i hope you are implying that xmvsf is so much more broken than mvc2. And whats with “nobody wants to play xmvsf because its broken”? xmvsf is probably, if not, the most balance vs series game that has come out by capcom.
actually there were TONS of people playing xvsf back in the day. I remember when this game dropped, 3 cabs game into the arcade for this game and people were on this game non stop for quite a while. The reason the game didn’t last as long as mvc2 or other games is because this game was still during capcoms time where they kept releasing games regularly. They released MSHvsSF, you had MvC1 as well. ** So the series lost interest due to other series coming about. Many good games suffer this fate, its the nature of the beast.** The game dying had nothing to do with the balance of the game. Just like the way mvc1 died when mvc2 dropped.
games like ST, 3s, cvs2, mvc2 managed to stay for a while because there were no updates to these series. They were the last incarnations of their games so they became the tourney standard.
some nights at tampa lanes when marvel 2 was really popular, we’d have a line for xvsf and nobody putting quarters up on marvel 2.
Actual experience is a good thing when making points.
Mixup:
HoOw long ago was that and where was that, exactly? With the exception of my country, everywhere that I went, once MvC2 dropped, everything else died.
And XSF got relegated to shits and giggles long before MvC2 dropped. MvC2 came in hyped as hell thanks to MvC1.
BTW, MegamanDS is right: XSF IS the most balanced of the Vs. games. MvC2 is probably the least balanced, just due to sheer numbers (i.e. the gap between the top and bottom in MvC2 is greater than in the others. That just goes to show that balanced = overrated.
During marvels most popular period in the states, it was always like that at tampa lanes(Fl). I’m not making the claim that xvsf was popular still, it just maintained its old school following, many of the players were in late 20s/early 30s. Tampa was wierd though, 4 marvel cabinets and sometimes they were all empty : /
fuck that place ;p
I can say, with confidence, that XSF is the most broken game out of the line of capcom vs. series and is the most balanced game.
Broken game
XSF not only has every single property that marvel has (FSD, infinites, unfly, etc) but it has even more elements of brokenness.
Dashing
There are no dashing properties in that game. Meaning, I can jump with mag or storm and rush down one frame after jumping. There is no waiting time to dash. I have seen fanatiq dash so fast with magneto that he looks like he is still on the floor but doing overhead hits.
Throws
Throws deal damage. And I mean DAMAGE. Not only is the throw itself (with every character) super strong dealing about 15% health, but you can combo off almost every throw in the game. Magneto’s FP throw is untechable. On top of that, you can throw characters up. So put this together and you got a magneto FP throw that throws the characters upward while you are anywhere and can dash up and start your combo off it. Most of you top mvc2 players know about the 2 throw rule in marvel right? You can only throw twice and then have to wait until the character is fully recovered or the game won’t let you throw again. Well in xmvsf, there is also a 2 throw rule. But in xmvsf, its you can only COMBO two back to back throws. Meaning, I can throw you with FK with magneto in the corner, then while you are falling, I can grab you with FP and it COMBOS.** Broken yet?**
Links
We all see the best element of SF4 as poking and linking lp and lk moves in order to cancel to super. Well, xmvsf has that too. With storm, you can link cr.lk 3x to launch just so you can hit confirm that you got it. Same with cammy and a few others. You can also do this in air combos. Magneto can link his jumping cr.lk over and over and over again.
Infinites
In this game, every character has an infinite. And I’m not talking marvel infinite for 40 hits until dizzy, I mean infinite til death. Imagine iron man catching you in his infinite, except you don’t dizzy. Well that’s exactly what xmvsf is. Any of the 17 characters can hit you once and kill you, guard break your next character and do the same. Top players know about the 200%. This is where you do one combo to kill off the first character AND THEN continue comboing the 2nd character before they even come in and kill them. No guardbreak, no random jabs on the way in, you just CONTINUE THE COMBO OFF THE FIRST DEAD CHARACTER.** BROKEN!? I THINK SO!**
I’m not gonna get into invincibility frames, supers, double teams, tags or flying at all. But there is more than just this.
Now, lets go to balanced.
Most Balanced game
First, lets just talk numbers. Marvel has 56 characters. Now I am going to be nice and count assists as characters because they are necessary for the team to work. So we got Magneto, Storm, Sent, Cable, Iron man, Strider, Spiral and the assists, psylocke, commando, doom, cyclops, cammy, tron. That is 13 characters. Its early right now so I might be missing a few or some might argue mid tiers are playable, so I am gonna say 18 playable characters. So 18/56, that is 32% of playable characters.
