Full schedule's recap on FR17, his joystick and what it does, top player treatment, wizard debacle

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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this is what im basing my tekken argument off of. are you seriously telling me this is difficult, and im wrong about your device in what it does for you when it comes to tekken, or are you talking about some out of context in general shit that ive clarified more then once. if you dont think hitboxes have a big advantage over arcade sticks and pads for tekken, then you are smoking that greatest weed ever on planet earth. i dont even know if there are any further shenanigans to be had with a hitbox when it comes to tekken, and this is just a base level skill video for the hitbox with this game.

ive already stated before that the hitbox probably isnt a big deal for most other games, but i dont know, and im sure a lot of people dont. you dont believe in execution barriers though, and you think that shit is just some arbitrary hump in the road for players when it comes to video games, so it will be no shocker when your inevitable reply is, you basically dont see anything wrong with the device when it comes to tekken.

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[quote=“jimmy1200, post:221, topic:167994”]

this is what im basing my tekken argument off of. are you seriously telling me this is difficult, and im wrong about your device in what it does for you when it comes to tekken, or are you talking about some out of context in general shit that ive clarified more then once. if you dont think hitboxes have a big advantage over arcade sticks and pads for tekken, then you are smoking that greatest weed ever on planet earth. i dont even know if there are any further shenanigans to be had with a hitbox when it comes to tekken, and this is just a base level skill video for the hitbox with this game.

ive already stated before that the hitbox probably isnt a big deal for most other games, but i dont know, and im sure a lot of people dont. you dont believe in execution barriers though, and you think that shit is just some arbitrary hump in the road for players when it comes to video games, so it will be no shocker when your inevitable reply is, you basically dont see anything wrong with the device when it comes to tekken.

[/quote]

Saying you’d be doing everything perfectly in an hour is stupid ignorant bullshit and that’s what you’re wrong about. How do I know it’s bullshit? Because that very video you’re linking to took Dustin days to get some of that stuff down to a consistent level to even put it in a video, and even then he isn’t some expert in Tekken movement. You’re saying that the controller is basically doing the shit for you with minimal effort on the player’s behalf, and that’s just dumb. I defy you to pick up a Hit Box and do anything in an hour let alone be as proficient as you say you’d be.

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FWIW the EWGF issue is why Keits had inserted that odd “no direction+button binding” exception to his set of volatile rules. Not sure how relevant it is, but – fwiw.

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That’s probably the case but the hard part about EWGF (I play SFxT fwiw) is getting the diagonal on the same frame of as the button. That difficulty is substantially reduced when you have to hit two buttons.
@JohnGrimm‌ I got to spend 15 minutes on a hitbox at SCR and it took less than a minute to replicate the EWGF combos I’d spent months learning, and still have to practice regularly on stick, on hitbox. Wavedash cancelled to EWGF (6523653+punch), something I still screw up often on stick required a minute or so to remember the sequence of button inputs. I’m able to pull of that sort of thing consistently on keyboard with 0 practice. Even if the video maker took a couple days to learn that motion it’s, probably, significantly longer than it would have taken him on stick.
Again, not bashing the hitbox; just the lack of clarity in what controllers are FGC approved.

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but it still takes time

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[quote=“jimmy1200, post:221, topic:167994”]

this is what im basing my tekken argument off of. are you seriously telling me this is difficult, and im wrong about your device in what it does for you when it comes to tekken, or are you talking about some out of context in general shit that ive clarified more then once. if you dont think hitboxes have a big advantage over arcade sticks and pads for tekken, then you are smoking that greatest weed ever on planet earth. i dont even know if there are any further shenanigans to be had with a hitbox when it comes to tekken, and this is just a base level skill video for the hitbox with this game.

ive already stated before that the hitbox probably isnt a big deal for most other games, but i dont know, and im sure a lot of people dont. you dont believe in execution barriers though, and you think that shit is just some arbitrary hump in the road for players when it comes to video games, so it will be no shocker when your inevitable reply is, you basically dont see anything wrong with the device when it comes to tekken.

