the counter system in doa balances the game out perfectly.
getting your ass kicked? hit a button.
BAM, you’re even.
every character has this.
and we all know just how awesome doa is.
in my opinion, its not the game, its the people who use the easiest characters to win. they don’t use a character they wanna relate, or the character they personally think is cool. they pick the character that is gonna win them the match.
Some nitpicking…
Are you implying that fighting games are more skilled than RTS and FPS? I would’t argue this route. RTS and FPS have their tourney scenes and I think they’re way more developed than the fighting game scene. I’d actually lean towards fighting games being the least competitive of the bunch. You can play fighting games against weaker people or people that have the same level as you. People can scrub out at both. How would you explain pro FPS/RTS players? Theyre recognized by major companies and get lots of coverage. Its certainly not a skilless genre. Why aren’t people making the same arguments when they get raped by a pro FPS player? I’m not involved in the FPS or RTS scene, but I’m sure I’ve heard people whine about camping and other stuff, yet people are still playing apparently. It can’t be that these games just don’t have broken things and that all players are good at them, because that simple isn’t true. A lot of people suck at FPS yet they still play? Then that means that sucking at fighting games can’t be the only reason they don’t play that.
All the big tournaments are played in LAN centers where you will get the chance to be face to face with your opponent. Most of the serious players play in these tournaments, they don’t just play at home on the internet. While I do agree that hiding behind a computer is a draw to some people, I don’t see how going ‘face to face’ has anything to do with skill in a game.
Pointing to Sirlin doesn’t make your argument strong. Thats a clear logical fallacy. I’m not going to bother getting out a book for this, but theres some dumb latin word I can use for this which essentially means ‘appealing to authority’. Instead of making an argument, you tell this guy he’s stupid because Sirlin said something else. Thats dumb. Think for yourself, and outline exactly what the guy said wrong. Don’t just weasel out with that.
I hate Sirlin for that website. He’s a smart guy so I know he knew what he was doing when he made the website. All it does is gather a flock of unquestioning sheep that believe Sirlin is god. Sirlins stuff is just his opinion. Sure, he sets a good argument and makes points, but in the end theres no factual or concrete evidence that makes him ‘right’ and everyone else ‘wrong’.
Lastly, don’t confuse a case where something happens a certain way as if thats the only possible explanation for it. That is, people don’t claim something is broken only when they lose against it. I know that when I play SvC and beat someone with Zero the character is stupid broken. Just as I can look at 3s and I know that the big 3 are just better than everyone else. If people don’t want to play a game where their best chance of winning is choosing between 3 characters, thats their choice. You have no right to tell them they’re not allowed to prefer other games. If you really want to get down to it, I think 3s and CvS2 are scrubby games compared to old skool SF2. I think A3 is Capcom’s best game. If you disagree with me, is it because you’re a scrub? Is it because you just weren’t good enough, and thats why Capcom had to add things like supers and throw softening and other stuff to give you a better chance to win because you didn’t have the skill for it? Or are these just empty accusations that may or may not be true? Its the latter. Learn to accept other’s opinions man.
Though I don’t completely disagree with you on all points, Serpent, I believe Zig was simply trying to cite the (completely true) scrubiness of people preferring online gaming to arcade/LAN gaming, simply because you can sit at home and not have to see the guy who’s beating you. Ever notice how many people talk shit on SRK but how few (relatively) fights there are at major gatherings? It’s the same concept. Keyboards and monitors make them feel froggier.
N
I think that 3S is one of the most balanced fighting games out there. Besides characters like Q and Twelve, pretty much everyone has a fair shot at kicking ass and taking names. Sure, Chun/Ken/Yun might be the best, but that doesn’t mean that a damn good Dudley or Akuma/Gouki couldn’t beat them. IMO, 3S is more a game of knowing your character than knowing tiers inside and out. My Akuma regularly beats on people in 3S, even against a really good Ken player (who parries damn near half the attacks I throw at him, very frustrating).
Getting upset over it isn’t the way to go about solving the problem. Bitching on an internet message board, while fun, isn’t productive. I know Akuma isn’t top tier in 3S, but that’s not stopping me from learning his ins and outs, his strengths/weaknesses against other characters, etc. I hope to put on a good showing at my first Evo this year, and if I don’t, then I’ll go back and work on my game for next year’s Evo.
You can’t expect things to change if you don’t work at them. Hell, tiers change a hell of a lot, and they don’t just because some guy at a computer says they do. They change because people like Daigo and J Wong are out there, working on their game, finding new strategies and combos and ways to attack.
My point is: Don’t bitch about it. You have the game, play it, get better at it, see how you do in a tourney, and win or lose, go back and improve your game. Whining about it won’t help the problem, since Capcom doesn’t revise their games much any more, so the solution is better yourself.
