happen in Marvel. Watch that match again at the timestamp you’re specifying in your previous post. He misses the fourth seismo and Wolverine forward techs. How do you know that he was going for a fifth seismo? He could have been going for an airdash and mistimed it. He could have been going for a plink dash and mistimed it. He could have been avoiding the assist that was just called. Anything could have happened. Here’s another fact for you. We don’t know what happened with that “fifth seismo”. Watching the tape on repeat, I see that since Wolverine teched forward, if the fifth seismo had come out, he still would have been punished hard as fuck because of a 2for1. Doom got hit by the assist that was called. Viper would have been hit by that and Wolverine.
The bind is legal at UFGT8. If he uses the buttons and slides through the competition free like he did Justin, then we know it’s a problem. If he uses someone else’s stick and slides through the competition free like he did Justin, what’s the conversation really about? I mean, homeboy’s been using this stick with these buttons for a year and now it’s a problem? How many tournaments has he gone to since putting the buttons in?
I mean, I understand that niggas are averse to any sort of change, and that’s ok. Change can be good, guys. Obviously within reason, but it can be good. Until these buttons make him the 2014 ChrisG, I can’t see the problem with them. They’re not instant combos, they don’t give him some sort of incalculable advantage over better players, and they don’t instantly win the game.
What if these better players (like Chris G) start using buttons like these and further their advantage over everyone else - are you ok with that too? Then everyone else would have to play catch-up by upping their stick level by adding in custom rows of buttons and whatever else is legally allowed.
2nd stick to allow for left/right blocking of all incoming mixups in mahvel? There’s literally no reason not to add that in on some unused corner of your stick :tup:
Personally I’m hoping the rumours of HITBOX|PR Rog are true, I would love to see that guy dominate even harder than he does now.
Like I said, change within reason is fine. If ChrisG puts in the time to use FS’s stick effectively, so be it. Players will have to either become stick builders/modders (great for Tech Talk) or look for new in-game tech to beat whatever team he’s using. Anything that can create impossible scenarios is not reasonable change, however. That’s stupid. Simultaneous Opposites is not within reason. Console-only games shouldn’t be expected to adhere to some arcade standard.
But hey… I don’t even like this game, so y’all make the rules as y’all please. I’m just here to play devils advocate.
it still makes numerous characters a lot easier to play
It makes charge partitioning plink dashes with shuma easy. It makes storm, rr, strider float/jcs extremely piss easy and specifically makes strider’s half screen overhead 10x easier. It has extremely clear cut advantages imo when it comes to many things.
So at this point people are still arguing over the basic premise rather than the bigger picture (At least that’s the impression I’m getting) but very few are disscusing what the actual options are. The main reason (imo) is that evidence is not available. At this point Joe-Average cannot make an informed decsion about the situation because they don’t know any better. Everything just becomes hyperbole except for statements by a select few with knowledge + experience with this situation to make a call on it.
Shoultz has been playing with FS since he added his buttons correct?
In that case how many others can really make a judgement call on how efficently it works/doesn’t work?
Not trying to be a Shoultz fanboy (The guy is still a myth as far as I’m concerned) but he bought the topic into the light before the current “Issue”.
He is also one of the few that is giving examples of “Legal Controllers” but I’ve seen his posts ridiculed because it’s unrealistic/hyperbole? So was FS’s stick until very recently…
Basically I don’t think people know what to do or say about it at the moment as the only things they’ve heard about it are second/third/fourth-hand. (After all, MarlinPie said he was doing humanly impossible things right? Right?!)
Until there is more evidence against his stick he should be allowed to let it ride.
Note - Since there was a guy with pedals at Hypespotting (And I plan to go next year) do you think anyone would mind if I took a Bass guitar, added two xbox sticks where the volume controls usually go, added buttons on the frets and added binds for each different string? I could effectively make an 88 button stick with 4 seperate binds + the use of two sticks.
(I wish I could say I was just screwing around trying to prove a point but I actually want to do that now 
)
You know people are talking about keyboards now, but did anyone use the Dreamcasts keyboard when tournaments were using it for various games?
And speaking of a Dreamcast ran tournament game, CVS2 eventually was turned into EO where youd use the second analog stick on the original xbox or gamecube controllers for a special move to come out in one flick of the stick. Now THAT should be illegal for an example of where the line should definitely be drawn.