[/quote]

ok first we need not act like working on controller movement on pad doesnt takes time as well.
secondly i have a friend that plays on hitbox and it took him alot of time to get that movement down. Im not gonna sit here and tell you that it didnt look absolutely ridiculous when he was finished though so in a case both of you guys are right.

the reason why its isnt a glaring issue is that the hitbox helps with special movement but it doesnt help with base movement and fundamentals and other then mishimas you dont get a huge boost out of playing any other character except for the backdash cancel which varies from character to character. once i got used to the initial burst of his heihachi i still was able to beat him.

people arent winning significantly enough with the hit box the usual suspects on a higher level ( which i confess with complete honesty to be miles removed from) are still winning. its more of the same.

you can learn the movement in rhythm but the application between practice mode and a actual match is very very different. simply because the very nature of tekken promotes that you dont do anything in excess
less you ignore the tempo of the match

also i disagree with taking away button binding simply because there are button combinations that are easily as shit to press on a stick and hell to press on pad i.e 1+4 and 2+3

ninas ivory cutter is 1+4 a a staple but simple move. a button bind to use that move doesnt hurt anybody especially since if thats the reason you cry for loss/unfairity…you arent very good.

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pad analog stick is a device that triggers diagonals as 1 input. So while a joystick may have an incredibly hard time with an angle input, pads have a built in macro through the analog stick.

if I read those articles correctly, the way analog stick registers an input is severely broken as it mitigates human input error substantially.

oh I know that feeling. I felt that when I told wizard about ps3 marvel in year 2 of mvc3. Then I got banned from shoryuken for describing a problem because of insubstantial proof every good player could see but not a TO in wizard. I wish you would have as much scrutiny against wizard as you do other TOs.

The people determining the rules, in this case wizard about port issues, have 0 knowledge about the rules they’re making. Yet we allow them to make rule after rule as to what is legal or illegal. You’re exacerbating the problem by not addressing simple facts. Take the decision out of TOs hands entirely and lets get a different set of standards in place to allow better decision making.

the same shit you’re giving keits, you should of been giving wizard equally as its just.

those rules suck as they allow every device to have 2 joysticks and 10 buttons. By these rules, pads are allowed which is fine. But if you allow pads, you HAVE to give every other device the same type of chance to be like the other. Which is the basis of all bind arguments for pad, " I can’t hit 3p\3k like on a stick, gimme binds!" 2 input device joysticks and 2 input device hit boxes are now legal?? now joystick users can take that same line of reasoning pad players once used. " I can’t hit 2 joysticks like on a pad, gimme another joystick!" if you’re not going to limit advantages due to devices, then each device technically is allowed the same advantages as the other but no more than that.

also another reason why those rules suck is because it doesn’t limit devices. You’re allowing more devices to sneak in through modding Voice activated joysticks as an example would be allowed at some point in the future through that rule as long as it didn’t force an illegal bind. That rule the community has kind of followed allowed hitboxes and 2 joystick pads into the system with no scrutiny over what they were capable of.

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Only because the people that win tournaments have not decided that Hitbox is a good enough time investment yet. It will happen and it’ll only take a few of them to change everyone’s opinion.
Take a look at James Chen’s and Pr Balrog’s twitter. People are smart and will use whatever advantage they can find.

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It didn’t change with the NRS scene. Even when players won with them.

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It’s a completely different class of input device. The analogy is so forced as to be pointless. On/Off state != angle activated device. Sorry: I thought the offered bet made that clear enough. It’s a pretty dumb comparison, and any logic based upon that comparison is on really sketchy ground.

Different issues: I have a stupid opinion on this one, and did not/do not on the other. You’re not forced to have an opinion about one thing simply because you care about another.
You got banned for the way you approached the issue, not the issue. A more measured approach is generally excellent. Take NKI, for example.

Saying that someone has 0 knowledge of the rules sounds like an unjustified lie. It’s the kind of argumentative belligerence that causes problems for you. :\

I presume that people are operating in good faith and trying to make the best decisions they can that will do the most good for the most people.