FPS/RTS: I recognise these as serious competitive games, as indicated by the continued player support and huge tournament scene. Top players in these games deserve just as many prop’s as those that succeed in fighting games. I didn’t intend to suggest that these games were skilless, but you can’t deny that the way they are played makes them more accessible to casual gamers, and caters better to those with no intentions of developing serious skills at the games they play. I just don’t think fighting games (on average) provide the same opportunities to less hardcore players (which is a big reason why fighters have taken such a huge nose-dive in recent years IMO). I don’t have a solution to the problem for fighters, but I do think there’s enough reasons for the point to be considered.
LAN tourneys and EVO have just as many “not-so-top-players”. These aren’t the people that bother me - they love their game, and make the extra effort to get involved. It’s the ones that never care enough to go beyond that who aren’t really adding anything to their scene. The thing with arcade fighters is that you can’t really play at all if you don’t get involved in the real thing. Internet play lets you think you’re involved, when the truth is you may just be fooling yourself. But like you say, to each his own.
I didn’t point to Sirlin as a “Get out of Jail Free” card. I pointed to him because it’s plain obvious Demon hasn’t read any of the educated ideas available to him before drawing his conclusions. Ignorance is bliss? Forgive me then for trying to help give someone an alternate perspective by taking advantage of existing resources. In future I’ll concentrate on repeating every good point that already exists, thereby making my thoughts “more strong” and “logically sound”. (Actually I would have referenced other articles/posts but simply didn’t have the time to dig up that many links again.)
I thought SvC = broken might come up. That is indeed a legitimate use of the term, since the game fails under competitive conditions. I’m just trying to highlight the fact that people run to that term to solve far too many problems, when the reality is that they simply don’t like the game that’s been put in front of them. Broken is a fine term, but I don’t think people should use it to explain-away things that they don’t like in a subjective way. I consider the term better saved for objective things like the SvC engine, but maybe that’s just me.
All the Capcom games you list have succeeded under competitive conditions, and even though I wouldn’t rank them as you do, I’m not going to debate the matter, since it’s pure opinion. The aim of my original post was to highlight Demon’s misconceptions regarding the concept of balance. In hindsight my post was probably too harsh in tone, and I should have left it with Thongboy Bebop, who was doing just fine on his own.
Which is why Daigo and J Wong only use top tiers in tournies. :wow:
Problem with 3S IMO is that it’s the most “balanced” game that’s still so damn top tier heavy come tourney time. It’s not that other character’s aren’t good, 'cause mid tiers are hella good. Just that, if you look at what’s valuable and where damage comes from, Yun, Ken, and Chun are better than everybody else in just about every important aspect.
Plus, some characters are good for only one reason, or just suck. The balance is WAY too sub-system dependant in my eyes. Yes, so-and-so kicks ass with low tiers like Sean, Twelve, Q, etc. They’re still piece of shit characters.
On paper, yes the game is balanced, but the character variety just isn’t consistent. And quite frankly, I don’t see have the tiers have changed much at all. The game is hella old, and the top 3 have been up there since almost the beginning IIRC.
If you wanna be a KSK or a Clockw0rk or a Vegita X and regularly beat top players with (character/team of your choice), you can do it. Sometimes it’s just really hard.
That is all.
The fact that you can win with them can completely circumvent the fact that the characters are bad.
There’s some crazy post Joe Zaza went on about how when people prove themselves that way, people want to just believe it’s magic or something. Like Vegita X beating top players in money matches, or KSK beating Ricky Ortiz (who went on to “beat” Daigo, and consider that Chun Li counters the SHIT out of Alex via character design) at Evo 2k3, Chipp getting final 8 at Evo, whatever…not only stuff like that, but there are plenty of people who play Dudley who can hold their own vs most Chun Li players in 3S, Karin players who can handle Akuma players in A3, etc etc. But people, for some INSANE reason either ignore these things, or think it’s just the player, and that somehow the character/team/whatever they’re using somehow has zero potential.
Makes it easier to accept that they’re not dedicated or jst good enough to win with who they want to play as…?
edit: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1717619&postcount=282
At a tournament, I don’t see any problem with this. It’s a bunch of people trying their best to win. If there’s an easier and/or more reliable way to win, by all means use it.
At the casual level, however, I can see how this is a problem. One person using a top-tier character for the sole purpose of winning can easily ruin everyone else’s fun.
