I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said OP…but the reason I don’t think it’s that big of a deal is because Capcom has admitted to this concept from the very beginning…
In an interview with Ono(don’t have the source. I’m looking for it) this was said about Street Fighter 4:
So I mean its not really surprising to me that Capcom is going in this direction. This direction makes money. More players = more money. More money = Happy capcom. So of course they’re gonna keep making games this way and of course other companies are bound to follow suit. Just be happy for the good times we’ve had thus far, sigh heavily, try to enjoy the games we have now, and frequently go back to enjoy the classics.
Thanks for the read. It was good to see someone else notices the impending decline.
The problem is that developers (or at least the one that gets attention here) aren’t concerned with introducing anything new and exciting to fighters. They’re just recycling what has been working X years, and any new mechanics are created solely for the purpose of making the game more accessible and creating “The Daigo Illusion” (Ultras, X-Factor, Rage in Tekken 6, etc.) with the exception of Focus Attacks.
Name a character besides Magneto that Storm and Sentinel couldn’t run away from.
I actually play SSF4 and I wasn’t aware that people are still mashing.
That’s not what he said at all. What he’s saying is that defence tends to be methodical whereas rushdown tends more towards chaos. Method will always be better than chaos for a credibly competitive game.
Whether defence or offence tend toward method or madness is something else. There’s plenty of defensive play that’s just completely stupid.
I fail to see how this is a problem at all. I see this kind of sentiment all over the place, and I can’t understand why you wouldn’t want to make things easier to do.
Looking at the Ono bit, the depth is still there, but it looks like the aim in easing accessibility was to make some of the inputs more lenient. I mean, look at BlazBlue which has a five frame buffer for inputs which I think is very inviting. If you do it right, making the inputs easier helps streamline the learning process so you can get in and play the game. Of course, there’s still the depth of the game to explore.
And for you guys complaining about fighters being easier, most of the new fighters have it made considering what happened to Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Instead of simplifying some of the techniques from Melee like wavedashing, it instead gutted a lot of the mobility options that made Melee what it was/is and removed hitstun so combos are either very tough or impossible. That and other assorted changes made the game ultimately too defensive for some tastes, including myself. So in short, Brawl was made more accessible, and aside from a 10 frame buffer (which I think is too much), it did so by removing depth and not reducing technical barriers.
And to top it off: Better execution means access to more options.
I like how some people in this thread argue that big damage ultras in SF4 made the game more defensive, but big damage XF3s in MVC3 make the game more offensive.
Because it diminishes a learning process. That’s the whole point of playing a game and finding interest in it. Like, lets say for instance you rented Infamous 2 and played it. It was simple. Is there any value/entertainment there really? Yeah, it was cool and you had some fun…but are you really going to care about it/want to look into it more/think about it? Probably not.
If you rented or bought COD Modern Warfare I and turned on the hardest difficulty and had fun but couldnt beat it you’d probably be more interested in learning why you couldnt take out that sniper, should have shot that guy on the right first and not the far left…etc
It’s a learning process. In short, games with balance diminish a learning process because you can play any character and be good to go. It doesnt matter advantages/disadvantages anymore. It’s less thinking for you. Now you can just pick up your controller, no need of research and be good to go.
Yeah, you’re not getting the point.
Ultras and X Factor are not the only parts of the game. Look at the game before these options are accessible. (Or a good idea to use in X Factors case because using lvl 1 or lvl 2 X Factor IMO is a horrible idea if the other person has not used their X Factor yet. LVL 3 X is just tooooooo strong not to camp out with a solid anchor.)
EX: We are playing SF4. Ryu VS Ken. I’m Ryu…youre ken.
I have my ultra now…you dont. I have no EX meter but ultra ready to go. You ARE NOT going to jump in at me. You are now more defensive towards me because of this ultra. You have ultra and two EX bars. I’m NOT going to miss my combos or jump in or else I will eat FADC ultra and die. If you’re playing Rose…are you gonna jump in at her? SF is about limiting options and SF4 limited the most options FAST due to Damage output and the cost of making a mistake.
MVC3 is heavily weighted on offensive characters. Just look at the cast. It’s mostly characters that can be aggressive or characters than can do both…there are like 5 characters that can be effectively defensive and do well. Thus, its an offensive game.
X Factor can be used at any time with no risk…its an offensive tool. Ultras have risk. It’s a defensive tool.
And this has to do more with finding depth in the game, not it being difficult to learn controls for. Execution does not equal depth. L-Canceling in Melee requires execution, but it required next to no thought process aside from very specific situations.
And this example has to deal with strategy, nothing with execution or aiming.
Then let’s go back to the days where we have broken characters and and really crappy characters then.
Yet I can bait you into doing a DP and then beat the living crap out of you.
You may not say it, but I get the impression that you’re concerned about the depth more than you are about easier execution. Your response to my post had nothing to do with execution.
Going by that logic any joe schmoe can pick a random character in VS, VF4-5, or GGAC without prior knowledge or exp and go even with top players in short order.
He’s talking about technical skill and execution. I see what your saying about learning a game though, and I agree but I’d say it’s much more important for new players to learn when and why to do a move whereas how. The fun is learning how to play the game, not learning how to SRK. New players often get frustrated with execution before they can even consider the fun stuff (mixups, footsies, etc.)
balance in anyway is not a negative thing that would hurt the games, the most post the op makes, its more obvious that he dont knows what he is talking about, if you (the op) really belive that having a good balance between chars diminish the learning process (lol), you are without any trace of doubt truly clueless about the subject
having an balanced roster in no way makes it easy to play, it only means that everyone has a good chance to compete, and this is something that every good designer should to have as a goal, there would be still disdadvantages but this wouldn mean that you would be helpless because of them
are you aware that what you said is even more dumb than what the op posted, if it looks chaotic to you you should look more closely, seriously people make whatever dumb shit just to justify their point of view
if he was refering to technical skill he wouldnt be talking about balance, execution heavy games doesnt equal depth, im not against on making the games more accesible on the execution departament, that lets the people focus on the strategy aspect of the game, of course making it too easy can hurt the game if not made well
edit
btw technical skill is not only that you are able to do a move or a combo, its also about knowing when and how to use the tools that you have, and until now, i have not watched so far a random scrub winning against a skilled player despite how scrub friendly the new games seems to be
Go make your own game. Not even trolling. That what I am working towards, even if I never finish it. Even if it were doomed to resides in Poverty Hell, I would at least have something to show for it.
SF2 had some of the highest damage in the SF series. One combo could easily stun and the following combo would finish the round. You literally can have one mistake end the round yet SF2 is still one of the best games.