Nerds can’t propel the best cult movie to a blockbuster status either. Hardcore FG players are the true nerds of the community, those who really care about small technical things like input lag that are only significant to people who are playing at very high levels. Casuals only use hardcore gamers’ complaints as an extra argument to show that the game is not “okay” for some reason, even if they aren’t affected the least by those issues.
I do play on PC. I disabled briefly the v-sync and the difference wasn’t really game changing (aside from being horrible and distracting to look at). With the v-sync on I can beat players that I know they’re playing with v-sync off and that on top of it are globally better than me.
Again, unless you’re playing at a level when people are able to count frame by frame and punish consistently a -5 move with a 5 framer, the 3 additional frames don’t make any difference in 95% of the situations. They make even less difference because the game has a bigger input buffer and the moves are generally slower than in SF4 (e.g. throws are 2f slower and overheads are 2-3f slower).
Do you know anything about cars? I sure as fuck don’t. I don’t know a spark plug from a butt plug, but some gear head comes in and adds 30HP to my car, improves the steering, makes the brakes more responsive yea I sure as fuck feel the difference.
You guys are basically saying only gear heads would be able to tell a difference, this is silly. Do I know what he did or what the problem was No, I couldn’t articulate it in a review, but of course id feel it anyone would. This notion that casual gamers or your average street fighter player wouldn’t be able to tell is retarded. You said it yourself you didn’t know what input delay was but you sure as hell felt lt. Gamers that know less than you or are less hardcore than you or whatever are still human beings and they’re not any less smart or more smart they just have different priories in life.
And here’s another thing to keep in mind. Your average HDTV adds anywhere from 3 frames to like 5. You’re talking a variance in displays from good to bad of around 3 frames. Well we’re talking 8 frames here. And that’s built into the game, that’s on top of any display lag itself.
You can have it both ways. I’m not a PC guy, but my friend had it with VSync off but no screen tearing, the image was perfect, I think he may have had a special display or something. No I wouldn’t recommend doing it if the screen tears like hell or whatever, all I’m saying is there is a work around.
We had a buddy in our group who had this horrible display with awful lag and we all were like “wtf this is terrible”, the guy was like “what are you talking about its great!” There’s people who hook DVD players to HDTV via Composite Cables and think it looks fantastic, hey Idk what’s wrong with these people and I’m not saying you’re like that, but I do find it odd and question if someone is telling the truth when they say they can’t tell with a 4frame difference. Not saying you’re lying, like I said some people have low standards or are just weird it’s not an insult it is what it is but please don’t force your low standards on everyone else. It also could be some weird misplaced bias towards Capcom or simply wanting to win an argument. Just guesses. Anyways good day we’ll agree to disagree.
That’s kind of wrong. Whether the game is 30 or 60 FPS they all typically have a response time, but input on controller to display on screen, of four frames when excluding other mitigating factors. The benefit of being in 60FPS is that the response time is faster, due the the fact that a frame in 60FPS is drawn for a shorter time than 30FPS. Four frames in 60FPS is 67ms while four frames in 30FPS is 133ms.
But guess what, when you nudge the input delay to eight frames in a 60FPS game it’s also 133ms. Completely eliminating the advantage it had. SFV is essentially a 30FPS fighter to your hands.
Your friend was probably playing with g-sync, which is a special “adaptive” version of v-sync that still adds input lag but not so much as regular v-sync. There are many reasons why you can’t make g-sync a standard for everyone, the main one being that everyone would have to replace his screen and GPU with more expensive ones.
I’m not forcing my standards on anyone - of course, the more a game is responsive the better it is - but I was just saying that it doesn’t have the influence on sales and on the casuals that you’re claiming it has. Reducing the input lag without fixing things like single player content or netcode will turn SF5 into a game that all FG nerds like to praise but that no one will buy or play outside tournaments - basically, a dead game.
On a last note, I don’t think either that hardcore players received SF5 as badly as you picture them. Many of them are happy of not having to deal with all the shitty mechanics they’ve been complaining about for years and we see many former 3S players coming back after being quiet during the SF4 years. To put it simply, unsatisfied customers are always more vocal that satisfied ones; and despite these issues, most people agree that this game’s engine is still a step forward compared to his predecessor. Also, because they lived through a few iterations of the SF franchise they are aware that the vanilla version is rarely the best one and that they have solid reasons to think things will be improved later.
Still if you polled a majority of the casual fairweather SF fans that just play for kicks (the ones who made up the most sales) most of them aren’t going to bring up the lag or even know it exists. Especially when other games like KOF XIV are 7 frames of lag.
Not bringing up the lag or knowing it exists doesn’t mean anything. It could have negatively effected their enjoyment of the game without knowing exactly what the problem was.
People will tell you Maryland water tastes bad, but they couldn’t tell you exactly what’s in it that makes it that way. People can look at Rob Liefeld drawings and notice there is something off about them without being able to articulate why.
Sometimes developers have to use their own brains to figure out problems rather than polling absolute morons who would defend eight frames of lag.
Yeah, many people become enlightened about why things are going wrong when they learn that jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams.
Sorry but I can’t take seriously “butterfly effect” arguments in this situation. We are talking about 2-3f of lag when the average human reaction time is around 20f and for a game that is much slower than anything that came before… Thinking that 90% of people that are unsatisfied about SF5 are like that because they are secretly feeling input lag is a random statement that you can pull off whenever you want because it’s simply impossible to prove.