This could also apply for anyone who presents their thoughts in a well-written manner. Look at all of the people who hang on Bill O’Reilly’s every word, or people who agree unthinkingly with people like Michael Moore. Now, I’m not accusing anyone of being a mindless Sirlin groupie, though I do know they exist, but he does put out some good points, and at least his message is worth something. Although, it is sort of weird that he keeps pointing to MvC2 for examples of good balancing.
I understand that MVC2 is VERY unbalanced as well as other games, but I doubt that Capcom and the programmers knew that their games would be taken to the level that the SF community has taken it too. I think they somewhat had an idea that marvel was very unbalanced, and thats probably why kens air hurricane kick is over powered, and ryu’s df,df,+pp super takes like half your life, rogues assist1+2 super, Jugg’s headcruch super, anakaris move that lets you make the person the size of servbot, etc… They probably tried to correct the imbalance but goving each character atleast 1 overpowered move. Thats just my look on it.
I don’t understand why expecting better balance is a bad thing. The current version of Reload is what, the third version made? I know people are saying that Reload is balanced by the engine, but I don’t agree with that. They changed a lot of characters from XX to this version that we play now. The first reload sucked from what I’m told. Players petitioned Sammy/Arc whoever really makes the games, until they got the version we have now. As far as I know, the changes were for characters, and the engine stayed the same. One of you GGXX heads shed light on this, if possible, since I’m not 100% certain on this.
I don’t see why its impossible to have perfect balance. Theoretically it should be possible, just extremely hard to do so and thats why it’s never done. I think expecting a certain degree of balance is likely though. But I guess I should explain why I think perfect balance should be theoretically possible. 1+6=7 4+3=7 Different numbers each time, yet the same result. That would be balance. Or how about through 6 games of the NLCS? 3 wins each, same ERA, same runs. Are all the players clones of each other? Nope, different strengths and weaknesses, just happenned to work out that they were evenly matched completely. Will this ever happen again? I don’t know, its not likely, but I think it does show that ‘balance’ is possible with many different components. I want to make it clear that I don’t expect this kind of balance ever, but I do think its possible. Just not realistic to think anybody can do it.
I do think games could be balanced like KOF 98, or #reload, or even GGXX (it wasn’t that bad), or a bunch of other games. When I see something like KOF2k3 and Duo Lon, it’s just retarded because theres no excuse for that, or SvC. So why should I think 3s couldn’t have been balanced better, as well as CvS2? Why don’t I put A3 and MvC2 on that list? Because they couldn’t possible have known the games were broken, and it winds up working out that the games are atleast fun and have some weird balance within them. But I think CvS2 and 3s are simple enough and the fact is that the same characters more or less have been abused ever since the beginning. I know for CvS2 they even did that on purpose, because they were trying to encourage weaker players to play again by giving them simple yet effective options.
In the end I look at it like this: if you think a game is broken and not fun, and you choose not to play it because of that, that’s fine. Thats the price Capcom was willing to pay for not releasing multiple revisions. Play what you think is more balanced, and thats that. Just don’t expect perfect balance because thats neigh impossible to achieve.
Personally, balance really isn’t even that important to me. I play for a fun factor more so than balance. Hell, I like XvSF, and everyone else says the game is ridiculously broken and they think its stupid because of the infinites. I think the infinites are great and give the game a sort of balance because anyone can win off of a mistake. I like games where everyone has something good (GG balancing), instead of the type of games where they just take everything good away from everyone, so that a tiny difference makes another character strong (CvS2 balancing).
If someone can show me exactly why perfect balance is impossible as people have been saying, and why my examples were wrong, please do so because I honestly don’t see why. I would honestly appreciate it…as long as you’re not a dick about it.
IMO Xvsf is a great example of a game that is broken but yet balanced because of it. I mean every characters has like 5 infinites(more or less), so ken has a chance against a rush down magnus, or gief against a runaway storm, etc… Every characters has a chance against anyone in that game.
let me clarify:
At this point, if they FIXED marvel by toning down the top tiers, a LOT of people would quit. WHY? because we are used to our sentinels being able to completely dominate and shut down low tier characters. It’d be like having a super fast computer and then suddenly being forced to go back to using a 486. if capcom had patched mvc2 earlier then it wouldn’t have been a big deal, we’d have been able to handle the change. however, after FOUR years, making drastic changes to balance the game would turn off many people no doubt.
there is no contradiction in the stuff i said. capcom makes broken unbalanced games. most of its games are broken. don’t give me crap about how no game is perfectly balanced. no shit. but some games are more balanced than others. i’m just going to use starcraft as an example. blizzard has honed it with many patches - all three races are vastly different and use vastly different strategies, YET they are ALL playable. this is a stark contrast to mvc2 where you really only have four playable characters out of fifty something. occasionally ppl will dick around with other characters, but not seriously.
