It’s all about that arcade game design. As someone once stated, good arcade game design is based around the mantra “Only the skilled may live – the rest will die.” Getting good comes about from work and practice. Thsoe who spend their time meaningfully to get better at the game are rewarded.
An RNG works against that because no amount of skill will beat the RNG. With an execution barrier (i.e. the motions for special moves), players can fail at pulling it off, yet at the same time, they can see other players doing the moves consistently which tells them that “yes, I can learn to do that too.”
But wait, if you’re a Kazuya player it gets even better! It’s just :f:,
Granted this would only work in Tekken 6 (Tekken tag, guess you only get it on one side since you need a tag button).
This should be perfectly legal given that it follows the same rules as the FS stick mod. One button triggers one input only, except for Up+Back and Up+Forward (which are ok) and the stick has multiples of the same input (which is also ok). Keits and co. aren’t gonna ban popsicle sticks are they?
Even without the popsicle sticks this is still a huge advantage. If you can press two buttons on the same frame, like say, doing EX moves manually without the PP§/KK(K) macros in 3rd strike or KoFXIII, then you too can do EWGFs flawlessly, no popsicles needed. :tup:
I understand the logic, even though I don’t actually agree with the idea. My preference is to design games that reward people for actually playing them, and shift the emphasis away from drilling rote execution in training mode. Let them work on countering my strategies and practice reading my plan of attack, not use up all their time learning how to press buttons repetitively.
I just read that entire article on skilled living and the rest dying. It was a nice nostalgia trip. Brought me back to the days I spent hogging the Tekken 2 machine at the local arcade back in high school.
From a practical sense, though, I don’t really see that attitude there as helping me now. It has way too much focus on other players, and putting up hoops for them to jump through to prove themselves. I don’t really care whether my opponents prove themselves or not. I just want to fight strong opponents. Maybe they trained for years and got real good through blood, sweat and tears. Maybe they’re just bursting with natural talent and they got up to my level in one afternoon. It’s all the same to me.
Personally, I like the concept of making it so that there is that slight chance to fail, yet at the same time I hate RNG type mechanics, so the concept of execution as providing that while allowing players to overcome it with skill.
Speaking of which, we probably have slightly different definitions of strong players. To me, simply knowing how to counter strategies or read their opponents isn’t everything. There’s also that aspect of being able to perform consistently under pressure.
It definitely seems that we diverge on that point. I simply define a “strong player” as anyone who can present me with a challenge to overcome and improve myself.
its pretty simple at this point. fs’s stick is fine now, because to’s arent going to start banning pads anytime soon, or even hitboxes for that matter, but the conversation needs to happen outside of shitty twitter, and personal text, phone calls, and email, to see how to keep the integrity we’ve had for so long, but also keep the fgc open and welcoming.
do i feel some type of way knowing a hitbox or modded stick player just has to tap a few directional buttons in a certain order to get light dashes in tekken, into easy mode iws moves, ewgf, etc…? yeah, i do, because as a player who plays a lot of tekken, and has put in a lot of time to trying to master those skill sets on stick, i know how much that levels up your game, and how fucking hard it is to get your movement that good. but i just have to hold that L because thats just life now in the tournament scene, and even online, in the fgc, with the latter (online) not mattering as much. i mean pad also had advantages over stick in tekken also, in just the execution barrier coming in and then getting to a good level, but it had limits since you couldnt bind back then, so you had to play claw style to really use a lot of characters full potential.
that rant aside. yeah, i feel some type of way about a lot of stuff, but to be redundant, the fact of the matter is, there are other shenanigans allowed outside of fullschedules stick, and until those are addressed, banning his stick doesnt make sense, nor would it properly fit into most tournaments rules, considering how others play on pad, or maybe even modified hitboxes (i know little about this device).
one thing ive learned in the fgc, is never doubt a players ability to make the impossible, possible, and then normal. seeing cloud805 do that dante combo using what seem to be two analog sticks, is something that would seem like an impossible task for me, and yet hes using them shits like its nothing. so with that said, taking these dedicated and skilled players into question, where do you lay the law down at, and how fair is it to the player, especially in a game like umvc3 which has no arcade basis at the very LEAST.
so this is the slippery slope we are on now, and unless tournaments plan on having someone standing to the side staring at pad players hands to make sure they arent using any analog situations, things potentially can get pretty raunchy in the future with those who dont give a fuck about execution barriers, and will build a stick to fit their needs, that will be tourney legal, and allow them to just easy mode difficult shit.
to’s did this to themselves. constantly ignoring shit, just accepting whatever with little forethought, and only having “closed conversations” about things. now you have to either look like idiotic hypocrites, or accept shit into your tourney that could get out of hand for those willing to master their custom setups.
we’ll see how things change, if they do, or if this is just a minor hiccup that doesnt cause an uproar in the future. as large as the scene is now, i wouldnt be shocked to see some people a year from now wrecking shop with custom sticks, and tourney players who face them are just gonna have to hold that L.
to’s can sit around thinking, well this can only get but so crazy, no big deal, and then someone comes in with a custom stick or hitbox doing obscene shit fairly easy mode. i remember when people in irc were like, tac infinites arent a big deal, whats the point in risking the drop, blah blah blah, and that was coming from known players and to’s, now look at umvc3. lol. the community never ceases to shock me with how naive it is at times.
