If you think of only back dash or back flip you will always have problems. Sometimes the best answer is not invincible at all.
So, basically, block. Which every other character in the game has.
Nope. Tools like c.MK and slide can low profile some of Akuma’s mix ups making them unsafe (Cross up Tatsu, Deep dive kicks, etc.) . Vega’s wider hit box prevents the crazy ambiguous Akuma has against Cammy, Chun, etc. Vega’s 4 frame long reaching normals helps push Akuma out to a more favorable range after a successful block (In fact Vega wins the post throw tech situation). Vega’s crouching hit box causes some of Akuma’s strings to whiff when they normally connect against other characters. Instant jump HP actually can punish DF Grab.
If you want to hear “This option beats every last option Akuma has” you’ll never find it. Not even the mythical 3 frame DP everyone talks about does that. But you will find that certain options Akuma has do have counters.
Vega is not top tier against Akuma’s vortex, but he isn’t bottom tier either. If you truly want to see miserable try Chun or Cody. Not only can I do the same things against them that I can against Vega, I can do some pretty messed up stuff in addition to it.
“Vega doesn’t have it so rough on KD compared to so many other characters”
I don’t know about you but I was talking about KD and that is the context I was having a discussion with you about.
Those tools you listed have start up, and will get beat if you press buttons on wake up. Sure, when he is on his feet those are options, but on wake up after a KD? Nah, no way. You’re crazy. Every Akuma and their mother is going to meaty pressure either in his face or on cross up and there isn’t anything Vega can do about it on wake up. If anyone is using any of those options on wake up and escaping then the Akuma isn’t timing the meaty attacks right.
this seems like a pretty cool tumblr thread
sigh
I love being called crazy when I’m right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_yWiypuD4&feature=youtu.be
Exhibit A: A Dive Kick Set up that hits both standing and crouching Vega. It’s also meaty enough to beat reversal EX flip. So it seems like Vega has no options against this right? Nope. c.MK causes it to whiff clean leaving Akuma negative.
So what does this do? It forces Akuma to time his Dive kicks early in order to beat the c.MK, BUT this also makes it 20 times easier to block compared to before. This is because the complimentary mix up option, Cross over empty Palm, hits at a different timing than the dive kick which allows you to switch directions in a way that allows you to block both options. Aka this makes it significantly harder for Akuma to run a convincing mix up. Which will get you past 95% of the Akuma players in the world because they don’t know what to do to stop this.
This also works against cross up tatsu’s. In fact Vega’s crouching hit boxes are small enough he can just duck it and punish which makes it a risky mix up to go for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QltpuZmkGZ8&feature=youtu.be
Exhibit B: A meaty DF Grab set up getting punished with j.HP. The Akuma dummy was set to block after attempting the grab. What does this do? It makes the palm/throw mix up a little more risky to do. If you guess wrong you only take 100 damage into another KD, if you guess right you get 100-120 damage depending on if you get a counter hit. It’s the way I tell people to challenge this mix up. Other characters have better options like Makoto who can blow it up for a full combo, but this is enough that Akuma’s risk/reward isn’t that great.
Also I might add against poorly spaced or timed DF palm EX Scarlet will actually win because of the way the hit boxes interact. It’s quite annoying.
Overall palm/throw is a weak mix up in general, but especially so against characters who can actually punish the throw with an instant air move because then you are betting 100-130 damage against 100 damage which with the health difference means you are betting the same amount of health you’ll be taking from the opponent.
**Will this beat the vortex every time? ** No it won’t. But what this does is forces the Akuma player to limit his mix up game to the options that will consistently work and also force him to be tight on his timing. Which the vast majority of Akuma players you are talking about are not tight on their timing. This in turn makes it easier to guess which option will be coming. This can beat the vortexes of players who don’t know how to adjust to it because it allows you to force the vortex into being one dimensional.
You might say “This will never work against high level Akuma players” which is bullshit you know why? Because a high level Akuma player (In fact high level players in general) will test your knowledge and if he finds you can’t deal with this he is going to exploit that again and again and again because you can’t deal with it. That’s how Tokido, Infiltration, etc. plays.
They will use less than ideal set ups if you can’t show you can stop them because there is no risk and all the reward.
crMK under those moves is cool and everything, but its exploitable. If he mash jab he will punish your recovery.
Same thing with avoinding jump ins with slide. I play against a Ryu that does OS Sweep in his jumps even footsies to avoid that. Also don’t forget that crMK has a total of 17f. Pretty much a backdash that its 5f faster than yours.
And why the hell you are going to bjHP if you guess DF G? To get grabbed by U1 on your landing?
If you guess he is going to DF G use HK.ST already. You become airborne 2f earlier (harder to eat a massive combo if you guess wrong) and do way more damage, meter, stun and you still have a shitload of momentum.
Not true at all. From a lot of dive kick set ups that actually have proper timing for the ambiguous mix ups Akuma can actually land late enough that he is not only negative, he is punishable. It’s about knowing which ones are punishable and which ones aren’t.
In fact from the one I showed you Akuma is at least -2 which means Vega can throw him and he has to tech or use something invincible.
17 frames is the same time frame as Shoto c.MK and top level shotos do this against bad dive kick set ups consistently. I do this crap all the time against other Akuma players. It’s a technique that is tried and true at high level.
Edit: Actually 17 frames is faster than Akuma’s c.MK by 3 frames!