so if you look at mvc2 objectively in terms of game quality, it is crap. very broken. however, it is fun. again, only to a small amount of people. most other people usually quit within weeks or monthes after getting pounded by hyper viper beams…
and dont hate on ppl who play fps or rts at a lan. how is it ANY different from playing at an arcade? there are plenty of people who play casually and for fun at the arcade, and they get stomped down repeatedly and never improve. its just as casual. put your quarter up and play. if you suck, you get destroyed. its the same as rts or fps. if you suck, you will get destroyed. how is it more scrub friendly? by the fact that MORE people play it? dont be bitter. fighting games are dead. only hardcore fans are left. so i guess in that way it fosters more skill, because 2d fighters have such a ridiculously small fan base. so yes, playing online games will mean more encounters with newbies, but thats only because MORE people play those games. there are just as many good players.
Yes I know it’s neigh impossible. But…
…it’s not realisitic. Thus if you mean thinking anyone can create perfect balance is unrealistic, then it means it’s impossible to be real…because no one is thinking that perfect balance is realistic…that must mean even designers
[/being a dick]
Thanks for defending me serpent, I agree with everything you said. I like how this person comes in here and is absolutely ready to assume with inmense conviction that Im a scrub and I simply want to play Akuma because “I think his Raging Demon is sssooo teh cool”. That in itself is just wrong in the worst possible way. And the worst part is that I know just by reading what you said that you get pleasure from insulting those that do not agree with you, that is more sad that anything.
I still believe in my heart that it is completely possible for a game to find it’s balance. What’s so hard about programming that prevents Capcom from giving 3s Akuma an Ex fireball? What’s so hard about giving Hugo or Q an attack or option that allows them to back off faster rushdown characters? What’s so hard about increasing Chun-Li’s stun on her crouching fierce or crouching mid to allow her to at least combo into a fucking super in MvC2? What’s so hard about increasing the damage on Zangief’s FAB so that it can do enough damage to allow him to even be taken seriously in MvC2? What’s so hard about giving Akuma and Wolverine increased vitality and damage in their supers so they could at least stand a chance, or give Akuma back his one level raging demon from X-Men Vs. Street Fighter so he could at least be mildly intimidating? What’s so hard about giving Hayato an extra move so that he can defend against keepaway players, or a range attack that doesnt leave him open afterwards for a million years? All of these simple things can go a long way in making more characters playable at a high level, and they wouldn’t even take that long to program. If you don’t think more can be done to balance these games then you might be blind, or maybe you might have an ego so big that you prefer this system so that you can beat others who want to actually play someone else. Then again maybe Im wrong to assume this, after all I dont know you and it wouldn’t be right for me to assume something about you that may or may not be true, like you did to me, now would it?
Im not asking for complete balance, and Im not asking for the top tiers to be toned down(everyone knows that would kill the game) but for god sakes its not that hard to give lower tiered characters one or two more moves that let them do something about the abusable shit that the upper tiers have, it really isn’t and yet you guys cut them way more slack then they need because it’s “hard to program”. Please, I have programmer friends who could balance MvC2 better then Capcom.
People didn’t start winning big tournaments with Sentinel until about a year after MvC2 was out. Most people thought he was only really good, not top tier, so it wasn’t clear how overpowered he was.
This isn’t Starcraft. You can’t just patch an arcade game as easy as a computer game. Do you know how much money will be wasted if Capcom came up with revisions of the same games. Most arcade owners aren’t hardcore fighting game fans and most will not order 3rd strike revision 1 when they already have a working 3rd strike title. Capcom will go bankrupt if that happens. Wasting their resources on revisions that no arcade will ever buy.
Of course, if you insist that it’s so easy, then maybe you should just reprogram the arcade games yourself. You could come up with a new “Rainbow 3rd strike” edition. LOL
most of the time the top shit is the most interesting, cause they have the most options and are the deepest to learn.
toning shit down in mvc2 would jsut take away lots of what makes it interesting. most interesting games id say are impossible to balance, but its obvious they didnt even really try in mvc2. Most gamse tiers arent blatantly obvious to any degree during your newbie stage. But when i first played mvc2, it was obvious that half the chars really sucked because it was just so hard for them to do damage
imo they toned down too many chars from the older VS games in mvc2. the chars that are on top are the ones who got toned down the least, or buffed
You don’t seem to believe that it’s possible to do that in one try. Anyone programming a game the first time can see Chun-Li is useless or any other of those things I cited if they even play the same game they are making. Far more impossible things have been done in this life, And I just don’t buy this “it can’t be done” excuse, it just doesn’t work.
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread, but how would you balance a game before it gets released? An answer more elaborate than “beta test the fuck out of it” would be preferred.