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i wonder if a stricter rule of banning all binds. you can have like lp, rp, lk, rk, and your bumpers be like lp, rp, lk, rk, but you cannot have any lp+rp shit period. obviously you just have to hold that dual analog L with pad players, but they will take a hit not being able to bind buttons now. people will disagree with this, but unless you have a medical issue, throw that hitbox shit the fuck out of here too, or at the very least for certain games. hitboxes are here to stay though i bet, just because no one wants to have the balls enough to be like, “yeah you have to practice hard on it like any controller to be good, but is shit like easy mode light dashes, ewgf, iws, bdc, etc… really fair to those who have spent a much harder time mastering the execution for those movements on pad and stick, not to mention just the general competitive integrity of the game itself”.
i think with those simple changes i listed above, the fgc would pretty much be good when it comes to bind issues, and if you are really that desperate for that freedom of dual analogs on a pad, then feel free to master it, but we’re taking binds away from everyone, so you may prefer to just start figuring out how to use a stick. **
unfortunately what i suggested in bold will never see the light of day outside of locals. id like to see a major step up to the plate soon, and let er rip when it comes to this shit.
Forcing people to play on stick would be the dumbest shit ever. People have different motor skills and not everyone plays the best on that shit. Yeah, I could grind stick for years and maybe get to be proficient at it, but I’d never be as good as I am on my Hit Box because my personal physical dexterity is in my fingers, not my wrist. I’ve tried playing on pad and stick for years and nothing has ever been as good as keyboard to me.
Frankly, if there ever gets to be a day when Hit Box is banned, I’m just out. The tournament scene could die for all I care because I refuse to be forced to change device. I’ve been playing fighters competitively since about 2006 and throughout my time playing I have been constantly getting shit for not playing on stick. Things have changed though, it used to be I was mocked and laughed at for playing on keyboard, no one would take me seriously, everyone would tell me “You can’t do X on keyboard, Y is impossible, stop being a scrub and just learn to play on stick.” But now, now that I have my god damn keyboard and other people are starting to feel the same way I have for years, now you get this ignorant shit about keyboard is too good now. Get the fuck out of here. I went from being a joke to people trying to take my shit away from me because they’re afraid they made the wrong choice.
I don’t care how long it took you to master some arbitrary bullshit in a game, you have no idea how long I’ve been grinding my execution from a fundamental standpoint. To say that my controller just makes everything easier without anything from me is just ignorant.
It’s almost irrelevant, if HitBox is straight up better (not saying it is or not) then “pros” should switch to it, the same way that people get told to switch from pad to stick.
This. I feel that even though most players right now are not in favor of macros because they allow “dumb shit” we really are not that far away from allowing them. Especially since most new players show complete disregard (or perhaps lack of understanding) to the purpose of execution in the first place.
We need to set some kind of standard and I just don’t feel that the FGC is having enough input on this by letting everything be handled by TO’s. I do not want to persecute pad or hitbox players but at the very least we should set some limits on how much “customizing” is allowed.
Hitbox allows you to do perfect bdc, ewgf, wavedash, even unnecessary heihachi/hwoarang jf. It delivers what years of practice can’t and that is precision. The only reason nobody is winning with it is because nobody cares about Tekken or it’s competitive scene. I think even in Korea and Japan the game is dead or close to dead now.
I heard a rumour a while back that hitbox allows you to block both directions in umvc3 but I’m not sure. I imagine that would be very useful.
I feel bad for Full Schedule. The guy convincingly beat Wong, beat FC, then gets ostracised for cheating. I imagine he will rock up to a tournament again and do well without even using his controversial stick.
No one is saying that hitbox players are cheaters, cheap etc. Like you I went from pads to keyboard and finally stick in 09. You can look objectively at sticks vs hitbox and see that hitbox are the better device. What people are asking for is that TOs and the FGC at large make a ruling on what kinds of things are banned. I’d hate to invest in a hitbox and the time it takes to convert only to have it banned lol.
who said anything about forcing people to play on stick? lol. you cant say you cant be as good on something without even trying. playing on stick isnt like building a rocket with no hands. i think about any non handicapped human being can learn to play on any controller they want if they want to put in the time.
the hitbox shit is just my opinion, and im not sure how “too good” it is in other games, but that shit can get the fuck outta here when it comes to tekken. i can imagine hitbox would be here to stay for most games, but im not sure of other bullshit in other games with hitbox, if there is anything. you just have a chip on your shoulder, and need to calm down.
you can give me a hitbox right now, and in an hour max i would be light dashing, bdc, wave dashing into iws, perfect ewgf, etc… shit that would take a normal person a few months to get down on a pad from scratch, and even longer on a stick. from your post it sounds like you dont care about competitive integrity. you think mastering movement in games is just arbitrary bullshit? specifically in tekken, the thing that makes the difference between good players and great players, and is meant to be taken as serious as any other aspect of the game you learn, is arbitrary bullshit that should be allowed to be easily circumvented by using a device that turns months and years of hard work into a week long task? i disagree with that personally. while i understand the frustrations with having to master something like bdc in tekken, and it could be easily simplified in a newer version, i respect that its an aspect of the game developers want you to learn and master. its a part of being a great tekken player that you have to learn right now.
just my opinion. its whatever. i mean, i dont really have the same respect for pad tekken players as i do stick players either, but at least the path on pad is still one that takes a bit of time to master execution wise, but now with the current rulings on bindings for ufgt and ceo events, with probably more majors to come, and the potential of a custom hitbox stick for tekken, i say hitbox needs to go in general for tekken, and definitely no modded hitboxes with extra buttons for binds.
i seriously doubt hitboxes will go in general. but we have to acknowledge when a controller simplifies certain things in the game too much imo, but i know many players these days just think execution is a stupid hurdle, that is dated, and we should be allowed to circumvent that hurdle however we want to. which if find to be ludicrous
