Fighting game rant. Enter at your own risk

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
41

about balance…

hmm, i’m under the opinion as someone posted earlier that balance gets lost when there are too many variables in the equation. the concept exists, but i don’t think there’s a way to implement it. i think it depends on the definition of balanced though… if it was defined as “a player will have a 50% chance of winning a match against an opponent of equal skill, regardless of characters used” then i don’t think it’s possible. not without major sacrifices to variety in attacks. besides, i think that balance and playability is dependent on level of skill. balance on one level will probably leave the game unbalanced at other points during the game’s lifespan (which again, has been argued here). i do think that it should be possible to have more characters playable without being an automatic loss than there are in most of the popular fighting games today, but i don’t think balance is realistic just as part of the nature of software having unintended things found over the course of time.

42

It boils down to this- if you’re getting this pissed about the way the game is designed/programmed/played by other people, it might be time to just stop playing. I’m not being sarcastic, this is my honest opinion. If something that’s supposed to be fun or challenging or exciting is just aggravating you horribly, you probably shouldn’t do it anymore.

43

Bottom Line is this: A Fighting game is about picking a character that best fits your individuality and competing with him/her and being able to win with him/her. If you pick a character just because he can win at a higher level is a disservice to yourself. Sure, a fighting game is about winning, but it’s also about winning with the character of your prefference and if this weren’t true then the games woulndn’t ofer 20 character lineups for their game. Consequentially, while most people many of you would perceive to be scrubs would probably pick characters that look cool(like Akuma), that doesn’t mean that a serious fighting game player does not have the individuality that dictates what types of characters they tend to pick. I personally tend to gravitate towards evil looking characters, that’s just me and I think picking a character that best represents your perception is half the fun of a fighting game. Im not asking for perfect balance, and Im not asking for the top tiers to be toned down, Im merely asking for lower tiers to be given the things that anyone can realize they obviously lack, because if the character YOU really want to play can’t ever win, then wether you would like to admit it or not, you are still cheating yourself of have the fun, and thus wasting your time. But then again that’s just the way I look at it.

44

You’re asking for lower tiers to be given the things that anyone can realize they obviously lack. The thing you have to realize is that Capcom and even the players have no idea how the tiers were gonna shape up to be in the future. They didn’t know about cable Ahvb. they didn’t know about sentinel unfly. They didn’t know about magneto infinite. They didn’t know about storm runaway. And the beta testers that were testing the game didn’t know about them. AT THE TIME, Capcom designers believed the game was balanced. And I’m sure it probably was when nobody would runaway with storm or ahvb with cable. They didn’t give the lower tiers like Chun-li anything because they didn’t see anything wrong with the balance at the time.

Spider-Dan got like 50+ wins on the beta testing of the game using Shuma-Gorath. They toned him down. Tiers take time to develop and figuring them out BEFORE the game actually comes out isn’t as obvious as you think.

As for your other stuff:

Akuma wasn’t given EX moves because he can use 3 supers.

45

When I first played MvC2 I was never told of any of the glitches that where found. Within two days me and my friends were all aware of the power of cable. Within two weeks we all knew Sentinel had too much range and power. Within a month of playing we knew half the characters wouldn’t win in a serious fight. If I knew that, then they should have known that after having been working on the game for more then a year. I just don’t buy that, Im sorry.

As for Akuma, his 3 supers haven’t allowed him to win a major yet now have they? Exactly.

46

God I love ranting about fighting games. It is an interesting niche category to get involved in.

I agree with the whole - if you dont like it, play something else motto. Except that most of the time that doesnt work, because fighting games need competition, if you dont get the community to play as well, then youre fucked.

Anyway, my thing on balance is - Capcom has shitty balance in games, its just what they do, everyone of their games will inevitably have something broken… that to me makes the game fun… cause its not so much being left at a disadvantage that quirks me, but just the complete abuse that will occur because of it. But what are you to do? Make the most of it. I dislike the lack of options in games, which is the main drawback to low tier characters in capcom games… they dont have anything to do. Give them more shit to do, and theyll have at least something more to fight with. But it cant just be the characters, or just the engine to make shit balanced, it has to be both. Like parrying and roll cancelling, it gives everyone an option/more options but it still makes the better characters that much better.

But hey, whatever… thats just Capcom, theres still a bunch of problems with SNK, Sammy, and VF games… yet even with all its crappy brokenness, Capcom is still fairly popular around here.

47

well i envision this system for allowing developers to quickly patch arcades - give every arcade a network card and an ethernet connection. whenever new changes are made, capcom can send the update patches to all their arcade machines via some kind of centralized server. there will be some kind of security protocol implemented of course to make sure only capcom can send the updates. the arcades should also have hard drives so that they can restore previous versions of the patches if anything goes wrong.

now this system isn’t all that hard to implement, just expensive. however it would ensure for MORE balanced fighting games.