? I’m not aware of giving keits any undue grief. I disagree with his opinion, which is temporarily being taken as The Law by some. Our conversation on Twitter seems to confirm to me that his stance is indeed unfortunately haphazard, but reasonably haphazard. My logic is probably equally haphazard. We’re close together - just on the other side of a point in the discussion: there’s no superhuge divide, and disagreeing with somebody isn’t “giving them shit”. Expressing that as such seems to do a disservice to being able to discuss issues and evolve.

I find that the people involved here are operating in good faith to the best of their knowledge and ability (this includes my own limited and dumb self). I don’t think anyone here is a giant fuck-up out to ruin us all. If you do truly think that I do not know why you are here.

That presumes you have to give “each device the same type of chance to be like the other”, which isn’t on my list. You can’t hit 3P/3K like on a stick? QQ suck it up.

“to sneak in”? There’s either legit stuff or non-legit stuff in any given environment. Voice-activated sticks don’t make sense: not sure what your point there is. Hitboxes and 2 joystick pads and other keyboardstrosities aren’t something I for one am really concerned about. That fight appears to have been over a while ago: bringing them up now doesn’t advance this discussion any AFAICT.

Nobody has the time nor energy to supply sticks to everyone at the tournament. People will need to learn to play on and bring their own. If VangiefPads or HitBoxes are the wave of the future, then they are.

The discussion with Keits pointed out to me that regardless of where you draw the line, you’re going to have shitty exceptions/allowances. Oh well.

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^-- most of that explains my disagreement with duckie’s earlier referenced comments. it’s his own pov and that’s fine, but assuming frustration or malice on the part of others is generally needlessly destructive. we’re all going to be wrong at some point: that alone doesn’t mean i’m a bad person.

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sorry preppy but imo, I think this is above your head and even in above my head in some ways. You don’t have a good grasp on how the devices affect the games, you’re just arguing from a logic perspective and even your logic perspective is kind of wrong.

I was right about ps3 marvel when wizard\srk told me I was wrong. I’m telling you honestly the community is wrong about these devices and if you’re not up to a good level of understanding on these games, there is no way I can describe it to anyone.

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My problem with the “no binds/macros/turbo” rule is that you’re essentially creating different rules for different input devices.

On a six button stick, you don’t have room for a 3P/3K softbind. On a pad, you have four face buttons, four shoulder buttons. By default the game provides for 3P/3K on a couple of those shoulders. Now, if the no binds/macros/turbo rule applies to pad users as well, you’re unduly making the game considerably more difficult for players who lack the dexterity to manipulate buttons on different sides of the pad simultaneously (me). In some cases, actually making it impossible for players without full use of their hands/wrists (BrolyLegs, as a high-profile example, who uses the 3K button extensively).

I’m just pointing something out. I mean, I play on a fuckhuge six button stick myself, but I really don’t care what anyone else is using (within reason), so I don’t get why this topic is still so long. I think we need to re-examine some of these rules, guys.

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yup,basically. all its going to take is one boss ass player to really show you whats good, and if you think dealing with a top korean player is bad, imagine a top player of their caliber on hitbox. i think it would be fairly ridiculous to deal with damn near impeccable defense (although you get better defense on a pad vs stick. i know i had better defense on pad and a noticeable decline in blocking slow lows after switching to stick, but that was your reward back then for playing on pad, but you had no binds, so other things were made more difficult, that were easy as pie on stick. thats changed over time, but initially a while ago it was a noticeable difference), while also getting mauled by some of the harder, higher damage, execution heavy combos, and also just dealing with damn near flawless execution of certain moves. 1 FRAME PHOENIX SMASHERS ALL DAY. please lets not forget about 1 frame phoenix smashers. side step a jab and get demolished for 40 percent of your life or more if counter hit or if you are in rage. its only for the elite, and rarely scene, but that shit is stupid, and fairly hard. making that shit easier, oh lawd.

i looked at pr rogs twitter too, hes already talking about he is doing sako combos on his keyboard, and finished all of evil ryus and rogs trials. that hasnt transferred to actual play yet, and he set it up hitbox style on his keyboard by the way. but yeah, as shown by pr rog, he went from a stick player, to finishing beginner and advanced combos in no time, shit he probably fucks up more on a stick, and his next step is to be able to do it in a fight, and we may be on our way to seeing the first truly beastly hitbox player that is going to make everyone salty as shit. lol. but again, i dont know how much it will truly matter in other games, but im sure we will find out soon.