Now, xmvsf has 17 total characters. I am going to say (even though they are playable) that bison and zangief are the 2 hardest characters to play and therefore, people don’t pick them. So that’s 15/17 which is 88% of a playable cast. I think that is the highest percentage of actual game playable characters in any game. Now don’t get me wrong, their are tiers in the game, but there are also counters as well. But the lowest tier still has a chance at beating the highest tier because everyone has a shot at winning with the brokeness I listed above (pokes, infinites…).
Just watch me and dogface play, I use S-tier (mag, storm) and he uses 1 A-tier and 1 B-tier (Wolv, cammy) and he sometimes SLAUGHTERS me because each character has individual properties and levels of *brokeness *that make them so good. That is why that game is so balanced. You can literally ask me to play any two characters vs dogface any two characters and you will be watching in shock how well balanced and crazy this game can get.
Any of you big MSP players, go try xmvsf and pick mag storm and see how fun that game is. I am shocked that after mvc2 big hit, the marvel players didn’t migrate to xmvsf. It is essentially the same game.
Oh I can’t forget, execution is 1000000x harder in xmvsf because you have to dash with 3p and you can create more combos because you can link straight into mp and mk. Imagine rushdown with mk in marvel? Whooaaaaaaaaaa!
The two throw rule exists in almost every Marvel game (not sure about COTA, but I think it’s there too) and it’s unrelated to throw comboing. Even in non-comboed throws, after the second throw in a string, there will be a window where the opponent is unthrowable (similar to the unthrowable window when someone is standing up after a knockdown in most SF games).
e.g. in MVC1, if you do punch throw-> combo to ground infinite with RV, you can reset them with one more punch throw, but if you attempt another throw reset, you will just get a standing punch instead.
You’re joking, right?
yes, i know, but xmvsf is the only game where you can combo two throws back to back. And about SF4, I don’t touch the game but I am positive “footsies” are a big big part of it. I saw evo finals last year with daigo and it was all about who can land the lp/lk to start up there combo. You play sf4, what do you think is the element? 3s revolves around pokes
Works in COTA for sure, and I think it works in MSH too (but I can’t remember a combo example offhand).
Poking and footsies? Sure, that’s fine.
Jab jab short jab special? Not a big fan, myself.
so if the 38 non-viable characters in MvC2 weren’t there at all, then the game would be more balanced?
18 viable characters is more characters than even exist in XvSF, i don’t understand this logic at all.
by your count, there are 20% more viable characters in MvC2 than XvSF which i’m sure i could wrangle into some kind of silly maths to prove my point but this was a ridiculous argument. the number of non-viable characters is completely irrelevant to anything.
Its not the number of playable characters in the game, its the ratio to playable/non-playable. I am arguing against the argument of “we only see the big 4 in tournaments, the game is unbalanced”. What is your definition of a balanced game? If your gonna argue my theory, at least provide me with yours so I can see where your logic is coming from
MegamanDS’s evaluation is correct; it’s the question itself that’s flawed.
People talk about “balance” as if it’s meaningful, when what they really want is variety. The original Street Fighter is the most balanced fighting game Capcom has made (or could ever make) in that it only has two identical characters, but it has no variety at all. MVC2 is one of the least balanced fighting games Capcom has made, but it has more competitive variety than pretty much every other fighter in existence.
you don’t understand it because you have no concept of math. Do you know how much tax dollars you wasted by attending public school? you didn’t learn shit apparently because this is BASIC.
scrubs can’t do shoryukens and they can’t apparently use math. Its starting to add up?!???
the remaining 38 characters outside of top tier mvc2 is still quit a bit. Most games don’t even reach this many characters. Since marvel is so big cast wise, its one of the few games to actually have a dedicated low tier system.
so no, the last 38 characters aren’t useless. They’re used in the low tier system.
how many games have a top and low tier tournament thats gone on for years? @ any big mvc2 tournament, you will see low tier matches. Marvel is 1 game that has 2 separate forms.
In a word yes.
There are two arguments here and you’re picking the one people AREN’T complaining about. For whatever reason noone care that MVC2 has more viable characters, they just care that there are characters on the selection screen that can’t win against the top tier. If you removed either the all of the tournament viable characters or the non tournament viable characters from the game either of the resulting games would get far less complaints than MVC2.