48

[quote=The Demon]
I still believe in my heart that it is completely possible for a game to find it’s balance. What’s so hard about programming that prevents Capcom from giving 3s Akuma an Ex fireball? What’s so hard about giving Hugo or Q an attack or option that allows them to back off faster rushdown characters? What’s so hard about increasing Chun-Li’s stun on her crouching fierce or crouching mid to allow her to at least combo into a fucking super in MvC2? What’s so hard about increasing the damage on Zangief’s FAB so that it can do enough damage to allow him to even be taken seriously in MvC2? What’s so hard about giving Akuma and Wolverine increased vitality and damage in their supers so they could at least stand a chance, or give Akuma back his one level raging demon from X-Men Vs. Street Fighter so he could at least be mildly intimidating? What’s so hard about giving Hayato an extra move so that he can defend against keepaway players, or a range attack that doesnt leave him open afterwards for a million years?
QUOTE]

I’ll try to answer these questions 1 by 1. Granted, I’m not Capcom, but I believe this is what they were thinking.

  1. Akuma is the only character that can use 3 supers by only picking 1 super art. Therefore EX moves were not given to him.
  2. Why does she need increased stun when she can just use one of plenty assists that would help her combo into her supers.
  3. FAB is one of the the most damaging supers in the game (gotta rotate the joystick).
  4. Akuma has always been a low stamina character. Same with Wolverine. Wolverine had high damaging supers in all of the past games (Xmen, MSH, XvsSF,MvsSF, MvC). He was pretty much top tier in all of them. Akuma can cancel into a super after any landed hurricane kick. Since they upped the priority on that move and therefore left the damage of his supers the same.
  5. That’s where Capcom thought the assists would come in. Doom/sentinel assist to protect you, Capcom/blackheart against the keepaway.

Demon:
Yup. Akuma didn’t win any major 3rd strike tourneys. But he was pretty much banned from all 2nd impact tourneys except for ECC, which he won. Capcom toned him down to actually make him a playable character.

The capcom programmers are good programmers. They’re not hardcore fighting game players. I bet you anything that none of them has won a tournament for a capcom fighting game. They aren’t qualified to figure out what the final tiers are gonna be. That’s why they beta test. But even the hardcore gamers couldn’t fix it. They thought they fixed Shuma… but they were really screwing him over.

49

If your serious about that Idea, then yeah I actually do agree with that. Just as long as they never tone down characters that are broken, just make other characters equally as broken. It’s the easier way to balance a game comparatively to what Sammy did with reload where they incresed/decreased the animations of hundreds of moves for each character. I think if you have characters that brake the game, then allow the other characters to be broken in similar ways.

50

My Point still stands though. If you see some characters are way stronger, then you have to make adjustments so the weaker ones have more options or more damage. And Im not stupid, I have been knows about spinning the stick for Zangief, but even with spinning the stick, it does laughable damage.

That doesn’t change the fact that they nerfed him and plenty of others way too much. You don’t balance a game by making characters unbroken, you balance a game by making more characters broken. In some cases you still need to nerf a character sometimes, and this is probably one of those occasions, but they still nerfed him way too much if he has no hopes of ever winning in anyones hands.

51

Then what are you asking for? Because it seems that you’re sitting on the fence. You sound like a prima donna that says "Oh I’m very humble, I want my fans to treat me like a regular person" where in reality you relish the fact that these people would want to pay you to wash your car. You want balance, but you don’t want balance…just so you can come off as Oh I’m not bitching. Is that correct?

People like you have been bitching about balance since SF2 came out. They scream foul saying that Dhalsim sucks in VS, or Juggernaut is horrid, or E-Honda sucks ass. But the second Capcom does anything to balance the next iterition of the game, people bitch even more because some other schmuck becomes top tier.

Oh yes…by your wonderful suggestions that you put up earlier right? Please, tell me how will making Gief have a more damaging FAB stop Magneto Rushdown? Or Sentinal lockdown? Or CapCom assist? How will it defend better against a tri jump rushdown, or ANHBx3?

I know that you don’t want Gief to be the top tier, or even soar like 3 different brackets, but seriously, your suggestions seem more aesthetic than practical. It’s not going to close the gap between top tier or the rest, nor is it going to make him rise higher than his current tier bracket, because the reality is, increasing the damage of the FAB does not increase his ability to defend against the tactics that are keeping him down in the first place.

If top tier could avoid Gief’s FAB in the first place, why would a more powerful FAB change that? As well with Akuma’s Lvl 1 Raging demon suggestion…if players can avoid his lvl 3, then why would they have trouble…even incremental trouble…in avoiding a lvl 1 Raging demon?

That is the problem because you say Oh you should choose a character that fits your pesornality but the problem is…in adding these suggestions that you made, or saying Oh they should add moves that counters that BS of top tier it ultimately leads to LESS VARIETY between characters.

I mean you asked why not improve Hayato to have a ranged attack that leave him open for a million years. What do you want? A beam special? A fireball? That minor adjustment itself would have made Hayato LESS Hayato and MORE Shotokan. You see in that simple example right there, that in creating this artificial balance (by your suggestion) it decreases the variety/personality that you so adamandantly defend that people should keep in mind.

You brought up this discussion and it’s good. I think we do need to take balance more seriously. But it seems that you are coming in with answers that are equal if not no better than to what Capcom developers consider. And those suggestions like I said before are more aesthetic than pratical.