No, you are talking about 2-3F of lag because you believe SFIV is the only other fighting game within existence. Despite the fact that 3 more frames over 5 is a 60% increase and nullifies the benefit of 60FPS. Most any fighter people play will be 60FPS with less input lag. You can bring up your outcasts but it doesn’t compare to the bulk of games out there.
Good news! Nobody is making this claim, but I do see someone denying that “most casuals” would be unable to notice a difference. Whoa, that was you.
I’m chalking this up to inexperience. I can’t count the number of times someones has been playing a game and said it felt weird, then had someone suggest turning off V-Sync. Or ask if they’re playing in borderless windowed mode. Or people feeling microstutters.
Just going to drop this simple video in here for anyone trying to understand why reduced input lag is important to feel. Jump to 52 seconds. https://youtu.be/vOvQCPLkPt4?t=51s
Yeah, in fact I remember that when SFV first became playable a lot of people complained about the game feeling “slow” or sluggish despite the actual pace of the gameplay being faster than IV. I think a lot of that feeling may have been due to the extra input lag.
A sort of relevant anecdote: I used to play CS:GO with v-sync on not knowing that it’s a terrible setting to use in Source engine games due to the input lag it introduces. One day I turned off v-sync after reading an optimization guide and I could INSTANTLY recognize the difference, as aiming was easier and more responsive than it had ever been before. So input lag is a handicap regardless of whether you notice it or not.
Yeah I bet if I had two versions one with the 8f of lag and one with 4f and asked which plays better or if they can tell 9/10 would pick the game that doesn’t play like molasses.
Ok so because KOFXIV has shitty lag as well that makes it OK. So horrible input delay is OK so long as every other game follows suit, just lower the bar. Fantastic.
May I ask who you are in the FGC. Are you a top player in anything? I have never in my 12 years on this board ever had someone defending 8 frames of lag, or any level of input lag for that matter.
Rewind the clocks. When I first started out here the Xbox 1 version of SF3 was fresh… That game had input lag online, obviously this was before GGPO was invented… Back then lag-free online play was just a dream, nobody thought it was possible until GGPO came around, it was a godsend…yet here I am a decade later with someone telling me input delay doesn’t matter because the human response time is 20f. To be honest with you and not sugar coat things, you make me sick and insult my intelligence.
This is the same board that went apeshit for years about ONE frame of lag in the PS3 version of SFIV, who was pissed as hell over the shitty 8f of lag in the PS4 version of SFIV, the same board that disqualified the Dreamcast port of Super Turbo because it had 1 additional frame of delay compared to the Arcade… Either standards here have gone down the fucking drain or we have millenial fanboy dumbshits who suck at fighters acting like they know something.
Imagine you’re driving your car, and Hillary Clinton collapses in front of you. You react just in the knick of time, right at frame 20 (which I don’t buy for a second btw, human reaction is a lot faster than 333ms) you react just in time except OOPS, you didn’t because your power steering has 8 additional frames of lag. Hillary is dead. Sure you did the nation a favor but human blood is hard to clean out of your car’s grill trust me, I know.
Also I wasn’t talking shit on gear heads at all, you must have misinterpreted something I said.
@ParryAll@mIRC are right in that it doesn’t matter if people can articulate why the game feels off. If it feels off, it feels off. I remember trying the SFV beta fall 2015 and I turned it off after playing like 10 minutes. I assumed it didn’t feel good to play because it was online lag or because I was using a pad. But not, the game doesn’t feel as good as it should. You feel the disconnect between the moment you hit the Jab button and then your character does it on screen split seconds later. It’s not 1:1.
That said, the game feels far from bad, but there’s definitely room for improvement. Some stages don’t run well either.
Right. Im just still not convinced the majority of people in user reviews had that as a legitimate complaint and therefore that leading to heavy lost sales. Thats just not logical or generally understanding of what the majority of people buy a video game for.
Yeah I agree. The majority of the casual audience’s main complaints were the lack of arcade mode and there “only” being 16 characters. But that’s launch window stuff, and the ship’s already sailed for that type of blind buy.
Now, it really is about making the hardcore gamers happy and getting them to spread word that the game is great. They’ll be the ones praising Street Fighter V: Round 2 on forums and social media, and casuals will finally wanna get in on the action.
Take Steam for example. Fixing the 8F, adding D-Input, making the online play better will get the game much better reviews than adding shit the casuals wanted at launch, like Arcade Mode. And then when the reviews (hopefully) go up to 80% positive, casuals will finally start picking it up when it goes on sale.
I’m not trying to own this thread I’d rather let others do the talking. Why isn’t there a delete post function anymore?
If you had a casual gamer in front of you, and you let him play Super Mario Bros on NES on an LCD with lag, they would hate the game.
Then you take another casual gamer and you let him play Super Mario Bros on NES on a CRT with no lag, they will love the game.
If you ask the first one to write a review he’ll say the game was too hard or this or that, he’s not going to say there was input delay because 9/10 times they wouldn’t know what input delay was.
People can feel the delay, even casuals. But they are casual so instead of saying the game is slow or has 8 frames or whatever, they will just say “to themselves” the control isn’t the best, it feels like molasses, something isn’t right.