The slide is more an option against cross up Tatsu than dive kick. I personally would use c.MK because of the faster recovery.
This is a tightly timed flip throw (Like within 2 frames of the perfect timing), lazier timings Akuma is still airborne which resets him in the air which makes U1 impossible. Either way the Akuma player has to react immediately and also have U1 stocked. These are factors to consider before doing this.
You of course can also just do nothing on the jump back and only use j.HP when it might kill.
ST can be baited by empty jump for a full punish. Jump back is one of the safer options out of this because it also escapes “on time” empty palms into low.
Though yes you can use HK.ST if you want to call him out specifically on DF Grab.
If Vega has time to do crMK on wake up then the opponent is not timing his meaty attack properly. It means Vega has 8 frames of start up that means the meaty attack was NOT active or poorly spaced as Vega was waking up which is faulted on the opponent. Hyakki Gojin is active all the way to the ground, there is no way it should miss Vega on wake up if well spaced and timed. What exactly can Vega do on wake up other than block? Nothing. If the opponent has an active frame overlaying Vega when Vega wakes up then he has to block, there is no other option since none of his attacks have invincible frames on start up. He can block, he can back dash (and get punished on recovery) or he can back slash (and get punished on recovery) otherwise, if he does get away with anything else, then it’s 100% the opponent’s fault.
Gouki has no reason to bait a ST at all. He just needs to do DF K that will land as counter hit into a 400dmg combo.
If you escaped a whiff DF P into crLK with your jbHP, it means that crLK would get counter hitted by a reversal ST. If anything, using ST against whiff DF P crLK will make you be reseted in the air, while trying an bjHP will only give him a free combo into sweep.
Sorry, but bjHP is not a better option than ST against DF mixups… in any situation.
And in those late dive kicks setups that are avoidable by crMK, it its easily exploitable. The thing is that they have to be prepared to it. It its an option that may work wonder in a FT2 tournament format. But it won’t take you far in long sets against Goukis that know what they are doing.
Trust me, I’ve done a lof of experiments with crMK against Gouki’s vortex options.
In that case, a simple jiLK nails your crMK pretty hard while doing everything that jiHK does. Except for much lesser damage, stun and blockstun.
Did you even fucking read what I said? Seriously you didn’t or else you wouldn’t make that point. Here let me highlight that for you.
You can’t meaty it off a throw without making it 100% obvious that you are trying to dive kick. There’s no mix up in doing it meaty. If I am doing it meaty I’m telling you “Please just block” because I want to play a ground game. And at that point it isn’t a vortex, it’s a safe jump. And if I have to do that THAT IS TO YOUR BENEFIT!
Seriously I addressed this IN MY POST. Did you even bother to read?
He has no reason to bait it, but he does have a reason to empty DF. Thus my point stands.
Back jump is the universal answer to that mix up (unless you are T-Hawk.) because it is the minimal risk option. You can try other things, but back jump will beat 2 out of the 3 options and also won’t get you hit for a full combo.
The palm safe jump is actually a weak mix up overall. It just doesn’t do enough damage against anyone use knows how to challenge it.
No no no it isn’t. Does anyone fucking listen? I’m not talking about the obvious mid level Akuma timings, I’m talking about the actually mix ups that will mix up top level players. The ones you can’t develop simple blocking techniques like shifting back and forth to cover both sides.
…That Akuma player sucked.
j.LK? If you are doing it against j.LK you already made a mistake by trying it against a normal jump instead of a DF where it might work.
sigh I give up, have fun getting mixed up. I get tired of even trying to explain things to people on SRK because no one listens. They just argue.
nevermind i am wrong. vega has for powerful game! why I even posting here! obviously waste of time, anyway, thread turn from great zeusius maximus to strong vega game wake up talk! yes, dis good?
c-ya
lolwat.
Anyway, please, do give up.
This way we can actually having discussions without some omniscient person trying to shove the truth down our throats. This way it takes all the fun away.
Vega is just as broken as Gen. God forbid anyone other than a shoto ever wins anything.
Sol will never stop talking at you guys if you keep responding. For as many pages as it takes.
Well. If they ever nerf Claw because he won that tournament.
God forbid what they will be doing to Makoto, Evil Ryu and Gen.
Yep clearly what I said. Or maybe I said Akuma Vega is an even match up and Vega at least has a few things going for him on defense.
I love how I explain something in a post and it is immediately followed by you talking about some crap that I had already addressed in that exact same post.
Meaty dive kick? The fact you were even talking about that says everything I need to know. Aka you don’t understand the vortex at all. Meaty dive kick nets you no mix up options which is why you don’t do it against anyone worth their salt.
that cr.mk is nice. akuma is weird. just tried akuma’s little setup, it’s so hard to make it ambiguous. to actually make that setup meaty, you can’t walk too far or else it can’t be meaty. so basically, akuma can either do a meaty setup or an ambiguous setup, but not both. the cr.mk beats ambiguous setup
Just a note about HK ST, you have to guess DF grab before he even jumps because you wont have the charge unless you forfeit standing block.
backdashes and backflips aren’t reversible. Meatys will result in you getting hit.
and here I was thinking I was good at dealing with the vortex when I was dealing with mid level Akuma players.
If you play in the US, there are 2-3 Akuma players who actually know the vortex well. If you play outside of there I’ve seen only a handful. If you play in Japan, you probably know it well.