Ultimately if you want to create a balance in the game like SF3:3S, you should get on your arcade and play like the pros play…with the dedication that the American and Japan pros play and show them all.

52

At the time, it was possible to win with those weaker characters (with the exception of roll, dan, servbot which were obvious joke characters). Capcom programmers and beta testers believed that the gap between the top and bottom wasn’t as big then as it certainly is now. That’s why they didn’t add any changes.

Again, FAB still does good damage in terms of a single super. If you look at the regular damage a super does (not comboing into, or after), then FAB beats out a whole bunch of them in the damage department. Capcom saw this and figured that the damage was good where it was. Of course they didn’t know about AHVB x 3.

Some programmers did this. The result:

SF2 Rainbow edition.

:clap: :clap:

And Akuma almost won B4 3rd strike tourney. Hsien Chang came in second using akuma and Yang. B4 was the precursor to the evo series. He is a very playable character, even if Capcom toned him down from 2nd impact.

53

Pretty much the most ignorant comment I’ve read on competitive gaming in a long, long time.

54

I don’t know what to say to you, you either completely dodged the point im trying to make or you completely missed the bigger point I was trying to make. Either way someone as close minded as you doesn’t deserve a reply.

55

Yes, and it would also allow (as online play matures) competition between arcades. In the shorter term, between arcades near each other, while in the longer term, nationwide or even worldwide competition. Wouldn’t it be nice to walk into an empty arcade, but still find competition?

There are a lot of technical hurdles to be overcome, but if the market is there it would happen.

56

How will having Akuma have EX moves change anything? If anything, if they chose to, they will make him more like Shin Akuma (which is broken naturally) due a possible EX move for his air fireball will be duo air fireball.

Tell me how exactly having his EX moves will increase his chances to win? I betcha that’s the question that most designers are asking each day of programming.

57

  1. Because every other character can combo into super with short short super. Chun Li is the ONLY one who cannot do this. she got jacked. why should she have to rely on assists to get in the super when no one else does?

  2. FAB does jack shit damage. it tickles. the ratio of difficulty to land super versus the damage is ridiculous. its impossible to land an FAB, you can just counter with assist or just plain old jumping back. how simple is that. if you can land one, you should be rewarded by an instant KO imo. gief is a joke in mvc2. also, you mash an AHVB and i dare say it does way more damage AND it can hit an assist at the same time as well. besides we all know dan’s level 3 suicide super is the most damaging super in the game.

  3. they have low stamina and lose like half their life just by being hit from three or so assists. not only do they have low life, they have low damage dealing capabilities. meanwhile sentinel has the most damaging and fatal combos in the game and takes barely any damage from his attacks and has super armor. garbage balancing.

ps you will never land an air combo hurricane kick xx super with akuma. nor will you land a simple c. lk hurricane kick xx super. his rush down is garbage.

the guy was suggesting improvements to make the lower tier more playable. he was asking rhetorical questions. either way the answers you provided just show that they badly need to improve the low tier.

under the system i described of connecting arcades to the internet, making these patches to improve the characters wouldn’t be all that hard to do.

58

It will make his strength, which is offense,a little easier. An Akuma has no chouice but to dodge a fireball of parry it, and if he does that hes allowing himself to be cornered and hit, and being hit with AKuma is not an option. At the very least he needs an ex fireball(that cant be cancelled with a one hit fireball like his hcb+p) so that he can at least set up runaway chun-li’s and allow him to be able to do something.

59

Fine then…short version,

Take for example (you example) if you added more damage to gief’s FAB, just as you suggested. Explain to me how exactly will that make him improve his ranking/balance in the game?

Think about it, improving Gief’s FAB damage would that prevent tactics like Magneto rushdown, or Sentinal tactics, or Storm rushdown?

I know that you expressed at great lengths that you don’t want the top tier to be toned down, nor do you want to have lower tiers to be top tier or like soar up the tier scale, but it just seems your suggestions that you made earlier are more

Aesthetic aka for looks and not for practicality.

The very same tactics used to defeat Gief with a normally powered FAB will be used against a Gief that has a more powerful FAB (as per your suggestion earlier).

The other thing I mentioned is Hayato.

If you request Hayato to have a ranged attack that does leave him open with a long recovery time…what do you want for him? Do you want him to have a beam special?

I used this example to explain, the suggestions that you have saying Characters should get extra moves, just to deal with the BS of to tier characters will end up going against your opinion that:

Player should pick character according to their personalities

Why is that? Like I said in the example above, if you give Hayato a range move to prevent him to have a long recovery time, it might end up to be a beam special. It might NOT, but it’s leaning towards what would easily balance the game.

In that idea, what Hayato ends up to be is less his character and more like a Marvel or shoto character…something that goes against your idea of having characters with personality…and picking them based on your personality.

Ultimately when you ask you want balance it comes down to making character less unique to each other, thus lessening the variety that you so adamantedly hold dear.

60

Thanks for agreeing with me fish, its good to know someone understands that what im saying isnt too much to ask for. And I like your Idea, maybe you should be pres. of capcom.