For Shoryuken purposes non playable character don’t matter much but for the general public and scrubs it makes them angry for whatever reason; which is why the more i think about it the more giving the people the option to turn character squares on the selection screen off is the best answer. SF4 and MVC2 both come with squares on the screen that can’t be accessed until the character is unlocked so it can’t be that hard. Give scrubs the option of turning each character off in the privacy of their own homes on the options menu and this problem goes away. I mean anything goes online but who care if someone who has no ambition to ever go to a tournament turn Sent, storm, or cable or whoever off when they play there cousin or little brother. They’ll get flamed to death for bringing it up on here, but they’ll be happier with the game they bought.
if you really break down the option sets, you probably have 25 characters with options against tops. The problem with mvc2 and scrubs is that a scrub will pick siderman\servebot\akuma then make the statement, WHY DOES SPIDERMAN SUCK!!! spiderman is actually rather good, ON THE RIGHT TEAM. You just don’t see this with entry level players. They blame the game rather than blaming themselves for not knowing team chemistry concepts.
You can’t pick 3 random characters on the same team and expect them to do extremely well. Its just not gonna work because of team chemistry which is something that entry players can’t wrap their head around.
in 1v1 games, you can be like, ok I’ll play this guy and I can apply basics. In mvc2, its a team game and your team has to be able to apply the basics, not an individual character so its far more complex even @ a basic level. If every player understood team chemistry as it applies to mvc2, you would see less bitching from the scrubs because they would be able to design teams that function properly.
if you want to play spiderman in mvc2 successfully, you have to analyze his weakness\strenghts and assign corresponding assists to highlight his strength if you want or make some of his weakness not as relevant with proper assists. There are other factors to team chemistry but this is a big jist of it. Analyzing one characters abilites and matching up that character with assists that help you out.
I guess if you count like a psychological effect… Like how things might be priced at 29.95 to seem cheaper, that kind of thing. But in the end, the cost and the balance is really the same.
The 38 useless characters are like the 5 cents, they don’t really count when it comes down to it.
(Note that this pricing thing might be incorrect, I don’t shop in America. But you get the point. If there exists 5 cent coins, then it doesn’t work. In my country, the prices will be lowered below the “real” amount with so little that it kinda rounds up anyway because there are no coins with such low value anymore)
@MMDS, agreed with regards to the percentage of characters in XVSF which are playable.
Honestly, had they given charlie and wolverine’s RKs knockdown properties as opposed to leaving in their FS infs, that game would have been tits as far as a balanced vs game is concerned.
I’m big into both games now, as poor as my mvc2 is in comparison to my xvsf…
but from the posts i’ve read here, one thing I do agree with is that Capcom characters should have properties to their poke strings that allow them to compete.
In xvsf, you could use your anti air mediums to box out trijumpers to an extent.
This was more evident with some of the marvel cast, ie Gambit and Rogue, who had buff MKs.
They will have to consider controls above nearly all else should they choose to have a large viable cast without alienating core gamers.
Not quite.
The other characters aren’t useless the problem is MVC2 is actually TWO very good very fairly balanced games stacked on top of each other at this point and the fact that the two can’t be separated from each other hurts both of them.
High tier marvel suffers in public opinion for having so many character on the selection screen that can’t be used.
And low tier marvel suffers from not having a way to stop someone from picking top tiers which usually ends the low tier fun.
What i’m saying is that giving people the option of which of the 3 games they want to play, unbalanced full MVC2, balanced High tier MVC2, or balanced low tier MVC2 gives the customer more satisfaction for their purchase and doesn’t cost capcom anything. So it seems like something that would clearly benefit MVC3 to have.
I also agree with this to an extent. Team synergy is very important to the game. I think if magneto is paired with roll and shuma gorath, the “power” magneto has drops significantly. Now, I’m not saying a good magneto would lose to a scrub that doesn’t know how to play because we all know magneto can kill teams by himself, its just a lot harder.
Also, I don’t want to toot my own horn, but I play mixed top tier with low tier ALOT and low tiers can hang in there but only slightly. I have teams with IM/akuma, Megaman/Guile, Jill/spiral, etc… and because of the synergy they share together, its very possible to win.
This video here shows how bad scrubs can be
[media=youtube]6Stgxojz3B0[/media]
This shows that low tier can beat top tier if they have the right flow
[media=youtube]eAGtn5SwST4[/media]
[media=youtube]jQ2d2-2Q714[/media]
i have several plaques and medals attesting to my understanding of math.
what i’m not understanding however is the inability of some to multiply by zero. if i made an impeccably balanced fighting game, then added a useless joke character, i don’t see how my game would be less balanced because the joke character would be irrelevant. percentage of viable characters is far less important than the raw number of viable characters.
street fighter 1 is perfectly balanced in that 100% of its 1 characters are viable. a game with 5 out of 20 or 5 out of 10 characters being completely tournament-viable without a clear cut dominant character is still a better balanced game