others can not care if they dont want to, but a great hitbox player on tekken, and with some of these tournies allowing button binds for directions, sounds fucking stupid.

access to

easy mode defense
easy mode perfect frame punishes, perfect frame moves, and just frame moves
easy mode high damaging execution heavy combos
easy mode light dashing and bdc’s (even the backdash cancelling for characters like paul, nina, bryan will be easy mode too)
easy mode iws
easy mode dewgf, dotgf, etc
easy mode light dashing into iws mixups
im sure more bullshit im not thinking of, or to come from someone who masters the hitbox for tekken

just my quick on the fly input. peace

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Do you mean this with referece to the thread topic? I already talked about it in this post (see the “edit:” section).

If you were talking about my discussion with D3V, I was merely pointing out that the “the execution barrier is good because variance is hype” and “reducing variance with practice is good” arguments are contradictory. It makes no sense to argue for both simultaneously. D3V has since clarified that his actual argument was “the execution barrier is good because it punishes people who do not want to work to play a game with variance”. This is not an argument that I agree with, but at least it does not logically contradict itself.

Generally if I see someone make an argument that makes no sense to me I will call him out on it, even if I have no significant issue with the argument itself.

I do not like this kind of ruling. Everyone needs to limit themselves because of one move in one game. Ugh.

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Sure, if I’m wrong about something I can’t understand and you won’t explain I can’t discuss the issue. I thought pressing a button and angling a joystick are two different life tasks, but – YMMV.

As re: the community being “wrong” about these kinds of devices: there is no clear and firm line in the sand here for all eternity, just two close but different takes on the issue. Somebody is always going to be wrong: we accept that, realize that people are fallible and that fallibility doesn’t make us bad people, and move on and evolve.

I’ll bow out of this discussion. Evidently there’s secret technology that I’m not and can’t be aware of and that seems like a really fucking boring and dishonest discussion. Can’t argue with Secret I Win Friendly Discussion For Undiscussable Reason technology. :tup:

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the very nature of EWGF dictates that you have to go through the progressions in order to use it
when you skip those progressions then nonsense will happen
the space needed to use it and negotiate for the standard situations in which to utilize it becomes minute
its already 3/4ths of the way close to a fire and forget move as it is

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You mean Snake Eyez =p ?

If people want fair then make a ruling to only use one type of controler/stick…

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I’m sure if someone beat a certain high profile player in a big match with a hitbox he’d flip his shit.

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Isn’t that really what this whole situation is about? If Full Schedule DIDN’T beat Neo and F Champ would anyone have given a shit, or is it because he did beat those players that now we have to call into question whether or not his wins were legit? This is basically what happened in the MK community when REO was playing on Hit Box, especially when he beat Aris. The funny thing is, REO could have beat Aris without Hit Box, he’s just the better player, but because he was on Hit Box Aris was complaining that there is no way he’d be able to do IAGB as low to the ground as consistently and basically blaming his loss on the controller. That sent the community into an uproar about whether Hit Box should be allowed and a bunch of other bullshit and in the end clown shoes dudes like Tom Brady ended up convincing REO to drop Hit Box.

Basically the point I’m making is that it’s stupid to say that someone won because they were using a specific controller or they had button binds or what the fuck ever. Execution is important, but it is not the end all be all. I have great execution and I don’t win shit. Tons of players have great execution but are terrible at actually playing people, where as the dudes who usually end up winning all the tournaments are not dudes who are heralded for their amazing execution, but rather their spacing, movement, footsies, fundamentals, mind games, pressure, mixup, yomi, defense, fucking everything that is not execution. Justin Wong has never had amazing execution, he is just capable of doing enough to win, and with everything else he excels at his execution has never held him back. Meanwhile, Desk is the human TAS and I don’t think anyone’s ever seen him do well at a tournament ever, and he can do fucking infinites in games where that would be game ending.

Also I really hope some idiot doesn’t take what I’ve said and tries the argument “Why not allow macros then.”